NationStates

I think I can answer at least the why.

*puts down a plate with milk and cookies*

A long time ago, before influence was ever heard of, we had a long list of invasion rules. They were kinda complicated and hard to enforce, and often unsuspecting invader delegates (or even native delegates) broke them and got in big trouble over it.
Of course, there were also defenders who broke them, thinking those rules only applied to invaders, and didn't realise that basically, for those rules, they were also considered invaders
And then there was a group who on purpose went and broke those rules because well...there will always be idiots

The purpose of those rules was to protect the natives against the invaders, without actually outlawing invading. This made the job very hard for game mods though, since they had to figure out who's what in a situation.

Then it was decided from above that a solution needed to be found. And influence was introduced. This practically meant that as a delegate, you needed influence to be able to perform certain actions in regional control, and these actions would drain your influence. The longer you're in a region, the more influence you get.
Influence then replaced the monster called "the invasion rules". Anything you had the influence for to do in regional control, you can do. Kick someone. Ban someone. Set a password.

The result? Perhaps some newer invaders and defenders would like to chime in as well, but as I see it, the game has become easier in terms that you don't need to worry as much as before that what you are doing is allowed. The job has become somewhat harder for defenders in that they are stuck in a region for longer if they want to kick the invaders and they can't make a native delegate. And those invaders who wish to kick a native from a region or password it will need a lot of patience as well, though that was the intention

Anyone feel like giving a (short) history of the whole Greece thing?

Cromarty wrote:Anyone feel like giving a (short) history of the whole Greece thing?

I can get the story started. On my UN nation, Iasonia, I was delegate of Greece when it first really emerged as an active region; we joined the ADN, fought a few battles, much fun was had. At the time I had a lot of stuff going on in real life and elsewhere in the game so I stepped down and various other Greek natives built on what we'd started back then. Activitiy was up and down, eventually more down like the rest of the game.

At some point, it was decided to refound the region (We'd been without a founder since before I joined and a hotspot for attacks) and the refounding didn't go off properly and through a serious of events the Persian Empire took control of the region. There's some RL/ethnic unpleasantry that lurks below the surface as well (Also with some Macedonian-affiliated nations/regions as well).

*EDIT* Editing in a timeline of sorts, checked some TGs on Iasonia to double check details

- Active natives decide to refound the region
- Refounding occurs but by an unknown nation "Yauna"
- Yauna more or less manages the region fine but keeps going inactive, eventually ceases to exist
- Persians invade, take over the region
- TITO(?) fails in a liberation attempt. Only had a couple lines about it so someone else can feel free to clarify

Argyres wrote:

Cromarty wrote:Anyone feel like giving a (short) history of the whole Greece thing?

I can get the story started. On my UN nation, Iasonia, I was delegate of Greece when it first really emerged as an active region; we joined the ADN, fought a few battles, much fun was had. At the time I had a lot of stuff going on in real life and elsewhere in the game so I stepped down and various other Greek natives built on what we'd started back then. Activitiy was up and down, eventually more down like the rest of the game.

At some point, it was decided to refound the region (We'd been without a founder since before I joined and a hotspot for attacks) and the refounding didn't go off properly and through a serious of events the Persian Empire took control of the region. There's some RL/ethnic unpleasantry that lurks below the surface as well (Also with some Macedonian-affiliated nations/regions as well).

*EDIT* Editing in a timeline of sorts, checked some TGs on Iasonia to double check details

- Active natives decide to refound the region
- Refounding occurs but by an unknown nation "Yauna"
- Yauna more or less manages the region fine but keeps going inactive, eventually ceases to exist
- Persians invade, take over the region
- TITO(?) fails in a liberation attempt. Only had a couple lines about it so someone else can feel free to clarify

There was a liberation attempt at the time of the liberation proposal and I was involved in the one that occured a long time afterwards.

