The United Defenders League

[Cromarty]

Regardless of the need to detag the region, in this case the delegate was active and should have been contacted prior to UDL moving in. It is not your call to make but the delegates.
Defenders need natives to trust them and actions such as your removing an active delegate in order to make changes to the region undermines what we do. I can well understand if it was an accident or oversight but the reaction I am seeing is that you find it an acceptable practice while it is not.

TITO don't get to dictate how the UDL work. If you actually took part in detagging then we'd take your opinion for something.

As it is, TITO has made it clear they both won't work with the UDL nor will they engage in the tagging side of R/D. Why then should we take anything you say seriously?

And as for native trust, TITO has done more to lose native trust than any active defender organisation.

[Sichuan Pepper]

TITO has done more to lose native trust than any active defender organisation.

Go ahead and explain that comment please. How and when?

Also do you find it acceptable to move into a region and remove an active delegate in order to make changes to the region?

[Cromarty]

Also do you find it acceptable to move into a region and remove an active delegate in order to make changes to the region?

TITO obviously does, considering your history.

[Sichuan Pepper]

Once again you fail to back up your accusations. Not the first time I have called you on it and no doubt will not be the last time.
Should I post my question to you in bold in hopes you will be able to answer it?

[Cromarty]

Once again you fail to back up your accusations. Not the first time I have called you on it and no doubt will not be the last time.
Should I post my question to you in bold in hopes you will be able to answer it?

I have neither the time nor the inclination to both list the wrongs of the griefer organisation TITO and threadjack the UDL thread.

You know your crimes, though I doubt you consider what you did wrong.

[Vladisvok Destino]

You know your crimes, though I doubt you consider what you did wrong.

Funnily enough that is exactly the thought I had coming into this topic, although it wasn't TITO that came to mind.

[Cromarty]

You know your crimes, though I doubt you consider what you did wrong.

Funnily enough that is exactly the thought I had coming into this topic, although it wasn't TITO that came to mind.

You have a very odd sense of humour then Vlad.

[Drop Your Pants]

I have neither the time nor the inclination to both list the wrongs of the griefer organisation TITO and threadjack the UDL thread.

To steer us back to UDL then, what natives ok'd you to go to Christmas and "protect" them?

[Cromarty]

I have neither the time nor the inclination to both list the wrongs of the griefer organisation TITO and threadjack the UDL thread.

To steer us back to UDL then, what natives ok'd you to go to Christmas and "protect" them?

You'd have to ask those involved in the operation there.

[Cormac Stark]

Nevermind.

[Eist]

Merry Christmas to you too.

Don’t even talk to me about Christmas.

The difference now is that the tag-raid did happen. So they (tried) to restore the WFE to what it was before the tag raid.

The end-outcome for the WFE is the same in first scenario, which we all find to be acceptable, and in the second scenario which is what happened now. If that's the case...isn't everyone just being a bit fussy?

The point is that Korinekia chose not to change the WFE amongst other things and UDL thought it was their business to do that for him without consultation. Since Korinekia has managed to keep his nation alive for 10 years now and is unlikely to CTE any time soon, a polite telegram asking him to consider changing the WFE and other things seems much more appropriate than UDL raiding the region for their own benefit.

To continue. Thanks to all in UDL that responded for your answers. In summary I have:

1) Yea, we knew exactly what we were doing – it wasn’t a mistake by any means – but we don’t give a shit how native delegates want to operate their region, perpetuating these silly tag-detag piss fights and increasing UDL advertising is more important.

2) Furthermore, we admittedly do a half-assed job when we carry out these raids.

[Solm]

The point is that Korinekia chose not to change the WFE amongst other things and UDL thought it was their business to do that for him without consultation. Since Korinekia has managed to keep his nation alive for 10 years now and is unlikely to CTE any time soon, a polite telegram asking him to consider changing the WFE and other things seems much more appropriate than UDL raiding the region for their own benefit.

To continue. Thanks to all in UDL that responded for your answers. In summary I have:

1) Yea, we knew exactly what we were doing – it wasn’t a mistake by any means – but we don’t give a shit how native delegates want to operate their region, perpetuating these silly tag-detag piss fights and increasing UDL advertising is more important.

2) Furthermore, we admittedly do a half-assed job when we carry out these raids.

If you think it is a raid, go ahead and defend it. Right now, you are doing nothing productive besides trying to insult the UDL in whatever way you can find.

