The United Defenders League

[Krioval]

So it's fun to grief a region if you don't like the founder? Or there's a couple of natives that you've always had a bit of a disagreement with? Or they support an organisation you're not too keen on? Or they're a Nazi region? Or they're a Juche region? Or they support zoophilia? Or you're just in a bad mood? Or...

Well, not everybody is an ethical absolutist on all issues. I'd be happy to decide when it's acceptable to invade a region or not if I felt such a discussion would be mutually enjoyable or enlightening. Technically speaking, however, Dharma was invaded only after it ceased to have a founder. Otherwise the invasion would have been impossible.

[Gest]

Its sad that you can be made sad about this - its a simple action in a game.

You take it too seriously.

But then, that seems to S.O.P. in the UDL.

Think of it this way, this is a game.. it's a political simulator.

If a region were to invade another region for no point.. there would be a ton of uproar in RL; if this political simulator is to hold any credibility, it should cause an uproar here as well. There will be those who think regions shouldn't be invaded, those who think it is within regions' prerogatives and those who think "because it's legal" it's "a-okay" because "this is a game". The last category of people are the only ones who really aren't meaningfully contributing to the political simulation, in my opinion. If you want to play the game, you must defend your actions within the context of the game, not argue it from outside of the game, otherwise you're not playing the game! Make sense?

We're drug cartels then. We have a deliciously addictive product, raiding itself, which we need to push. It's up to all the other regions to draft their policies and what not.

Nailed the political nexus. If not then all those political textbook I read were full of padding. Seriously, will you self-serious politicos not be happy until every regional act is decided by plebiscite and all regions go to war over taxation of trade routes

[Cerian Quilor]

Raiding is part of the game.

Morality just does not enter into it.

In Real life, power projection and the advancement foreign policy goals through invasion usually leads to death and meaningful destruction of property.

In NationStates, raiding, in all its forms, does no meaningful damage (regardless of what anyone says) in the long run, the natives can always go elsewhere, and if their community is destroyed by just that, then I have to wonder as to the state and quality of the community pre-raid.

So actually, raiding in NS, even in a political simulation sense, cannot be judged in the same way war is, because there are no lives taken. If people didn't actually die in war, I'd be all for more war.

[Sichuan Pepper]

Players have been known to quit playing due to the bullying tactics used by invaders. Regardless of your opinion on it.
Evidence of bullying>
Suppression, rejection and isolation. Anywhere else these things are stopped. Here they call it invading. Trouble is the line gets crossed frequently from supposedly harmless fun into bullying.

[Unibot III]

Raiding is part of the game.

Morality just does not enter into it.

So answer this: You believe a political simulator should not have morality involved in the political simulator? Yes or no?

[Johz]

So it's fun to grief a region if you don't like the founder? Or there's a couple of natives that you've always had a bit of a disagreement with? Or they support an organisation you're not too keen on? Or they're a Nazi region? Or they're a Juche region? Or they support zoophilia? Or you're just in a bad mood? Or...

Can you attempt to see what Riem's getting at here?

Nah man. It's always fun to grief a region.

Having never had the chance to grief a region, I am not qualified to comment. Nonetheless, blind loyalty dictates that I reject your comment in the strongest terms, so if you'll excuse me...

Shut up! That's rubbish! You're wrong, and you know it, and... well... Raiding's stupid. Erm. Yeah! Shut up!

So it's fun to grief a region if you don't like the founder? Or there's a couple of natives that you've always had a bit of a disagreement with? Or they support an organisation you're not too keen on? Or they're a Nazi region? Or they're a Juche region? Or they support zoophilia? Or you're just in a bad mood? Or...

Well, not everybody is an ethical absolutist on all issues. I'd be happy to decide when it's acceptable to invade a region or not if I felt such a discussion would be mutually enjoyable or enlightening. Technically speaking, however, Dharma was invaded only after it ceased to have a founder. Otherwise the invasion would have been impossible.

