Latin motto clinic

[Themiclesia]

scientia vincere tenebras

Couldn't this be alternatively construed as "it is science to conquer shadows"?

Not in the modern sense of "science" as a discipline distinct from the humanities or the arts. Scientia in classical Latin is more like... 'know-how'. Also, despite how often forms of sum are omitted, I think Latin would want an est thrown in there if it were trying to define scientia. Latin doesn't normally use the infinitive to express purpose unless it's imitating Greek, but that might still be cause for some ambiguity without an est.

I was referring to the articular infinitive.

[Naivetry]

I was referring to the articular infinitive.

*nods* That's what I think would require a form of sum for clarity.

[Cora II]

How would go: "If I have to ride alone, then I ride alone"?

[The United Colonies of Earth]

I'm looking for an efficient way to say "From the Stars, Freedom". I chose Ex stēllīs lībertās, and I'm not sure how well this is.

[Astrolinium]

How would go: "If I have to ride alone, then I ride alone"?

Si vehi solus debeo, deinde solus vehar.

I'm looking for an efficient way to say "From the Stars, Freedom". I chose Ex stēllīs lībertās, and I'm not sure how well this is.

I'd do E stellis instead of Ex stellis, but otherwise it looks good.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

How would go: "If I have to ride alone, then I ride alone"?

Si vehi solus debeo, deinde solus vehar.

I'm looking for an efficient way to say "From the Stars, Freedom". I chose Ex stēllīs lībertās, and I'm not sure how well this is.

I'd do E stellis instead of Ex stellis, but otherwise it looks good.

Thanks! I'll edit my motto straightaway.

[Themiclesia]

I was referring to the articular infinitive.

*nods* That's what I think would require a form of sum for clarity.

Well, of course. By the way, does the articular infinitive take a subject accusative in Latin too?

[The Liberated Territories]

I know this is a LATIN motto clinic, but I am wondering if anyone knows any Greek?

[Themiclesia]

I know this is a LATIN motto clinic, but I am wondering if anyone knows any Greek?

Yes.

[Themiclesia]

I know this is a LATIN motto clinic, but I am wondering if anyone knows any Greek?

Yes.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=165215

[Astrolinium]

*nods* That's what I think would require a form of sum for clarity.

Well, of course. By the way, does the articular infinitive take a subject accusative in Latin too?

The articular infinitive isn't really a very "Latin" concept (particularly as Latin has no articles and so the use of such a thing is far more limited than in Ancient Greek) to the point that I would say the overwelming majority of Latin students would only even be aware of such a thing if they have also learned Ancient Greek (with the exception of its nominative usage, in fact, I would go as far as to say that Latin pretty much exclusively uses the gerund for the purposes for which Greek uses the articular infinitive) — though, obviously, I'm no expert —, but the infinitive does take an accusative subject in indirect speech (e.g. "Illum dixi uxorem amare sicut Caesar Romam amat").

[Themiclesia]

Well, of course. By the way, does the articular infinitive take a subject accusative in Latin too?

The articular infinitive isn't really a very "Latin" concept (particularly as Latin has no articles and so the use of such a thing is far more limited than in Ancient Greek) to the point that I would say the overwelming majority of Latin students would only even be aware of such a thing if they have also learned Ancient Greek (with the exception of its nominative usage, in fact, I would go as far as to say that Latin pretty much exclusively uses the gerund for the purposes for which Greek uses the articular infinitive) — though, obviously, I'm no expert —, but the infinitive does take an accusative subject in indirect speech (e.g. "Illum dixi uxorem amare sicut Caesar Romam amat").

Well, while not criticizing or judging languages, how would one supply a subject to a gerund in Latin as a subject accusative in Greek?

[Astrolinium]

The articular infinitive isn't really a very "Latin" concept (particularly as Latin has no articles and so the use of such a thing is far more limited than in Ancient Greek) to the point that I would say the overwelming majority of Latin students would only even be aware of such a thing if they have also learned Ancient Greek (with the exception of its nominative usage, in fact, I would go as far as to say that Latin pretty much exclusively uses the gerund for the purposes for which Greek uses the articular infinitive) — though, obviously, I'm no expert —, but the infinitive does take an accusative subject in indirect speech (e.g. "Illum dixi uxorem amare sicut Caesar Romam amat").

Well, while not criticizing or judging languages, how would one supply a subject to a gerund in Latin as a subject accusative in Greek?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

We're talking about how in Greek you can say, for example, "he persuaded the youth by speaking" using the infinitive of "to speak" and the dative of the article, signifying means, yes? Something like "τὸν νεανίαν ἔπεισε τῷ λέγειν"? In Latin that would be, "iuvenem suasit dicendo", with the gerund of "dicere" in the ablative, signifying means.

[Themiclesia]

Well, while not criticizing or judging languages, how would one supply a subject to a gerund in Latin as a subject accusative in Greek?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

We're talking about how in Greek you can say, for example, "he persuaded the youth by speaking" using the infinitive of "to speak" and the dative of the article, signifying means, yes? Something like "τὸν νεανίαν ἔπεισε τῷ λέγειν"? In Latin that would be, "iuvenem suasit dicendo", with the gerund of "dicere" in the ablative, signifying means.

No that's not quite what I mean. In Greek, it is possible to specify an accusative subject even if is articular, cf. τῷ πολεμίους εἰς τὴν πόλιν ἰέναι Σωκράτης φεύγει. "Because of the enemies' entering into the city, Socrates escapes."

[Astrolinium]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

We're talking about how in Greek you can say, for example, "he persuaded the youth by speaking" using the infinitive of "to speak" and the dative of the article, signifying means, yes? Something like "τὸν νεανίαν ἔπεισε τῷ λέγειν"? In Latin that would be, "iuvenem suasit dicendo", with the gerund of "dicere" in the ablative, signifying means.

