The United Defenders League

[Communist Eraser]

I made a rare appearance in #UDL the last few days too!

And scarred for life. No more bad jokes please "Soviet Claus". *shudder*

[Unibot III]

Hmmm, it seems that also non-members who sometimes join for a lib get the ribbon.

If you have an account on our forum, yes.

[Soviet Canuckistan]

I made a rare appearance in #UDL the last few days too!

And scarred for life. No more bad jokes please "Soviet Claus". *shudder*

So sorry. I have plenty more if you need. Also, Uni, you failed to mention the events in TJN.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Nobody made Santa Klaus jokes this year. This makes me happy, because I couldn't be bothered to deliver vast quantities of coal to the world.

[Jakker]

Jingle Bells, Jakker Smells, Detag every day.

<3

[Eist]

I am interested in why UDL feels it is their business to move into Secularia and unseat the long-term native delegate Korinekia (who is the highest population nation in this entire game) even though he had been online recently and dealt with the raider problem from 2 days ago as he saw fit.

Considering UDL seem to see themselves as the paragon of virtue in this game and not the dirty two-faced loosely organised gang that I currently see them as, what gives them the right to essentially invade the region to mess with it against Korinekia’s wishes? It’s not your region to make these decisions.

Furthermore, considering that this is far from the first time this has happened (although this is the most egregious example I have seen), if UDL really want to be taken seriously as a defender organisation and not just say everywhere in this Forum, they are really going to have to try and stop their members from raiding first. Also, to whomever the puppet that raided the region belongs to, I hope you plan on finishing this “detag” you have undertaken and not leave it in the usual UDL level effort half-assed state that it is in right now.

[Lyanna Stark]

The region was detagged properly. If doing that is what you call raiding a region, TITO has been even less successful at stopping "raids" lately than I thought. I wish you luck in tilting at windmills, dear Eist.

[Soviet Canuckistan]

I am interested in why UDL feels it is their business to move into Secularia and unseat the long-term native delegate Korinekia (who is the highest population nation in this entire game) even though he had been online recently and dealt with the raider problem from 2 days ago as he saw fit.

Considering UDL seem to see themselves as the paragon of virtue in this game and not the dirty two-faced loosely organised gang that I currently see them as, what gives them the right to essentially invade the region to mess with it against Korinekia’s wishes? It’s not your region to make these decisions.

Furthermore, considering that this is far from the first time this has happened (although this is the most egregious example I have seen), if UDL really want to be taken seriously as a defender organisation and not just say everywhere in this Forum, they are really going to have to try and stop their members from raiding first. Also, to whomever the puppet that raided the region belongs to, I hope you plan on finishing this “detag” you have undertaken and not leave it in the usual UDL level effort half-assed state that it is in right now.

Merry Christmas to you too.

[Land filled with People]

The region was detagged properly.

Incorrect. As of the time of this post there are 4 things that I can see left to do before the region is fully 'detagged'.

[Soviet Canuckistan]

The region was detagged properly.

Incorrect. As of the time of this post there are 4 things that I can see left to do before the region is fully 'detagged'.

Then why don't you bother saying those so the natives can have their region restored back to normal instead of using it as a point to bicker with.

[Eist]

The region was detagged properly.

So, Secularia had an embassy with The Black Riders before the raid? The history suggests otherwise. Also, a free tip because I know you have trouble telling the difference -- the nations Endermaan and Matterrun were both responsible for the raid that you were "protecting" against. (You even banned the former from another region recently!). Anyway, I won't look any further as I'm sure this is enough embarrassment for you in one night. You should look yourself!

If doing that is what you call raiding a region, TITO has been even less successful at stopping "raids" lately than I thought. I wish you luck in tilting at windmills, dear Eist.

I would be interested in hearing your definition of a raid considering I've given mine above. In fact, I'll spell it out for you given your unbelievable error above: you unseated an active native and well-respected delegate that dealt with the raid as he saw fit. You commandeered a region to alter the World Factbook Entry to what you wanted against what the delegate, under free sovereignty, had decided.

This is, to me, the exact definition of a raid, and I await your definition with anticipation.

[Land filled with People]

Incorrect. As of the time of this post there are 4 things that I can see left to do before the region is fully 'detagged'.