While I've never really been a fan of raiding for 'moral' reasons, I understand your point completely. Some regions are perhaps 'worse' than others, and it may well be more enjoyable to raid the regions once owned by your enemies. Nonetheless, if one makes statements such as this:

For the record, I've got the same view as Flib, and despite long arguments on IRC about it, no one has convinced me otherwise.

Raiding is griefing, and defending is griefing griefers. It doesn't sound fun, and a fair number of people I've talked to have said outright they either don't enjoy it, or find major aspects of it incredibly boring.

There are certainly those who enjoy it, I'm just saying I still don't understand why.

And then describes as much pleasure from raiding - and indeed griefing - as suggested by the messages that The Dourian Embassy posted on the EID RMB, it becomes slightly harder for people to believe what one is saying much of the time.

And of course founderless regions can still have founders! After all, if you look on the EID region page, you'll see Unibot II is still the founder. It merely happens that he's about as DEAT as a doorknob at the moment. But semantics, eh?

[Cinistra]

Raiding is part of the game.

Morality just does not enter into it.

So answer this: You believe a political simulator should not have morality involved in the political simulator? Yes or no?

Yes, it has already. If you ban a nation (or several), your influence will decrease. Your ability to do more "harm" will thus be hampered. It's kind of an equivalent of RL invasions. A nation can win the military campaign, but lose credibilty among the international community. So, morality is included in the game mechanics, through the loss of influence. What the game game doesn't need is moral puristics assuming moral superiority towards their fellow players. These players are much more a pain in the a** than your neioghbourhood "raider". A "raider" simply utilizes what's in the game: free trade of endorsements, and free passage through regions. "Defenders" are the real bullies here, as they hamper these freedoms, with the only mean they can: imposing bad conscience upon your fellow players. That is: to assume that "raiding" is good, is to commit thought crime. You're searching for totalitarianism in NS? That's easy, take a glance of every post made made by the moral thumping "defender" on these forums, and take a glance at the WFE of 10KI. There you will find the propagators of moral absolutism par excellence.

[Novus Niciae]

Raiding is part of the game.

Morality just does not enter into it.

In Real life, power projection and the advancement foreign policy goals through invasion usually leads to death and meaningful destruction of property.

In NationStates, raiding, in all its forms, does no meaningful damage (regardless of what anyone says) in the long run, the natives can always go elsewhere, and if their community is destroyed by just that, then I have to wonder as to the state and quality of the community pre-raid.

So actually, raiding in NS, even in a political simulation sense, cannot be judged in the same way war is, because there are no lives taken. If people didn't actually die in war, I'd be all for more war.

Emphasis mine.

So breaking apart a community and using their region as a trophy is not damaging a region?

How would you feel about being kicked out of a region you spent years building then see it's WFB entry become a love poem for some ideology you absolutely despise, as a purely hypothetical example a formerly fascist region having a communist flag and a recruiting message for a communist raiding group that proclaims the virtues of Lenin or Marx, or a communist region with the reverse being true. You would think your region had been damaged wouldn't you?

[Ambroscus Koth]

Emphasis mine.

So breaking apart a community and using their region as a trophy is not damaging a region?

How would you feel about being kicked out of a region you spent years building then see it's WFB entry become a love poem for some ideology you absolutely despise, as a purely hypothetical example a formerly fascist region having a communist flag and a recruiting message for a communist raiding group that proclaims the virtues of Lenin or Marx, or a communist region with the reverse being true. You would think your region had been damaged wouldn't you?

Except Cerian wasn't referring to the physical region, he was referring to the community based around it.

[Drop Your Pants]

You defend for fun, because it's a game. Sure you have your moral justifications and all that crap too, but there's no way in hell you'd be Unibot III if you didn't find enjoyment in saving native communities. I don't really care if you want to attach morals onto it too, but you are not Robin Hood. This IS a game, an R/D game, real life has no standing here.