1. Yes, we did know exactly what we are doing, we were detagging a region with a native delegate, something we do on a regular basis to help fight raiders (*cough*whathaveyoudonetoday?*cough*). Our utmost goal is to heed the native's wishes, and to return their region to the state it was before they were interrupted by the raid. In most regions that raiders raid, there are no native delegates to clean it up, so we move in to remove the raider stain and bring it back to how it was before hand (do you want to let the raiders have their tag on every region forever? Is that your goal?). In some regions, however, there are native delegates. In those, we lower their priority to let the native handle it on their own and try to reach out a hand for assistance if they want. In many cases, however, the delegates are very inactive and unable to remove the tag, in these cases it is put on our schedule and we will detag it eventually so they can get back to being normal. It just so happens that there weren't any outstanding other tags to clean and so our detaggers moved to detag that region. If the native delegate does not want it detagged, we will respect their wishes. It is precisely their wishes that we want to uphold. Yet, we are not perfect, and instead of telegramming every single delegate that has been raided, and waiting for a response some 20 days later, we take the initiative and detag it for them, supplying their old WFE (that they might not have access to), their old flag (that they might not have access to), and unsupress their RMB/embassies for them.

2. We try out hardest each detag, no matter how mundane, to return it to the state it was in before it was raided. We make mistakes, we do, it is only natural, and we sometimes forget to do certain detags, but we never purposely half-ass anything, and we always try our hardest. In this case, however, I believe the region was properly detagged eventually, that is all that matters. Sometimes we forget one thing in our 30 detags, and that is understandable, but we always try our best to detag everything completely. But, according to you, we shouldn't be detagging them at all.

[Vladisvok Destino]

If you think it is a raid, go ahead and defend it. Right now, you are doing nothing productive besides trying to insult the UDL in whatever way you can find.

Missing of course the main point here, if TITO did now take action against UDLs invasion of the region then they'd be no better than UDL were in the matter (Korinekia once again being back in the delegates seat as he was prior to your attack.)

1. Yes, we did know exactly what we are doing, we were detagging a region with a native delegate, something we do on a regular basis to help fight raiders

The question then still is why not endorse the native? It was obvious that he was active as he had the chance to eject the raiders before you came crashing in, so why was it necessary for UDL to remove an active delegate from power?

(*cough*whathaveyoudonetoday?*cough*).

Not gone raiding, which seems to me more than UDL can manage (and actually it's interesting to note looking at the delegates nation TITO did seem to move in after the initial raid, so it looks like they're move interested in what the natives want in this case than you are.)

Our utmost goal is to heed the native's wishes, and to return their region to the state it was before they were interrupted by the raid.

You seem to have those two the wrong way round, as has been shown here your 1st priority is the latter half of your sentence.

In many cases, however, the delegates are very inactive and unable to remove the tag, in these cases it is put on our schedule and we will detag it eventually so they can get back to being normal.

Yet, we are not perfect, and instead of telegramming every single delegate that has been raided, and waiting for a response some 20 days later, we take the initiative and detag it for them, supplying their old WFE (that they might not have access to), their old flag (that they might not have access to), and unsupress their RMB/embassies for them.

Again, he kicked the raiders, how much of a clue does UDL need that a delegate is active?

[Ravania Prima]

UDL raiding the region for their own benefit.

Uhum, we never posted anywhere that we detagged Secularia, we don't use UDL-flags, we leave the region after detagging... So if you hadn't posted in this thread about it, nobody would have even talked about it, so where is our benefit???? Or is this just you trying to gain benefit from this by polishing you're 'white knight'-armour?

Secondly I don't think we will change our policy on detagging because others, like you, think it's wrong. After all it's OUR policy.

Thirdly I've detagged a fair number of regions with native delegates and I have never gotten a reaction of the native delegate other than thanks for helping out.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Can I ask why UDL saw fit to raid TBH's puppet dump? I know it's the season and all, but does that not strike you as just a tad hypocritical?

[Solm]

Can I ask why UDL saw fit to raid TBH's puppet dump? I know it's the season and all, but does that not strike you as just a tad hypocritical?

That was a few people wishing them a merry christmas!

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Can I ask why UDL saw fit to raid TBH's puppet dump? I know it's the season and all, but does that not strike you as just a tad hypocritical?

That was a few people wishing them a merry christmas!

You tagged a place.

Tut.
Tut.
Tut.