Then why don't you bother saying those so the natives can have their region restored back to normal instead of using it as a point to bicker with.

Because I was correcting a factually incorrect statement that was besides the point of the discussion. Clearly Korinekia, the NATIVE delegate, didn't care about those 4 things, nor the flag, nor the WFE because he didn't change them when he logged in and dealt with the issue as he saw fit. That is he logged in, banjected some of the raiders and cancelled the closure of embassies, but decided to leave the rest. So why did UDL feel it necessary to change them, against what the native delegate had decided?

[Vladisvok Destino]

Incorrect. As of the time of this post there are 4 things that I can see left to do before the region is fully 'detagged'.

Then why don't you bother saying those so the natives can have their region restored back to normal instead of using it as a point to bicker with.

The region had an active native delegate who from the look of things was dealing with it as he wanted to. Why should UDL, TITO or any other org get involved unless he actually wanted help? And if he had wanted help surely UDL would have been able to move in and endo the native and point out what needed doing, why did UDL need to unseat the delegate to do it?

[Cromarty]

Because we did.

Problem? Deal with it.

I'm sure TITO have better things to do than question how we operate. I mean, they already don't consider us 'real' defenders, so why should they care?

[Vladisvok Destino]

Because we did.

Problem? Deal with it.

Well at least we always know there's one person we can go to for an honest answer on why UDL raids.

[Cromarty]

Because we did.

Problem? Deal with it.

Well at least we always know there's one person we can go to for an honest answer on why UDL raids.

*yawns*

Raid? Hardly. Hostile detag? Possibly.

Do we care about bitching by TITO and others over it? Nope.

Happy holidays all, have a drink and chill out or something.

[Unibot III]

I am interested in why UDL feels it is their business to move into Secularia and unseat the long-term native delegate Korinekia (who is the highest population nation in this entire game) even though he had been online recently and dealt with the raider problem from 2 days ago as he saw fit.

Considering UDL seem to see themselves as the paragon of virtue in this game and not the dirty two-faced loosely organised gang that I currently see them as, what gives them the right to essentially invade the region to mess with it against Korinekia’s wishes? It’s not your region to make these decisions.

Furthermore, considering that this is far from the first time this has happened (although this is the most egregious example I have seen), if UDL really want to be taken seriously as a defender organisation and not just say everywhere in this Forum, they are really going to have to try and stop their members from raiding first. Also, to whomever the puppet that raided the region belongs to, I hope you plan on finishing this “detag” you have undertaken and not leave it in the usual UDL level effort half-assed state that it is in right now.

It's standard policy to detag regions with inactive native delegates if we can and we've always received complaints from 10000 Islands (who believe us to be a "dirty two-faced lossely organised gang") and gratitude from natives who have received the service.

I doubt our detaggers saw that Korinekia had been online, since they were probably focused on the Inactivity date. Furthermore, I doubt very much Korinekia is outraged that his region was restored, but feel free to contact him. However, I agree that 2 days inactive is cutting it fairly thin for doing an inactive native delegate detag, since we usually put those missions at the bottom of our priority list so that they get put off for a week; in this case, it's the holidays so our detaggers got to it earlier than normal.

We do not care about be taking seriously by 10000 Islands or anyone in 10000 Islands as a defender organization -- I think since the day that your delegate told me liberations make regions less safe, was the day I abandoned trust in your organization or your defender standards. Ultimately, we don't give a crap what pundits think of us; we care about what native communities think of us and our service to their regions -- we will listen to real natives who receive service from the UDL and adjust policy to meet native expectations, not other defenders with deep-rooted grudges (coming from a group who regularly is upset that I criticize their policies -- I hope you can come to understand). Have a good day Eist and have a Happy New Year.

- Uni

[Andacantra]

You know, the response to a genuine criticism isn't to tell those with said concern to chill out and go away. Can the UDL not see why people are just a wee bit pissed off over this? When you're doing something which does inherently violate the sovereignty of that region, you should surely check whether that native was active, and if they were, if they -wanted- their region detagged (and pointing out the things that they may want to change).

Part of helping people is communicating with them, not just running about in your own merry way ignoring the potential wishes of those you're trying to help.