Welcome to my style of thinking

[Cerian Quilor]

Players have been known to quit playing due to the bullying tactics used by invaders. Regardless of your opinion on it.
Evidence of bullying>
Suppression, rejection and isolation. Anywhere else these things are stopped. Here they call it invading. Trouble is the line gets crossed frequently from supposedly harmless fun into bullying.

If anyone leaves this game because of raider 'bullying', then they're remarkably thin skinned and shouldn't be playing this game anyway.

@Unibot: I never said that. What I said is that morality doesn't enter into it in an out of character context, which is how you and your fellow Defender Extremists that think this way treat it. Moreover, because people don't die, and any damage is superficial, any moral condemnation attached to raiding as compared to the moral condemnaton attached to war IRL is much less.

Moreover, there is no 'in character', broadly speaking, in Gameplay, which is really where the problem comes into effect. I actually do wish there was a much clearer IC/OOC divide in Gameplay, but it is unfortunately not that clear, if it exists at all.

Novus Nicae: I'd be annoyed, yes. But would it be a problem worth getting totally worked up about. Because A.) A physical region has about as much signifigance as any given single nation of mine (given that I have about..well...gotta be way over a hundred now, counting all my various military puppets that have CTE'd. I might even be very annoyed, and angry, but the most important thing about a region is the community that is attached, not the region itself. And the community can always regather elsewhere.

[Mahaj]

This IS a game, an R/D game, real life has no standing here.

So then you can't justify things by saying "its just a game", as that would mean there is a presence outside of the game (real life), which as you said has no standing here.

Morality isn't something you have to find just in RL.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Wouldn't this conversation be better suited to a dedicated thread? This is only about the UDL in a very broad way...

[Southern Bellz]

Raiding is kind of a dick thing to do, in the context of the game. It just doesn't matter if you play the bad guy in the game, because its just a game.

[Crazy girl]

Mall is right, back on topic, kids.

[Human Metrinome]

Raiding is kind of a dick thing to do, in the context of the game. It just doesn't matter if you play the bad guy in the game, because its just a game.

I LOLed this because SB is Of Crazed.

[Northern Chittowa]

Raiding is kind of a dick thing to do, in the context of the game. It just doesn't matter if you play the bad guy in the game, because its just a game.

I LOLed this because SB is Of Crazed.

He was, once, a defender back in the day.

[Human Metrinome]

I know NC.

[Unibot III]

A Letter from the Capitalis de Societate of The United Defenders League,

I hope everyone had a Happy Halloween!

A week ago, Earth22 casually stopped by my place to help me carve pumpkins for this great holiday. Earth had a different version of the excursion however. Nonetheless, Earthie and I figured the proper way to celebrate Halloween is with all of you; so we set out to carve a UDL pumpkin and a Unibotian pumpkin – don’t be fooled, the professional looking UDL pumpkin is largely the work of my amazing Aunt.

Incredible, aren’t they? Heh. The United Defenders League was also on the prowl for candy in its celebration of Halloween. We visited twenty regions that had approved us beforehand for a visit; the Greenwood Band happily begged for candy during the event. Highlights included Vlaanderen giving us Flemish Beer, A Mean Old Man dishing out LSD-laced candies in The East Pacific and Astarial dressing as Sheldon the Dinosaur for her *cccccuuuuuttttee* costume. My only lasting regret is we didn’t get to visit The Rejected Realm to ask for more Kandy.

Fine, that was corny. But if you actually do want more Kandy, he’ll be back to NationStates to do a seminar with Naivetry during the 2012 NS World Fair – and so will many other NationStates scholars and celebrities (e.g., Westwind, Todd McCloud, Myself). This is my shameless plug for the event, but The United Defenders League will be attending the Fair and managing an organizational venue. I hope to see you there too.