Um, I'll be lazy and copy and paste the orginal "Liberate Greece",

The Security Council,

Recognizing Greece as one of the oldest surviving regional communities in NationStates and that understanding its relatively complicated history is necessary to fully understand the region's current and dire situation,

Understanding that around August 2009, the two remaining natives of Greece (Grandon and Nikolaos The Great) decided to refound their founderless region to ensure the survival of the community,

Concerned by the fact that a relatively unknown nation, Yauna, happened to refound the region before the native, Nikolaos The Great, which intended to become the new founder of Greece, could,

Taking into consideration that, although Yauna performed its duties to the region's security by eventually repelling invasions, it was a notably inactive nation and even called a “joke” of a founder, by one native,

Reviewing some speculation by natives of Greece that Yauna is secretly allied with a foreign force, the Persian Empire, to protect its status as founder from the natives of Greece who were plotting to refound and commit mutiny against Yauna,

Concluding that, although Yauna made some critical and suspicious administrative decisions (such as permitting delegate access to the regional administration) just leading up to the current recent invasion of Greece by the Persian Empire, if Yauna was, in fact, allied with the Persian Empire, Yauna would have been capable of banning and ejecting the natives of Greece without the assistance of the invaders currently holding the region down (and it is therefore unlikely that Yauna is allied with the invaders),

Deeply concerned by the invasion of Greece that was conducted by the Persian Empire on July 30 2010 -- an invasion that used a condemned technique of invading, often referred to as “Password Grabbing,” that was popularized by Macedon and involves an invader delegate imposing a regional password immediately after successfully claiming the position of delegate,

Aware that the founder, Yauna, has not responded to the civil turmoil in Greece because of inactivity, and has since ceased to exist,

Affirming that a counterattack is impossible to conduct in Greece without the removal of the Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry,

Expecting that, without action by the World Assembly, Greece will become another prized possession of the Persian Empire, much like Ctesiphon, Greek Empire, Parthia, Hayk, Aria and Media -- all of which lack the desirable qualities of a region: activity, access and amenities,

Hereby Authorizes a removal of Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry into Greece to aid in the eternal conflict against those who threaten interregional harmony and goodwill.

Sponsored by the natives of Greece, including but not limited to Grandon and Nikolaos The Great.

The liberation passed and the FRA and Dharma ran a liberation to move in and endorse Grandon (Bunnicula/Hornopolis, a total defender newbie was made lead at the last minute because I had to do something in RL. He did fine!). Yauna came back alive.... and banejected us. I talked with Yauna that night and settled a sort of peace agreement, Yauna agreed to not ban Grandon or other Greek natives and fly the Greek flag and use a Greek WFE, so long as the liberation attempts stopped. This peace agreement didn't last, Grandon got into a fiery debate with the Persians and I think there were a couple of liberations attempted before Grandon and a few Greeks were removed from the region. With Grandon gone.. it kind of looked like that was the end.

Unibot II wrote:If you had a chance to choose a "dream" team of three defenders and a "nightmare" team of three opponents who'd give them the biggest competition (raider, tyrant, whatever), who would they be? What armies would they command? What would be the most "epic" target?

Feel free to use as much history as you'd like to answer the question.

I was wondering about this too.

Frattastan wrote:

Demphor wrote:What was the silliest UN resolution that ever got passed?

IMO, either Protection of Dolphins Act or Max Barry Day.
You can judge for yourself.

I would say Max Barry Day, just for the shitstorm of outrage it generated when it hit the floor. The mods were taking so much flak for "allowing" the resolution to go to vote, it eventually had one of them (Hack or Fris, can't remember) channeling Jack Nicholson in response to one unhappy customer demanding "answers": "You want answers? You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" Then of course, the crazies switched sides when the repeal came to vote a couple rounds later, and suddenly the mods were taking on even more crap for daring to enforce the rules they'd been pilloried for not enforcing the week before.

