Belgium

[Valipac]

Kind of disappointing that the moderators are just ignoring this topic altogether but I guess we can't expect anymore

What else can they do? I guess they aren't breaking any rules, like multying, so if they are, under the current rules, they can carry on. It's unfortunate, but the best thing to do is prevent them from striking again.

Such as, keeping an eye on the founderless, delegateless Austria.

They have noticed, they just can't take action. Although they are working with people to try and avoid this happening in the future.

[Goobergunchia]

From Sirocco's blog:

And finally, in closing, the old, old region of Belgium has been invaded and is about to be destroyed by the region of Macedon. This has caused a lot of debate over whether the regional influence system is as effective against griefing as it was supposed to be. I'll write up a post looking at influence and the raider/defender game in more detail at some point in the near future. It may be time for a change.

[Todd McCloud]

Please bear in mind most raiders do not do this, unless the region has faulted them, is their enemy, or has disrespected them in some form or another. TBH recently took a region for flying *their* flag and attempting to taint their image. That, in my opinion, is justifiable. Most raiders will raid, stay there for a bit, then leave. DEN dips their hands in both, but again, they typically don't destroy communities like this.

This is empire building, not necessarily raiding. If anything, the rules should be adjusted to help the raider, in an attempt to jump-start the raider / defender wars.

[Crazy girl]

Real men invade Haven or Gholgoth if they are Modern Tech, or ESUS if they are Future Tech.

PS: And before you ask "but aren't they password-protected?", I obviously wasn't referring to a gameplay-based invasion.

Then maybe GTFO of the gameplay forum and take it to your own roleplay forum.

Then maybe you should consider I was stating an opinion indirectly in favor of the Belgium Region.

Then maybe you should consider that this is the gameplay forum and we don't care about your roleplay.

[Kandarin]

If a region has nothing to do with the raiding/defending game, then raiding them is (or at least should be) griefing. Those regions aren't forcing themselves or their game onto raiders/defenders, so why should it be fine the other way around?

Regardless of their tactics afterwards, raiding regions that have didn't ask to be part of the raiding/defending game is what raiders do. Sure, there are raids on (and defenses of) regions that are enemies/allies within the raiding/defending game, but those relationships arose as a result of raids on regions that aren't raiders or defenders. Internecine warfare between raiders/defenders is a minority of their operations. Such conflicts don't go on without the big questions that make up the core of that part of the game, i.e. "Is raiding right or wrong?" and "If it's right, in the name of what?". Once regions have a stance on those, and a history of raiding or defending unrelated regions, then they develop relations and conflicts with each other. Raiders can't exist without non-raider regions to raid, and defenders can't exist without raiders to oppose. Then there's the much, much larger interregional political framework which, while generally composed of non-raiding regions, still frames its system of relations and policies around the existence of raiders.

"That's fine," you may say, "If raiders can't exist without raiding, then they just shouldn't exist. Eliminating their game is a small price to pay for the benefit of keeping them out of mine!" And you ought to say that if that's what you believe. Indeed, I see that some in this thread already have. Just please don't say "The invasion/defense players should keep to themselves." Significant game features have been added in the past to encourage or mandate invasion/defense players to stick to themselves, and it's never worked. They don't want to keep to themselves, because they can't survive if they keep to themselves. It's just not a valid option. This is something we've all had to learn the hard way. Let's not have to learn it again.

Then maybe you should consider that this is the gameplay forum and we don't care about your roleplay.

More of us care about RP than is readily obvious. If he were to post a rant about how war in II is superior, that'd be out of place, but a little joke isn't such a bad thing.

[Fson]

so wait could somebody explain to me what happened? i left the WA soon after i started NS so i dont know much about WA politics.

[Starblaydia]

so wait could somebody explain to me what happened? i left the WA soon after i started NS so i dont know much about WA politics.

This isn't the World Assembly politics side of things, it's the gameplaying, region invading/crashing/griefing, delegate-taking (winning/stealing) and all that goes with it.

[Numero Capitan]

Please bear in mind most raiders do not do this, unless the region has faulted them, is their enemy, or has disrespected them in some form or another. TBH recently took a region for flying *their* flag and attempting to taint their image. That, in my opinion, is justifiable. Most raiders will raid, stay there for a bit, then leave. DEN dips their hands in both, but again, they typically don't destroy communities like this.