I'm sorry if the UDL doesn't like being kicked from the high horse they're on, but you're a high profile organisation, you should actually deal with criticism and perhaps take it seriously. But then you won't, because of aforementioned high horse.

[Communist Eraser]

In an ideal world, defenders would be able to intercept so that the tag-raid won't happen in the first place. (I know game-mechanics make that impossible in reality, but that's another story). I presume that is an acceptable type of defending? If that were to happen, the WFE would of never been changed in the first place.

The difference now is that the tag-raid did happen. So they (tried) to restore the WFE to what it was before the tag raid.

The end-outcome for the WFE is the same in first scenario, which we all find to be acceptable, and in the second scenario which is what happened now. If that's the case...isn't everyone just being a bit fussy?

*I only speak for myself an outsider hardly involved in R/D bah bah bah. The Christmas break is giving me to too much me time if I'm stepping into such dangerous conversations.

[Vladisvok Destino]

Well at least we always know there's one person we can go to for an honest answer on why UDL raids.

*yawns*

Raid? Hardly. Hostile detag? Possibly.

Removing an active native delegate from power in order to change the WFE/flag/embassies to what you think they should be. I'll remember in future that TBR aren't raiders but hostile detaggers

The end-outcome for the WFE is the same in first scenario, which we all find to be acceptable, and in the second scenario which is what happened now. If that's the case...isn't everyone just being a bit fussy?

Not really being fussy, just pointing out that it's quite nice to see UDL show that for all their talk about native rights they're more interested in the score card with TBR.

[Cromarty]

*yawns*

Raid? Hardly. Hostile detag? Possibly.

Removing an active native delegate from power in order to change the WFE/flag/embassies to what you think they should be. I'll remember in future that TBR aren't raiders but hostile detaggers

To what they were before they were tagged.

That's the entire fucking definition of detag.

But seriously, don't you have anything better to do then bitch and whine at the UDL? It's a little pathetic.

[Andacantra]

I'm sorry if sticking up for what we think is right is pathetic, I'll bear that in mind the next time UDL shoves their propaganda down my throat.

We don't think that it's right that the UDL displaced an active delegate who had already taken action against the tag. Is it really so difficult to see why we think that perhaps speaking to that delegate would have been a more appropriate first step?

[Cromarty]

I'm sorry if sticking up for what we think is right is pathetic, I'll bear that in mind the next time UDL shoves their propaganda down my throat.

We don't think that it's right that the UDL displaced an active delegate who had already taken action against the tag. Is it really so difficult to see why we think that perhaps speaking to that delegate would have been a more appropriate first step?

Tell ya what, next time you're detagging, you can do it your way, and we'll continue doing it our way.

And I'll continue to dismiss the 'concerns' of raiders and TITO as bitching that deserves as much as my time as any of the Kardashians.

[Lyanna Stark]

So, Secularia had an embassy with The Black Riders before the raid? The history suggests otherwise. Also, a free tip because I know you have trouble telling the difference -- the nations Endermaan and Matterrun were both responsible for the raid that you were "protecting" against. (You even banned the former from another region recently!). Anyway, I won't look any further as I'm sure this is enough embarrassment for you in one night. You should look yourself!

My apologies for my overlook there, actually. Was just skimming over the obvious stuff quickly considering the fact that I had faith in our point to do his job (which he's now down) before update and have been rushing about because of exciting RL things. ^^ Again, that's been remedied.

We do have twelve hours to do so, you know. Some detaggers take more time with it than others--I've taken delegacies for detags before and not finished detagging it until closer to nextu pdate because I don't have to or have other stuff to do. It's been done, besides for one of the raiders where it looks like our lead didn't have enough influence.

This is, to me, the exact definition of a raid, and I await your definition with anticipation.

The region was still tagged. See below. I'd concede that the fact that the native was active recently probably was overlooked by those in charge last night as it was still on the detag list, had been on it for quite some time, and again the moral assumption that natives don't want to live in a tagged region. We set the WFE and the region back to the way it had been pre-raid. Sometimes Delegates don't realize the WFE and flag have been changed at all or a new embassy was made. *shrugs* Or don't know how to get their old WFE back, etc.