Promotion of Solar Panels engendered its own share of outrage, resignations and defiance, but I'd say there is a distinctly fine line between harmless "silliness" and willful and destructive stupidity, and that one crossed it. Both PoSP and Protection of Dolphins Act pretty much cemented the UN's reputation as criminally irresponsible fluffies who would gladly trample member economies underfoot for the sake of saving a few trees. Couldn't really tell you why the UN was so terrible and the WA has been so...not terrible. Maybe the cease and desist order also frightened authors from trying to emulate the real thing?

On the "people" tab, what does "lost in th wilderness" mean?

Just asking out of sheer courisosity.

Oh and how do my people get "lost in the wilderness"?

Unibot II wrote:If you had a chance to choose a "dream" team of three defenders and a "nightmare" team of three opponents who'd give them the biggest competition (raider, tyrant, whatever), who would they be? What armies would they command? What would be the most "epic" target?

Feel free to use as much history as you'd like to answer the question.

Ok, I'll bite.

Defenders: Unistrut, Pope Hope and Free4All. That gives you a nice combination of intel, diplomacy and leadership skills + they're good at sussing out game mechanics and invasion spotting as well. However I've know a lot of really good defenders during my time in Nationstates, so there's a lot of people I'd put on a "dream" team; Siggi, Blackbird, Joop, Crazygirl, EuroSoviets, Anime Daisuki just to mention a few.

Opponents: Most combinations of the old NPO senate. People like Unlimited, Blackadder, New People and Moldavi. Very skilled players, who kept us on our toes for years. We spent a lot of time worrying over NPO spies.

Interesting choices, from what I knew about them I had Pope Hope and Free4all on the one team. I also had EW down on my list of baddies.

The Egalitarian State wrote:On the "people" tab, what does "lost in th wilderness" mean?

Just asking out of sheer courisosity.

Oh and how do my people get "lost in the wilderness"?

Good rating for the quality of your environment, I think.

What happened to Sirocco? Did he just retire or was it something more?

As far as I know, RL caught up with Sirocco. He got married and stuff like that.

Sanctaria wrote:As far as I know, RL caught up with Sirocco. He got married and stuff like that.

Mostly true. Don't expect to see a lot of activity from Rocco, but don't be surprised if he shows up in a sinker from time to time. Heck, he might even drop the odd issue or two into the mix.

Unibot II wrote:If you had a chance to choose a "dream" team of three defenders and a "nightmare" team of three opponents who'd give them the biggest competition (raider, tyrant, whatever), who would they be? What armies would they command? What would be the most "epic" target?

Feel free to use as much history as you'd like to answer the question.

Can I change the question? I ask for two reasons: first, because I feel very much like an in-betweener these days - not old enough to know most of the NS legends by more than reputation, and not active enough now to know what newer players are really capable of - so my dream team would be biased to members of my own generation and those older/younger players I've had a chance to meet. It would say more about me than about them. And second, because I think the defender vs. 'evil' thing is far too simplistic for the best sort of drama. Moral certitude is responsible for the escalation of conflict, sure, but the best heroes and villains all claim to be right (or claim that the question of right and wrong is simply irrelevant, because power is everything... see Ivan). We can assume a black and white moral checkerboard to start, but you need side-switching and double agents and, above all, good rhetoric and reporting to bring out the ambiguities of each side's imperfectly realized idealism and make things really interesting. (Compare every 'yet-another-coup-attempt' in TRR to Devonitians/Sedge in TSP.)

So, this is my list of people I've never met (as far as I know...) whom I'd like to see in action, and why:

1) Pope Hope - because she seems to have been what held the ADN together politically, and she pulled it off without most people ever blaming her for all the shady dealings that inevitably involved.

2) Sir Paul - for his news satires, and the sheer audacity of making his secret TNP puppet (UPS Rail) an anagram of his main nation name.