This is empire building, not necessarily raiding. If anything, the rules should be adjusted to help the raider, in an attempt to jump-start the raider / defender wars.

The Black Hawks also tore apart the region of Hethrum and are holding it with a password and one nation. Unknown and The Brotherhood of Blood have taken similar actions in about 30 regions, Marklarg, Rajahland, Sea land, Siberia, Kush, New Japanese Empire and made attempts in Sweden and The Imperial Empire. New Folsom tried to do so in Alleanza. Catlandatopia did so (with your help) to Feudal Japan and others. DEN have done it repeatedly. The New Inquisition have done it to seize colonies in the past.

So I'd say theres not a great difference Todd

[Riemstagrad]

an update from Belgium:

The voting for our future region has ended. the region of "Belgie" has won the vote. (it's the dutch name for Belgium, because all our members are dutch-speaking) All nations banned from Belgium will go to Belgie from now on. and i hope most will do; getting split up will hurt even more then losing our old region.
that region will from now on be an official region of the Belgium-community. because of practical reasons, (Belgium is under siege with a password) België will also welcome ambassadors, travellers and everyone who supports our struggle and in general the struggle against griefers.

I hereby invite everyone who has helped us so far, be it by supportive words or by bringing and keeping the problems that made this happen under the attention of whole Nationstates. so send a puppet to België and have a drink. We secured all our Belgian beers before the Macedonians could find them (maybe that made them so angry?)

so far the news about our new region, it doesn't mean that we will just give up on our old region. in fact, after all this is over, we will continue to fight that kind of gameplay for at least the next 6 years.

about our old region:
We're still sitting there, at least most of us. we're just standing stubborn against the griefers. it takes a while for them to gain enough influence to kick one of the old Belgians. We will continue to oppose the griefer as much as we can. that's at least 15 invaders stuck in our trenches who can't harm anyone else for a while.
15 indeed, one left and another one was punished for multying..

living under siege is something you get used to up to some degree. we know they're there, we know they can't kick us yet, but at the moment it's very disturbing they keep on spamming our Regional message boards.

Belgium thanks everyone who helped us in any way. come have a chat and a drink in our new region belgie.

Riemstagrad

[Serval Cat]

If the Belgium delegate had been cared more about the security of his region and been a bit more vigilant this wouldn't have happened.
The success of the Belgium raid was more a failure of the regions leadership than anything the invaders have done. Natives of Belgium are veterans of they game, they know what can happen when a founderless regions delegate drops his guard. The natives dropped the ball and failed to detect the invasion so don't try to blame us for destroying a community. Obviously the communities leadership wasn't up to the task of protecting the region...
The delegates negligence is not our fault we are just playing the game and abiding by the rules regarding influence/invasions.
And thank the NS Gods for influence cuz if this happened in the past Crazy Girl would have already contrived some kind of rule violation to report and we'd all have been deleted by now. (just kiddin'...sorta )

[Crazy girl]

Heh, what a way to turn the tables around. You grabbed the delegacy through trickery. You abused the system. You are responsible for destroying a year old region.

There are two groups of invaders, the honorable ones, and scum like you.

[Naivetry]

If the Belgium delegate had been cared more about the security of his region and been a bit more vigilant this wouldn't have happened.
The success of the Belgium raid was more a failure of the regions leadership than anything the invaders have done. Natives of Belgium are veterans of they game, they know what can happen when a founderless regions delegate drops his guard. The natives dropped the ball and failed to detect the invasion so don't try to blame us for destroying a community. Obviously the communities leadership wasn't up to the task of protecting the region...
The delegates negligence is not our fault we are just playing the game and abiding by the rules regarding influence/invasions.
And thank the NS Gods for influence cuz if this happened in the past Crazy Girl would have already contrived some kind of rule violation to report and we'd all have been deleted by now. (just kiddin'...sorta )

Quite... which is why we're blaming Influence. You're just the efficient cause, not the primary cause, for the destruction motivating this complaint. In fact, thanks for the dramatic example; I don't think we've been closer to being able to combat region destruction since Influence was instated.

And really, there's no need to contrive rule violations; under the old rules, you'd already have been kicked for griefing - I know that, you know that, let's not pretend this is anything other than what it is.