No that's not quite what I mean. In Greek, it is possible to specify an accusative subject even if is articular, cf. τῷ πολεμίους εἰς τὴν πόλιν ἰέναι Σωκράτης φεύγει. "Because of the enemies' entering into the city, Socrates escapes."

I'm not aware of Latin having any sort of parallel construction to that. Latin would just say something like propter hostes in urbem intrantes, Socrates fugit (because of the enemies entering into the city, Socrates flees) or hostibus in urbem ingressis, Socrates fugit (with the enemies having entered into the city, Socrates flees).

[Themiclesia]

No that's not quite what I mean. In Greek, it is possible to specify an accusative subject even if is articular, cf. τῷ πολεμίους εἰς τὴν πόλιν ἰέναι Σωκράτης φεύγει. "Because of the enemies' entering into the city, Socrates escapes."

I'm not aware of Latin having any sort of parallel construction to that. Latin would just say something like propter hostes in urbem intrantes, Socrates fugit (because of the enemies entering into the city, Socrates flees) or hostibus in urbem ingressis, Socrates fugit (with the enemies having entered into the city, Socrates flees).

hm. Thanks for that; it was very informative.

[Naivetry]

I'm not aware of Latin having any sort of parallel construction to that. Latin would just say something like propter hostes in urbem intrantes, Socrates fugit (because of the enemies entering into the city, Socrates flees) or hostibus in urbem ingressis, Socrates fugit (with the enemies having entered into the city, Socrates flees).

Yep. Or possibly, Cum hostes in urbem intrent... Latin has fewer options for how to express these things than Greek - a fact which annoyed Roman writers to no end.

[Themiclesia]

I'm not aware of Latin having any sort of parallel construction to that. Latin would just say something like propter hostes in urbem intrantes, Socrates fugit (because of the enemies entering into the city, Socrates flees) or hostibus in urbem ingressis, Socrates fugit (with the enemies having entered into the city, Socrates flees).

Yep. Or possibly, Cum hostes in urbem intrent... Latin has fewer options for how to express these things than Greek - a fact which annoyed Roman writers to no end.

So that type of subordinate clause takes Cum + subjunctive, right? Adverbial Cum.

[Astrolinium]

I'm not aware of Latin having any sort of parallel construction to that. Latin would just say something like propter hostes in urbem intrantes, Socrates fugit (because of the enemies entering into the city, Socrates flees) or hostibus in urbem ingressis, Socrates fugit (with the enemies having entered into the city, Socrates flees).

Yep. Or possibly, Cum hostes in urbem intrent... Latin has fewer options for how to express these things than Greek - a fact which annoyed Roman writers to no end.

I know the lack of a perfect active participle in non-deponent verbs really boils my chicken.

[Themiclesia]

Yep. Or possibly, Cum hostes in urbem intrent... Latin has fewer options for how to express these things than Greek - a fact which annoyed Roman writers to no end.

I know the lack of a perfect active participle in non-deponent verbs really boils my chicken.

Is there really just isn't one, or did the authors prefer not to use it? I know that cognates exist in several other IE languages, e.g. Sanskrit, Greek, etc., though the Sanskrit reflexion is supposedly closer to the original, with stem-apophony in -vams, -us, and -vat.

[Astrolinium]

I know the lack of a perfect active participle in non-deponent verbs really boils my chicken.

Is there really just isn't one, or did the authors prefer not to use it? I know that cognates exist in several other IE languages, e.g. Sanskrit, Greek, etc., though the Sanskrit reflexion is supposedly closer to the original, with stem-apophony in -vams, -us, and -van.

There really isn't one. Latin has no forms that make a perfect active participle, and the only places it exists are with deponent verbs, which have active meaning in normally passive forms.

[Themiclesia]

Is there really just isn't one, or did the authors prefer not to use it? I know that cognates exist in several other IE languages, e.g. Sanskrit, Greek, etc., though the Sanskrit reflexion is supposedly closer to the original, with stem-apophony in -vams, -us, and -van.

There really isn't one. Latin has no forms that make a perfect active participle, and the only places it exists are with deponent verbs, which have active meaning in normally passive forms.

Not even in an archaic state of the language?

[Astrolinium]

There really isn't one. Latin has no forms that make a perfect active participle, and the only places it exists are with deponent verbs, which have active meaning in normally passive forms.

Not even in an archaic state of the language?

Not that we know of. It's certainly possible, given how little we have of the truly archaic forms of the language, but it seems unlikely.

[Themiclesia]

Not even in an archaic state of the language?

Not that we know of. It's certainly possible, given how little we have of the truly archaic forms of the language, but it seems unlikely.

Well, the Latin participle system is definitely a far cry from what is postulated to have existed in the past, as I now realized after some preliminary reading. It does not have the middle participles characteristic of IE languages, as Grk. -men- and Sanskr. -mana-, or the perfect active participles reconstructed in -wo- and -us-, but it does have the -t- participle, which originally may have been a verbal adjective... as it is in Greek in -te- + second declension endings.

[Estenia]

The incident?

The great noodle incident of 2767 auc?

Doesn't ring any bells?

Oh, you sweet summer child.

No, I'm kidding, but seriously, I've never even seen a third person imperative in the wild.

You know, because the phrase that Giga wanted translated is from a motto of the Adeptus Astartes from WH40K, and it resembles what I'd call a "general maxim". Besides, the English construction "let X something" translates the Greek third person imperative.

Something like μηδεῖς ζήτω

It's ancient Greek, my canadian friend.