And again, if you think we're now raiding I'd like to direct you to the attempts on refounds that TITO has done in the past..those were real raids! But if this is now also raiding I'd like to see TITO's plans to stop it? Or is your goal just to wait and come on the forum and whine about UDL here? If you had such a problem with that detag last night you had more than enough time to move in and stop that "raid" now.. Then again raiders the last few nights haven't been doing much, watching us must give ya some glee. A belated merry Christmas to ya anyways.

You know, the response to a genuine criticism isn't to tell those with said concern to chill out and go away. Can the UDL not see why people are just a wee bit pissed off over this? When you're doing something which does inherently violate the sovereignty of that region, you should surely check whether that native was active, and if they were, if they -wanted- their region detagged (and pointing out the things that they may want to change).

Part of helping people is communicating with them, not just running about in your own merry way ignoring the potential wishes of those you're trying to help.

I'm sorry if the UDL doesn't like being kicked from the high horse they're on, but you're a high profile organisation, you should actually deal with criticism and perhaps take it seriously. But then you won't, because of aforementioned high horse.

If you honestly think that any organization that does detags has the time to check and ask the natives before they move in for a detag, you have a complete overestimation in the amount of time that people are willing to give for detagging. Detagging's really a chore most of the time and detagging a region alone takes enough time already--if you'd like to add in time for us to check each individual native in a tagged region and TG them all beforehand and then wait for a response and then somehow arbitrarily decide if they've been inactive enough to deserve to get detagged...the rest of the founderless regions tagged in the last few months would still be tagged.

Does defending inherently violate the sovereignty of a region under your definition? Clearly we should wait to see if the natives do want to get raided or spent those few seconds PMing them asking if we are allowed to take their Delegacy to eject hostile raiders to stop them from doing something that we'd have to clean up later.

This goes against some of the assumptions of "moral" defending, I'd assume--natives deserve to live freely from raids and the messes left from raids. I'm not the one to get into that with considering the fact that I'm not a moral defender.

In an ideal world, the natives would be able to handle everything themselves and defend themselves against raids. In that same world you'd be able to get explicit consent for all actions regarding outside forces taking Delegacies in the case of defender involvement. But this isn't an ideal world and sometimes assumptions have to be run off of too. I can show you loads of native thanks for detagging or assisting detags that I've alone gotten, often way after the detag was done or from what would have looked like sleepy natives. Natives aren't always aware of a raid or even know what that is or aware that there are defenders to help. Please see Blaat's idea about auto-TGing natives in founderless regions in technical which could, perhaps, help remedy that.

In an ideal world, defenders would be able to intercept so that the tag-raid won't happen in the first place. (I know game-mechanics make that impossible in reality, but that's another story). I presume that is an acceptable type of defending? If that were to happen, the WFE would of never been changed in the first place.

The difference now is that the tag-raid did happen. So they (tried) to restore the WFE to what it was before the tag raid.

The end-outcome for the WFE is the same in first scenario, which we all find to be acceptable, and in the second scenario which is what happened now. If that's the case...isn't everyone just being a bit fussy?

*I only speak for myself an outsider hardly involved in R/D bah bah bah. The Christmas break is giving me to too much me time if I'm stepping into such dangerous conversations.

Yeah. Run while you can, Codger!

The difference that they're looking at is that the native delegate had been online to ban the raiders, but didn't change the WFE or flag back. Thus, as an outside force took the delegacy and changed the WFE, it's an evil raid and UDL are hypocrites, etc.

By the way if you want something more fun to read you can check out the Christmas UDL update on the last page of this thread. Much more fun there, Codger.

As a note, I'm now poofing off to the land of RL with Unibot. Ta.

I hope all those that dislike UDL detagging step up and do it themselves or try to stop raids so there is no need to detag. It'd be nice to have some nights off of just the FRA and UDL [and occasionally GCRs] doing defending stuff.

[Sichuan Pepper]

Regardless of the need to detag the region, in this case the delegate was active and should have been contacted prior to UDL moving in. It is not your call to make but the delegates.
Defenders need natives to trust them and actions such as your removing an active delegate in order to make changes to the region undermines what we do. I can well understand if it was an accident or oversight but the reaction I am seeing is that you find it an acceptable practice while it is not.