[Serval Cat]

Heh, what a way to turn the tables around. You grabbed the delegacy through trickery. You abused the system. You are responsible for destroying a year old region.

There are two groups of invaders, the honorable ones, and scum like you.

Oh so now we resort to name calling and personal attack because we are playing a game the way the rules say it can be played? That really shows your class CG, no wonder you never got to be a mod like you used to beg for, they don't call you "Crazy" for nothing eh?

Its simple, if the Belgian delegate was paying more attention to detail and cared more about the security of his region this wouldn't have happened. There is nothing stopping the natives from returning and electing their own delegate again after the refounding is there?
Granted the Macedonians won't allow delegates access to regional control,but with the threat of invasion gone why would he/she need it? Its not like it helped you in the past having access to RC so it would be business as usual for the natives and everyone could be happy,but when we got angry and strident voices agitating the natives and bringing hate on raiders, well I guess we'll have to treat you the same way.

And as far as griefing goes, those rules have been deleted last time I checked,and rightfully so because now we must engage the game a bit more and sink or swim on our own merits ...so coulda ,shoulda ,woulda don't mean a thing. Maybe your delegate should have counted endorsements daily and been awake at update time...you know invest a little bit of his time and energy toward being a successful delegate,and actually pay attention to what is going on in the region.

[Crazy girl]

Cute, seems you know more about me than I do, please, do keep it coming.

But yes, it is nice of you to give us an example of how influence is abused by griefers these days, and hopefully this will be solved soon.

[Ellezelles]

Cerval,

Of course we didn't take the correct precautions, none of us would ever deny that.

But saying that nothing change when we can move back in after the region has been refounded is a bridge too far.

We've always been proud to have been a founderless region, it's a sign of our age for one thing, and it sure is something that we'd like to keep.

As i said on the rmb, our main concert at this moment is the imbalance between griefers/invaders/defenders.

i'll just quote what i said there

There is a big difference between legal and fair, i'm sorry if you can't understand that difference.

It's not because my region is lost, it would've been unfair in any other region.

Invading/Defending has always been a part of this game. But in the old days even the invaders had a sense of chivalry. It was even enforced with rules, so that griefers such as yourself were hold at bay.

Unfortunately rules have changed and a system was put in place that clearly has led to a decrease of gentlemen-invaders, or at least gave a free reign to griefers.

Even if we cannot rescue our own region, we will fight for a better system that will be able to balance this game out. So that other regions will not have to go throught the same perill as ours is going through at the moment.

[Brussels Founder]

Cute, seems you know more about me than I do, please, do keep it coming.

But yes, it is nice of you to give us an example of how influence is abused by griefers these days, and hopefully this will be solved soon.

Look CG, I know you from way back your not fooling me. I gave no examples of "griefers" using influence incorrectly, what I was saying is you and your mod buddies can't screw us anymore when we didn't even violate a rule because of the regional influence rules exist now. No more gray areas , no more mod/player collusion in deets, no more BS. For all the problems influence poses to raiders , the taking out of the potentially flawed, not always fully informed and at times biased mod decision making factor for a real ,hard set rule its worth it.
The Macedonians don't want to destroy the community in Belgium, they just want to control the founder.

Heres an offer I posted on the RMB of Belgium with Serval, take it or leave it ,I offer it to try and make this process less difficult for the natives of Belgium:

"Heck, if the natives here want I'll open up my region Brussels for you to use if you want. I would have no problem at all if the delegate had acess to the regional controls.

I wouldn't even be bothered if the delegate changed the WFE to their liking and took out the "Brussels is a member of DEN Army Federation" part either. I'd really like to get some of my european capitals regions a little more active in the WA and stuff."

[Kandarin]

There is nothing stopping the natives from returning and electing their own delegate again after the refounding, is there? Granted, the Macedonians won't allow delegates access to regional control, but with the threat of invasion gone why would he/she need it? Its not like it helped you in the past having access to RC, so it would be business as usual for the natives and everyone could be happy, but when we got angry and strident voices agitating the natives and bringing hate on raiders, well I guess we'll have to treat you the same way.

