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Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:02 pm
by Naivetry
Two updates, friends. And it's over. The delegate held the seat for less than 36 hours and now he has it forever, and one of the oldest communities in NationStates is wiped out.

This is what Influence allows. All of you without Founders, take note.

And the sooner we get changes that allow us to stop this again, the better.

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EDIT: Screenshots re-uploaded for historical record (because imageshack is now defunct).

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:07 pm
by Ballotonia
Well, that's the way the powers that be have decided they want the game to be. Ofcourse, Invaders are still nagging to make matters even easier for themselves.

And they wonder why most defenders have stopped bothering.

Ballotonia

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:44 pm
by Lucretia Borgia
Not that I am a supporter of influence, but how exactly is this the fault of influence? This seems more a flaw in the password protection part of the game. Even without influence they could have invaded and took the delegacy and password protected the region.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:48 pm
by Crazy girl
You really are clueless. To password a region, you need influence. Now, on paper, I'm sure it says somewhere that invaders shouldn't be able to password in their first days or so. Well, guess what, they can. No one knows the password but the invaders, and they can just sit there without anyone having a chance to liberate the region, until they have it completely destroyed. Want to know Belgium's future, look at France. Empty, passworded, and one puppet to keep it from being refounded.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:50 pm
by Lucretia Borgia
Whoa take it easy. No need to flamebait. I was simply asking a question. I don't know how it works really. I'm rarely active in the game. Especially in this sense.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:56 pm
by Crazy girl
You have a wide definition of flamebait, I said you were clueless, and in your last post, you confirm that.

Now back on topic, this is important.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:58 pm
by Lucretia Borgia
Well the game had password protection pre-Influence. Plus as I just checked it takes little to no influence to password protect a region.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:07 pm
by Riemstagrad
passwording takes indeed little to no influence, as long as you show the password to all nations in the region, wich is, in an invasion, as good as not passwording the region. it's setting a secret password that destroys a region. and it requires a lot more influence. but if you can close a region forever in 2 days, that might be a little flaw of the system.


and about our community: indeed, the last months we became a bit active again. very sad, but i'm afraid it's over now.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:07 pm
by Whamabama
They had passwords pre influence. But they would have had to share it with all the natives. They also couldn't eject all the natives out of the region.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:13 pm
by Lucretia Borgia
Whamabama wrote:They had passwords pre influence. But they would have had to share it with all the natives. They also could eject all the natives out of the region.


That's exactly my point.

And I'd like to note that I do not support their actions in any way. It's quite cowardly and gives Raiders a bad name. Just wanted to show that even without influence it could have happened.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:15 pm
by Crazy girl
Wrong.
You see, before influence, invader delegates had to distribute the password to all natives immediatly, according to the rules.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:16 pm
by Riemstagrad
influence or not,

point is that it's way to easy to destroy a 6 year old region.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:20 pm
by Lucretia Borgia
Fine. But still it's not an influence thing. It seems to me atleast that it's a flaw in the password protect ruleset. The rules could have stayed the same that they have to distribute the password to all natives. Why they would change that rule is beyond me.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:21 pm
by Lucretia Borgia
Riemstagrad wrote:influence or not,

point is that it's way to easy to destroy a 6 year old region.


Agreed.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:21 pm
by Naivetry
Lucretia Borgia wrote:
Whamabama wrote:They had passwords pre influence. But they would have had to share it with all the natives. They also could eject all the natives out of the region.


That's exactly my point.

And I'd like to note that I do not support their actions in any way. It's quite cowardly and gives Raiders a bad name. Just wanted to show that even without influence it could have happened.

Wham left out a NOT.

You could NOT eject all the natives out of the region. That's a HUGE difference.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:22 pm
by Crazy girl
The problem was, what exactly is a native was a big grey area and was giving the mods a headache. So they decided to code it in the game, and it failed to protect said natives. This is the whole reason influence was created.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:23 pm
by Whamabama
Lucretia Borgia wrote:
Whamabama wrote:They had passwords pre influence. But they would have had to share it with all the natives. They also could eject all the natives out of the region.


That's exactly my point.

And I'd like to note that I do not support their actions in any way. It's quite cowardly and gives Raiders a bad name. Just wanted to show that even without influence it could have happened.


Actually I missed a very important "not" in my post. They could not have done this pre-influence.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:23 pm
by Lucretia Borgia
Naivetry wrote:
Lucretia Borgia wrote:
Whamabama wrote:They had passwords pre influence. But they would have had to share it with all the natives. They also could eject all the natives out of the region.


That's exactly my point.

And I'd like to note that I do not support their actions in any way. It's quite cowardly and gives Raiders a bad name. Just wanted to show that even without influence it could have happened.

Wham left out a NOT.

You could NOT eject all the natives out of the region. That's a HUGE difference.



Well you COULD; just it violated the rules, but people still DID it.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:24 pm
by Crazy girl
Resulting in a deletion of ALL invaders, plus a reroll of the region pre-invasion.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:48 pm
by John Ashcroft Land
Crazygirl is correct on all counts.

Influence destroys communities.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 5:28 pm
by Romanar
IMHO, the current situation is bad for everyone, including raiders. I enjoyed my brief time as a raider, but griefing raids like what is happening in Belgium is why I never got back into raiding after the group I was with collapsed.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:32 am
by Crazy girl
I hadn't even looked at it that way, Romanar.
I also have no problem with the invaders who invade, change the WFE, maybe hold the region for a few days and taunt defenders, and then leave, the region is still there for the natives to continue and we can go find new battles. Without invaders, defenders wouldn't have their game either.

It's the griefing raiders I have a problem with, and while I guess influence was supposed to handle this....it really isn't IMO. It's made griefing, destroying entire regions, legal.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:04 am
by Ballotonia
Personally, I think there's something seriously wrong with a game if it willfully allows the destruction of longtime player communities in favor of kids whose sole purpose is to enjoy ruining the game for others.

But let's face it. This was pointed out by the defender community before Influence was installed and griefing legalized, after that point, after the defender community collapsed as a consequence, and numerous times since, and this point continues to be ignored to this day. Belgium isn't the first community region to get this treatment, and I doubt it'll be the last.

Ballotonia

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:09 am
by Todd McCloud
And people asked questions to my "Condemn Macedon" C&C.

Where was this thread when they did this to France a few months ago? My reasons for this resentment may be a little different here, but the fact remains, these guys have been doing this *for years* now. All under the blind notion of the dangerous Macedonism. Feel free to wiki that.

OH, and while I'm at it, I believe they are also secretly in Greece (who they nickname Freaks because they literally despise Greeks), endorsing the local delegate.

Re: Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:07 am
by Naivetry
Todd McCloud wrote:Where was this thread when they did this to France a few months ago? My reasons for this resentment may be a little different here, but the fact remains, these guys have been doing this *for years* now. All under the blind notion of the dangerous Macedonism. Feel free to wiki that.

BW brought it up on Jolt, but France was less active in Gameplay; or at least in our corner of it, and we didn't realize the magnitude of what they did there. By the time we looked, it was all over.

We saw Belgium because we still have friends there. 3 of their WAs are either dual citizens or well-known visitors in Equilism.

I was dying to try for a liberation last night, but I rediscovered that I was telling the truth and defending is dead. Tried all yesterday, and I couldn't scrape together more than 6 WAs before update, contacting everyone I knew, whether they had a history of defending or not. We needed 11. For reference, folks... in 2004, Equilism alone could pull 100 UN nations in 24 hours.

I hope the mods are reading the RMB logs.

EDIT: It's 5 am, I called the RMB the WFE...