<Ravania> In 1914, defenders from all over the world came to Flanders and stopped the German tag-raid at Ypres.
<Ravania> It took them 4 years to detag
<Tim> xD
<ABK> lol
<Aliandra> lol
<Zwangzug> lol
<Earth> baha

Holy smoke! Just look at those detags! What an effort by the defenders! – Halcones

Ah yes, detags, the smell of glorious detags is in the air. Don’t you love it, Ravania and Halcones? Hhhm. I think I heard between the UDL and the FRA, we detagged (which means we restored them from raider spam) forty-two regions, yesterday morning alone. Great work guys, at this point I couldn’t hazardous a guess as to how many restoration missions you’ve pulled off as of late. Hhhm, but something is missing from our usual proud collection of successe. Johz? What are we missing!?

<Johz> RIBBONS MATTER!
<Johz> And are the sole reason for my defending.
<Johz> I mean, let's face it, f*** the natives... >.>

Well, that’s a erm…blunt way of putting it, to say the least. I don’t agree with your conclusions or your assumptions, but um… well, I suppose I could mention that The United Defenders League has indeed handed out badges recently for their victories in New Spain and Christmas (badges depicted above), as well as having some strong liberation efforts in Ether and Halo. But I dunno, something still feels missing, perhaps it’s the lack of …

<@Solm> Riemst!
<@Solm> Fix the lag
<+Riemstagrad> o/
* +Riemstagrad fixes the lag

There we go, the lack of Solm and Riemstagrad (who is also celebrating his recent acquisition of “UDL”, the nation). Heh. No, I meant the lack of fighting the lagging server as The United Defenders League defends regions against invasions! We’ve defended a lot of regions in the past two weeks, especially from the Black Riders, such as The NationStates Holocaust Memorial (who invades a Holocaust Memorial!?), Iraq, Gorolandia, The Court of UNAF, Boghanistan, The Fabulous Dominion of the Pegasus, Sumer, The Ottawa Collective, League of Righteousness, Melonesia, GM Motel, United Freelands, Undertow, Comintern, Score Hero, Aaiam, Tequila, Byonds Ragtag Group of Fools, Mount Olympus, Melonesia, Imperial Federation, Tzardom of Kazakhstan, Nukeland, Democratica, League of Righteousness, Phoebe, Beta Quadrant, Jordia, Cackalackey and Tzardom of Kazakhstan among others that I have not logged. Anyways, I think that about covers the brunt of our military victories from the past two weeks, it’s been fairly prolific, maybe even a bit exhausting.

These successes had a lot to do with the work from Earth and Tim-Opolis, who we here at the Greenwood Band have decided to promote to the ranks of Lieutenant because of their excellent service. I wish them well in their endeavors in the League, being a leader in our ranks is by no means a simple task. But I know these two are up to the task. This announcement comes on the coat-tails of Belschaft’s promotion to the rank of “Guardian” with his general semi-retirement from Gameplay; Belschaft has been a great and honorable friend to us all in The United Defenders League and I happily have placed his quiver in our Hall of Honour among the greats who have serviced the good alongside us.

The Monthly Awards also set out to recognize the incredible work of our great defenders. Akimonad scored the Newcomer of the Month award (the first roleplayer to do this), Johz picked up the Detagger Award once again and a surprise recipient of the Chief's Award was chosen, among various other recipients during October's Award Ceremonies.

<Solm> You’re a press secretary, Cormac.
<Solm> We can't let you see the good stuff
<Solm> Because then you would have to lie in your presses

Oh yes, how could I forget! The other recent appointment was Cormac Stark, who has been given the position of Press Secretary. As the head of the Press Secretary Office, Cormac will be helping to carve out The United Defenders League’s general message presented to the press and the public abroad – much like carving a pumpkin, but my Aunt was not available for this job so Cormac will have to suffice (I’m sure he will!). Also, Cormac has just returned from his honeymoon with his new and very happy wife, Aliandra Stark, our Chief of Orientation. It was a great wedding and a lot of fun, I hope those two have a long and uninterrupted marriage (you cannot Cease-To-Exist; I need you both on the battle-field.)