This is a rather common train of thought in invader circles and has been for a long time. It's a pity that it doesn't work. In theory, the residents of invaded regions could move back in and continue as they were as a vassal region. In practice, most players consider even the more benign forms of raiding on their regions to be so insulting that they wouldn't even think of cooperating or joining their conquerors. And that's just the more benign forms - with the sort that involve lengthy arguments and mass banning, you can just forget about anyone coming back. Like it or not, Defeat Means Friendship isn't part of the NS mindset, nor is it easy to introduce.

That's not to say that it's impossible. There are conquest-based groups that have managed to persuade regions to join with them and say "empire-building" with a straight face. The old AA, a lot of the feeder campaigns...the Empire in TEP was at least trying to do it, but that failed for other reasons. However, pulling it off requires more diplomacy, concessions and general behind-the-scenes work than conventional raiders are interested in, as well as putting on a less overtly belligerent face. And even then, such groups will still face a minority of players who just want them out and will never join with them. The trick is cultivating those that don't.

[King Alphaks]

Yea your right about raiders not having the time to put into growing the regions we capture Kandarin, its hard enough keeping the raids coming on a regular basis to keep our members involved and entertained.

Its too bad natives typically won't join a region after its been refounded by empire builders. I can't speak for the Macedonian Empire , but I could care less what the natives chose to do or say in the region , I just want the prestige of being the founder of a coveted real world named region.
Real life names are valued because of the possibilities for role playing past or current events that took place in that particular country, like when things are heating up in the middle east they draw all sorts of different people from the NS community commenting on the RMB electing themselves delegate etc. I kinda get a kick out of that stuff lol

But the only regions we've been able to get a good resident population in are the ones without the DEN Army Federation tagline in the WFE. This makes me consider ditching the DEN brand altogether and focusing more on recruiting nations to operate the regions in my empire. There would be raids, but they would be more focused and narrow in scope and wouldn't involve press releases or publicity.
Raiding can be boring at times when the defender groups around today aren't nearly as organized and effective as they were in the past. They aren't even worthy of being considered rivals IMO...

edit: in case there is any confusion Serval Cat,and Brussels Founder are my puppets. I'm not used to being able to post in the forum so easily cuz alot of my nations have been revived and couldn't post in the old forum for some reason. This new forums great!

[Sirocco]

Crazy Girl, calling other users scum is unacceptable. I want this topic to remain civil. If you can feel your temper escaping you wait a few minutes before posting.

[Reploid Productions]

Oh so now we resort to name calling and personal attack because we are playing a game the way the rules say it can be played? That really shows your class CG, no wonder you never got to be a mod like you used to beg for, they don't call you "Crazy" for nothing eh?

Same rules apply, Serval; CG got called on the scum comment, and I'm calling you on this quaint little flamebait.

I'm well aware this is a sensitive subject on both sides of the debate, but let's keep it civil! And that goes for everybody discussing the subject!

[Naivetry]

I must say I respected DEN a lot more before you took up with the Macedonian Empire.

Kandarin's right. It doesn't matter if you wanted to destroy the region or not; that's the result of your actions. I've read the DEN news reports; you have good propagandists and writers, so you could put your energy into winning legitimate support for yourselves with the natives you defeat. From everything I've read, that's outside of the Macedonian Empire's interests and ability; they keep a list of regions locked down with no one in them in the name of a rabid brand of RL nationalism. To expect that they could just waltz in and have the natives consent to live on their whim is insensitivity of the highest order, and makes a mockery out of what it means to be human and to be free.

You can't trample on natives' rights, toy with them, and then expect them to be satisfied with your promise of noninterference. You've already demonstrated that the freedoms they enjoy are not their natural rights, but are privileges granted in exchange for their obeisance and only because you, the conqueror, choose to grant them. Unacceptable. Unacceptable to anyone with an ounce of self-respect or human dignity.

[Kandarin]

Yea your right about raiders not having the time to put into growing the regions we capture Kandarin, its hard enough keeping the raids coming on a regular basis to keep our members involved and entertained.

It's not necessarily so much a matter of time as priorities. I don't know the ins and outs of DEN, but I know enough to say with certainty that could pull it off if you put your mind to it.