3) Unistrut - because while I've never heard him listed as a leader in any of the famous operations, he's always mentioned in the same breath as the rest of the upper ADN leadership, which means either he was fantastic at all the mundane defender stuff that doesn't make for good stories, or he was really good at the intel game. I suspect a bit of both, but leaning towards the latter.

4) Black Adder and/or Unlimited - because I know both of them as Pacific luminaries, but I don't know enough about either to tell you which one I'd prefer. (New People/Mammothistan/Great Bight, Ivan, and Chosen Men I've met, or they'd be on the 'random Pacificans' list, too.)

5) Argyres and/or Blackbird - I see you two in this thread, but I haven't seen you play... just heard your names mentioned reverentially in various contexts. (Until a few years ago, I would have said the same about Goober, CG, Ananke, and Free4All.)

6) Halmont and/or MrNonchalant, just to throw in some old Atlantic Alliance names and move the list of potential enemies out of The Pacific, briefly... we can't let TP have a monopoly on villainy.

What I'm curious about when it comes to this sort of historical list-making is who doesn't quite make the cut. I've heard the same two dozen names over and over, but I know that's just the upper echelon -the ones who spent the most time interacting with other regions, so their names got out there. Who were the people who quietly kept things running in the mean time - the ones who worked and led without as much recognition? Not mentioning them is like picking a top scoring basketball player for your team without acknowledging the guy who kept feeding him assists.

My question: who were the three most essential people in your region/organization who aren't often included in our histories?

Naivetry wrote:My question: who were the three most essential people in your region/organization who aren't often included in our histories?

Let's be honest here: the raiders.

Naivetry wrote:1) Pope Hope - because she seems to have been what held the ADN together politically, and she pulled it off without most people ever blaming her for all the shady dealings that inevitably involved.

Pope Hope was our bedrock, yeah. There's no way ADN would've grown so large and influential without her. I don't agree with the no blaming part though. She took a lot of crap for being leader of ADN and sticking by her people. However she had a knack for recruiting people/regions, making friends and spotting/promoting talent.

Naivetry wrote:3) Unistrut - because while I've never heard him listed as a leader in any of the famous operations, he's always mentioned in the same breath as the rest of the upper ADN leadership, which means either he was fantastic at all the mundane defender stuff that doesn't make for good stories, or he was really good at the intel game. I suspect a bit of both, but leaning towards the latter.

He was really good at the intel game. There's a reason he quickly rose from Merit ally/intel team member to "co-director"/admin when Pope Hope declared Martial Law and moved ADN to a new forum. I expect the only reason he hadn't been promoted before then was his involvement in several consecutive Merit administrations. However he was really good at the mundane defender stuff as well and he had a no-nonsense approach to defending, which kept him from pussyfooting around stuff (the rest of us tended to get a bit too caught up in PR concerns sometimes). And believe me, he had a hand in a lot of different operations.

Naivetry wrote:My question: who were the three most essential people in your region/organization who aren't often included in our histories?

I'm not sure who you count as the upper ADN, but in regards to the org back in 2004-2005, these are some of people who I thought were amazing players without whom the org would've been a very different place; Sugar Bear, Penngrove, Neboe, Siggi, Biyah, Monte Ozarka, Dilber, Talkos, Peaceful Minds, Unfree People, Gabriels Fountain and Equility. I'm sure I'm forgetting people though.

A screen shot of Early NS shows three regions existed before the game went public.

I think it would be neat to use our collective powers of deduction and investigation to figure out the three regions. I assume one of them was the Pacific?

Did The Rejected Realms exist? Probably not, I don't think regional controls existed at that time.


Hmmmmm... Lazarus? But no nations would be refounded by then so I don't know.


I should stop putting out ideas and shooting them down in the same post.

Unibot II wrote:A screen shot of Early NS shows three regions existed before the game went public.

I think it would be neat to use our collective powers of deduction and investigation to figure out the three regions. I assume one of them was the Pacific?

Do you know about when this screenshot was taken?