Um, Movie-Night is making a come-back! On Nov. 3rd. 8 PM EST, we will be watching one of the Peter Pan films; we haven’t yet decided which one is the best. Um, but you’re welcome to join us at #udl on Espernet (IRC) when we open our regular military channel up to the public for your viewing pleasures.

Some last notes to wrap things up,

Today in history, nothing significant happened, but tomorrow night is the seventh anniversary of “The Core” ‘s coup of The West Pacific and only four days later, Lazarus was invaded by Evil Wolf, with support from various raider groups included Lone Wolves United and The Black Hawks.

Weird facts that you may not have known, on May 18, 2004, Warzone Sandbox and Warzone Airspace were created –first– out of the Warzones (Sandbox was first). Crazygirl became the delegate of Warzone Sandbox and Ostendt, in Warzone Airspace. The other warzones were added on May 20, 2004. Warzone Australia was first taken by Tresville and the North Pacific Army, Warzone Asia was first taken by Ceaser Caslte (ancient invader group). No idea what happened in Warzone Europe or Africa.

So for the Moments of Zen; I went for a nap one day – the *one* time I go to sleep for once and I woke up after an hour or so with the forum having been changed to announce the new leader of the United Defenders League: Mahaj.

<Mahaj> point is
<Mahaj> It says I'm in charge
<Cormac> A new direction for UDL: "Go liberate Dharma. Night!"
<Solm> Orders, CoB?
<Mahaj> not now
<Unibot> Can I stay on as a Merryman?
<Mahaj> Unibot
<Mahaj> I have a special position for you
<Mahaj> I call it the Chief of Printing

*shudders* Not to be out done,

<Earth> we have a doable liberation at minor
<mid-north> .r doable
<FriarTuck> mid-north: http://www.nationstates.net/region=doable
<Tim> ...
<Tim> mid-north
<Earth> ...
<Tim> ...
<Earth> ARE YOU KIDDING ME

[Cerian Quilor]

Shouldn't your press secretary be someone who isn't trying to Out-Catholic the Pope, as it were, in being as extreme in his rhetoric as you?


Also, while we're on the subject of your extreme rhetoric, during the whole TSP-TNI treaty affair, you repeatedly called TNI "devil-tongued s*** disturbers'

I've always wondered what in the world that was supposed to mean. Care to elaborate?

[Gest]

(Image)

<Ravania> In 1914, defenders from all over the world came to Flanders and stopped the German tag-raid at Ypres.
<Ravania> It took them 4 years to detag
<Tim> xD
<ABK> lol
<Aliandra> lol
<Zwangzug> lol
<Earth> baha

Those glorious German taggers wouldn't have been stopped if only they had kept the right wing strong. Sorry couldn't resist the reference. How often does WW1 come up?

[Unibot III]

How often does WW1 come up?

Defenderdom is full of Dutch people and Canadians whose grandfathers apparently liberated Ravania's home-town! W00t! . Thus: often.

[General Halcones]

Well done Uni, though I doubt it'll last. Would be nice if you could keep it up though, then we'd have some competition

[The Blaatschapen]

How often does WW1 come up?

Defenderdom is full of Dutch people and Canadians whose grandfathers apparently liberated Ravania's home-town! W00t! . Thus: often.

Unfortunately, the Netherlands, where Dutch people tend to live, was 'neutral' during WW I. Ofcourse, Belgium, where dutch-speaking people also tend to live, was a major battleground. This is a reason why the TNI invasion last winter was such a horrible thing to do. The flag flown in Belgium was the Imperial German flag. That was just a tasteless act, similar to putting up a swastika flag in the Holocaust Memorial region (with the side note that the swastika flag is forbidden by the game, while the imperial german flag is not, but for the rest: totally tasteless).

[Cerian Quilor]

Of all things to react over, Blaat.

Really?