Its too bad natives typically won't join a region after its been refounded by empire builders. I can't speak for the Macedonian Empire , but I could care less what the natives chose to do or say in the region , I just want the prestige of being the founder of a coveted real world named region.
Real life names are valued because of the possibilities for role playing past or current events that took place in that particular country, like when things are heating up in the middle east they draw all sorts of different people from the NS community commenting on the RMB electing themselves delegate etc. I kinda get a kick out of that stuff lol

Real-life-name regions certainly do attract a lot of people who want to play that nation's role or represent their home nation and so forth. A strange and opinionated founder is par for the course, but when the region page says right out that it's the property of some in-game organization it tells any would-be immigrants to that region that they're not welcome. And so they stay away, and all you've got is an empty, boring trophy that nobody looks at anymore. Macedon's policy is even more hostile since it's flat-out obvious that it's a competing nationalist organization at work.

But the only regions we've been able to get a good resident population in are the ones without the DEN Army Federation tagline in the WFE. This makes me consider ditching the DEN brand altogether and focusing more on recruiting nations to operate the regions in my empire. There would be raids, but they would be more focused and narrow in scope and wouldn't involve press releases or publicity.

That's more what I'm talking about. Raiding is fun, but you don't win converts with pure raiding. If you want to build an empire, it's a good idea to try out actually building said empire. What you're doing now is really more along the lines of planting a lot of flags in a lot of ruins.

[Dysian]

YO HO HO and a Thanks to Alphaks for pointing out the fun going on here, that I've been missing for the past days.
Before you ask, yes the invader delegate of Belgium (wallonia-flanders) is actually my puppet
(thank you, thank you).

First off, thanks Riemstagrad for pointing out you were defender-related. That gives us an even bigger alibi to occupy Belgium. Even those who claimed raiders shouldn't invade non-defender/raider-axis regions, can't blame us now. Not that I cared about them blaming us.

Second, if Tod McCloud really wants to know, Kiko of Macedon was the one who kept saying that we should invade Belgium for only a couple of days and leave. And I was the one who kept pushing for Belgium's refounding. So don't blame Kiko. Blame me.
I, Dysian from the region of Mencer, was the one who decided about Belgium's faith, months before we actually took the delegate position.

Because that's how I roll. I invade a region, I refound it. I've done it with many small regions, and I don't see why Belgium should be an exception (see, I'm a great proponent of equality).

P.S.: Also enlisted, with the aid and approval of Kiko of Macedon (who says HI to Todd), was the following list:

"Regions of the Empire Builder Todd McCloud

Fox Rite
Czechoslovakia
Darfur
Grenada
Guinea Bissau
Madagascar
Malawi
Rwanda
Senegal
Seychelles
Slovakia
Togo
Zaire
Ukraine
Zambia
Kosovo
Poland"

[Riemstagrad]

ow yes, i've been defender related, and i've always been. imho, that's not really an alibi for griefing our region.

as i said before:
we didn't want a founder back in the time when admins installed founders on request in old regions. We were not afraid of a good fight now and then.
but way more important: we felt a secure backup by the NS-rules where griefing was illegal. a siege is something we can deal with, griefing isn't.

due to our inactivity of the last years, we didn't even notice that the rules against griefing changed. (wich removes your new alibi completely, because we haven't done any defender related action in years.) these new rules would make us consider getting a founder because the safe backup is gone. sadly we realised the change too late.
blaming our delegate for that is a bit low. the last years we were just a community of people chatting on our RMB and sometimes on our offgame forum. we can't expect from our delegate that he gets out of bed or quits his job to be online at the update. people who are just playing the game in a relax way just don't do that.
and THAT, my friend, is the reason this kind of griefing should be banned straight away.
a liberation-resolution could be some sort of a relief, but imho it's the act of griefing itself that kicks all the relax players in the nuts.

it's like playing risk and your opponent just wipes off all you armies in South-america with his arm, saying "earthquake!!"
i'm a peaceful person, so i would probably just quit the game and naver play against that **** again.

it's exactly what you do. this makes playing a game impossible.

[Todd McCloud]

Second, if Tod McCloud really wants to know, Kiko of Macedon was the one who kept saying that we should invade Belgium for only a couple of days and leave. And I was the one who kept pushing for Belgium's refounding. So don't blame Kiko. Blame me.
I, Dysian from the region of Mencer, was the one who decided about Belgium's faith, months before we actually took the delegate position.