October 2002, according to this news post.

Uni was a great, great tactical and strategic mind who mainly got in trouble because at times he couldn't play the diplomat when he needed to (which is, more or less, what brought him down in the Meritocracy). Aside from his defender career he served as my Quaestor (essentially Foreign Minister) when I was in charge of the Meritocracy, served a term as Consul (head) of the Meritocracy and worked closely with me and a few others in developing our intelligence agency and cooperation with other regions/governments. We were heavily involved in stuff even then (i.e. the Great Bight incident).

4) Black Adder and/or Unlimited - because I know both of them as Pacific luminaries, but I don't know enough about either to tell you which one I'd prefer. (New People/Mammothistan/Great Bight, Ivan, and Chosen Men I've met, or they'd be on the 'random Pacificans' list, too.)

Black Adder was, along with NP/Mammothistan/etc., my first real friend in the NPO. Never really knew anything about the RL player behind the nation but he was a fun guy and helped make sure people weren't taking themselves too seriously. Mostly

5) Argyres and/or Blackbird - I see you two in this thread, but I haven't seen you play... just heard your names mentioned reverentially in various contexts. (Until a few years ago, I would have said the same about Goober, CG, Ananke, and Free4All.)

I haven't been active in a long time...since 2006/7 or so I think...so a lot of that is the usual "when my nation was your nation's age, we had to walk barefoot in the snow to vote in the WA, uphill both ways". I was primarily involved in the Meritocracy, where I served as a Senator, Quaestor and then Consul before I grew both bored with the game and worn out from the political infighting in the Senate (imagine a real life government on the internet, throw in law students, egos and a lot of really smart people with differing agendas). I knew the ADN folks well from Merit and my time running Greece on my other nation and was generally well connected as a senator/diplomat and occasionally in under-the-table intelligence or diplomatic talks.

I really haven't done anything in years though, I know Blackbird (I prefer Comrade Chuckles) had a lot more fortitude than I did when it came to playing this game. I knew him as both friend (ally in various contexts, fellow Meritocratic Senator) and foe (communist! ) but he had his hand in a lot of things in those days and beyond.

Interesting to see some of those names, to be honest, I'd assume it'd been too long for some of us.

My question: who were the three most essential people in your region/organization who aren't often included in our histories?

Answering for the Meritocracy here;

Jasque was a great Senator, quite possibly the greatest ever. He also developed a lot of stuff on the statistical end of things - his math/work was behind (read: stolen for use by) many of the first economic calculators used in NS. He was a Consul twice, Quaestor and is generally considered to have presided over the start of the peak of Meritocratic influence abroad (which was generally the period of his 2nd consulship, my consulship and Unistrut's consulship).

Winnipeg was our "big brother" who got a shout out in a news post, made the Meritocracy a gorgeous map, provided the forum/other infrastructure we needed for our government to work and (oh by the way, he says) contributed to the RP that led to the destruction of the Senate based on the Meritocratic Charter, which led to the formation of the Meritocratic Accords Senate (for better or worse, depending on who you ask). http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2003/12/12/index.html news article (Forum defunct, replaced by merit.nosync.org, but I think most of that is hidden in archives.

Two other old names I'd throw out there would be Thomasia (founder, RPer, theorist, imperialist) and Eureka (RPer, lovable ass). We had a lot of prestigious players as members of the Senate but most are at least somewhat known from other regions, I think, while a lot of Merit-first or Merit-only players are probably not as well known.

Anyone got any good info on NS population since 2003?

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:Anyone got any good info on NS population since 2003?

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/history.aspx <- that's probably your best bet. You can get fancy graphs like this, for total regions, nations, WA nations, and the population of each region.

Sedgistan wrote:

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:Anyone got any good info on NS population since 2003?

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/history.aspx <- that's probably your best bet. You can get fancy graphs like this, for total regions, nations, WA nations, and the population of each region.

Sweet.