One of us, one of us, one of us...

[Cromarty]

Merry Christmas to you too.

Don’t even talk to me about Christmas.

Oh wow, Christmas didn't get raided this year. You're welcome TITO, we did your job for you.

Again.

The point is that Korinekia chose not to change the WFE amongst other things and UDL thought it was their business to do that for him without consultation. Since Korinekia has managed to keep his nation alive for 10 years now and is unlikely to CTE any time soon, a polite telegram asking him to consider changing the WFE and other things seems much more appropriate than UDL raiding the region for their own benefit.

When TITO can get off their asses and do the dog work that most other defenders do, then TITO can dictate how and why we detag. Until then, kindly keep all bitching between you and your Grub God.

To continue. Thanks to all in UDL that responded for your answers. In summary I have:

1) Yea, we knew exactly what we were doing – it wasn’t a mistake by any means – but we don’t give a shit how native delegates want to operate their region, perpetuating these silly tag-detag piss fights and increasing UDL advertising is more important.

Actually, what we don't give a shit about is what TITO think of us.

2) Furthermore, we admittedly do a half-assed job when we carry out these raids.

Whereas we'd never know how good TITO are at defending, because they never do any of it.

[Sichuan Pepper]

Goodness you will pop a vein being so angry all the time Cromarty.

If it is UDL policy to unseat active native delegates in order to make changes to their home region it is a large problem. If it were simply an oversight and UDL followed up with the delegate to explain their actions and apologised to them for interfering it is quite another.

TITO is not dictating anything here, we are clarifying your position

(see how I kept it civil and diplomatic?)

[Communist Eraser]

Defending is so complicated...

[Cormac Stark]

*puts Press Secretary hat on to indicate that he is speaking in an official capacity*

Bottom line: Clearly we didn't notice the native Delegate was active. I wasn't actually present for this particular restoration mission but I think it's fairly obvious that's what happened. I'm not sure why anyone isn't just coming out and saying that; mistakes happen and there's no shame in saying "We didn't notice, we're sorry." The idea that there was some nefarious plot to impose UDL's preferred WFE -- which is to say, the original native WFE -- on the region is preposterous. The reality of the matter is that someone thought this was a detag like any other detag and simply didn't notice the native Delegate was active. You will have that when raiders tag raid as many regions as they have lately and when you are the only defender organization that regularly restores tagged regions.

I have in my capacity as Lieutenant and Press Secretary reached out to Delegate Korinekia to apologize if our detagging operation caused him or any of the other natives of Secularia any inconvenience. Indeed, if we caused them any inconvenience we apologize and we will be advising our Merrymen to ensure that native Delegates are inactive before engaging in restoration missions in the future. However, we do not apologize for offending the delicate sensibilities of the 10000 Islands Treaty Organization or representatives of any other organization who have commented in this thread. Whatever others may wish to believe, our intentions toward Secularia were honorable and our responsibility is to the natives of NationStates -- not to other organizations, their preferences, their grudges, their political agendas or what I suspect in this case was an attempt to cure holiday boredom with some sound and fury signifying nothing.

The United Defenders League has no comment whatsoever on our operation in Christmas except to reiterate what our Chief of the Band has already repeatedly said: This operation has been conducted with native permission. No further details will be provided no matter how persistent Drop Your Pants is in demanding them.

The Office of the Press Secretary requests that UDL Merrymen refrain from commenting any further on this tempest in a teapot.

[Cromarty]

(see how I kept it civil and diplomatic?)

See how I have Cormac to keep it civil and diplomatic for me.

Oh, and whilst the idea of my popping a vein is humourous, I'm not angry, not even close.

[Ambroscus Koth]

*rolls eyes*

I hope these sorts of things (pre-defending, raiding regions with active founders) don't become a pattern for the UDL. For your sake.

[Soviet Canuckistan]

Can I ask why UDL saw fit to raid TBH's puppet dump? I know it's the season and all, but does that not strike you as just a tad hypocritical?

It was meant as a joke and some Christmas fun since update was getting quite boring.

[Jakker]

Can I ask why UDL saw fit to raid TBH's puppet dump? I know it's the season and all, but does that not strike you as just a tad hypocritical?

It was meant as a joke and some Christmas fun since update was getting quite boring.

Personally, I enjoyed it. I'm tired of defenders taking themselves too seriously about morality and what not. Plus, now I get to think of neat things to do as payback