Because that's how I roll. I invade a region, I refound it. I've done it with many small regions, and I don't see why Belgium should be an exception (see, I'm a great proponent of equality).

Most raiders will refound small regions, even middle-sized regions. Heck, I refounded the large region of SFBA during my tenure, but it was for more or less personal reasons we, as raiders, were angered at. This is, however, a fine line. As raiders, we are obligated to attack and refound anything we can. Some regions don't do this. Why? A number of reasons: first, it is a drain on troops, and second, most raiders will give back a middle-to-larger sized region after they get tired of it or decide they've done their job. This happened to me way back when I was the delegate of Poland. The Blades of Conquest took it, griefed it, then left. It wasn't a raider group that tried to refound Poland - it was a defender group by the name of Zurich - and I won't soon forget that. Catlandatopia assisted me, a native, to refound Poland. Imagine if all of this didn't happen. Because of their help and efforts, I became a raider.

Now you may say what BoC and CLT did wasn't raider-like, but I beg to differ. Sure, it would've looked good for them to have Poland, but there was a reason why they didn't. I don't really know the reason. Perhaps they say something in me, who at that time was pretty adamant about fighting for Poland. Or maybe they did it because they wanted to have a bit of class, or they decided to show a bit of mercy, or perhaps they realized it would've taken too long to refound. I don't know. All I know is if they did refound Poland, I probably would have left the game. But I didn't. They woke our region up, kept us on our toes, and in the end, helped us.

This isn't to denounce what you've done. The raider heart, dim as it is in me, is proud of your efforts. But everything comes at a cost. I seem to remember countless incidents in Mencer when I helped your crew out, by supplying an extra endorsement, speaking on your region's behalf when Mencer would mess up a plan and thus be subject to ridicule by defenders, by using my morals to not refound your region and instead let it grow. I recall Mencer tried to refound Poland despite it having a founder, so I invaded Mencer and, out of the kindness of my heart, spared the then-unfounded region from a vulpine fate. I could have done that, but I didn't. Maybe that's the difference maker between us. Raiding isn't necessarily measured by success or regions, as there are a number of things that work into that fold, but it's measured by presence. Fox Rite hasn't raided in 1.5 years, same with CLT, but it will never be on the same level as the Macedonian Empire. That sounds weird, but a lot of it comes with presence.

As silly as it seems, my morals is what caused me to retire from raiding. I still openly support raiders, due to Poland and other incidents, but I don't raid anymore. Call it whatever you like, I know people are infinitely opinionated about that. But I ask you, if I took Mencer when it was just him and a few other people (maybe you were there, I don't remember) and refounded it, would you have been allowed to grow into the raider you are now? Raiding requires passion - you and I both know this. Would you be the same raider you are today had it not been for Mencer? I challenge you to meditate on that. Furthermore, raiders are almost required to be merciful at times - Fox Rite, CLT, BoC, TBH, etc have all done that before. I challenge you also to do the same here. As I spared your region, I want you to spare Belgium. No questions asked, nothing along the lines of 'being a coward' or whatever. As I said, as a former raider, I'm proud of your efforts. Now gain my respect.

P.S.: Also enlisted, with the aid and approval of Kiko of Macedon (who says HI to Todd), was the following list:

"Regions of the Empire Builder Todd McCloud

Fox Rite
Czechoslovakia
Darfur
Grenada
Guinea Bissau
Madagascar
Malawi
Rwanda
Senegal
Seychelles
Slovakia
Togo
Zaire
Ukraine
Zambia
Kosovo
Poland"

Awesome! I was waiting for someone to note this (although the list is slightly outdated). Truly, I've been waiting for years for people to take these nation-regions from me. Well, not other empire builders, but people who would be willing to transform said regions into something better. If you'll note, the delegate controls are on in Ukraine and Poland, because those two regions have shown activity, and I felt they needed to represent themselves, so they're pretty much in control there 100% - I'm just there to make certain no one comes around trying to refound them. Furthermore, I don't spray-paint the WFE with orage writing claiming them to be a part of the Macedonian Empire. I don't roll that way myself - instead, I put up region facts, stats, a motto, and some history. All they need is someone willing to take the reigns. I see the exact opposite with ME, which is why I called them out.