NS History: You've Got Questions, We've Got Answers!

[Kazakhifistan]

First N-day? When did it start

[Tinhampton]

First N-day? When did it start

April Fools' 2017.

[Pax Nerdvana]

that nation name though

I'm almost tempted to do a mod log search for "penis" now. You think that nation's name was amusingly stupid....

EDIT: Some other gems from the ancient logs:

Sun Apr 27 18:57:31 2003: admin deleted misshaped_penises
Mon Apr 28 04:47:59 2003: admin deleted huge_penises
Mon May 19 01:54:48 2003: admin deleted erectpenis
Tue May 20 11:32:08 2003: reploidproductions deleted the_erect_penis_2
Mon Jun 16 02:55:57 2003: reploidproductions deleted the nation penis_fighting

... And you'd be surprised how little things have changed:

Sat Jan 18 12:34:36 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation new_new_penisland
Sat Jan 18 15:13:22 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis33
Sat Jan 18 21:28:34 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis12e2
Fri Feb 14 19:30:51 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation hey_moderators_suck_my_penis
Tue Mar 3 19:11:11 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_wheat
Tue Apr 21 11:43:24 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_of_big
Wed May 6 12:34:54 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_trade_tf
Sat Jun 6 20:20:34 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation cumpenisland
Wed Aug 5 08:22:02 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penismongers
Sat Sep 12 21:31:44 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_land_of_pen_island

And so on.

I laughed at this way harder then I should have. People never change.

[Lord Dominator]

I'm almost tempted to do a mod log search for "penis" now. You think that nation's name was amusingly stupid....

EDIT: Some other gems from the ancient logs:

Sun Apr 27 18:57:31 2003: admin deleted misshaped_penises
Mon Apr 28 04:47:59 2003: admin deleted huge_penises
Mon May 19 01:54:48 2003: admin deleted erectpenis
Tue May 20 11:32:08 2003: reploidproductions deleted the_erect_penis_2
Mon Jun 16 02:55:57 2003: reploidproductions deleted the nation penis_fighting

... And you'd be surprised how little things have changed:

Sat Jan 18 12:34:36 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation new_new_penisland
Sat Jan 18 15:13:22 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis33
Sat Jan 18 21:28:34 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis12e2
Fri Feb 14 19:30:51 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation hey_moderators_suck_my_penis
Tue Mar 3 19:11:11 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_wheat
Tue Apr 21 11:43:24 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_of_big
Wed May 6 12:34:54 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_trade_tf
Sat Jun 6 20:20:34 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation cumpenisland
Wed Aug 5 08:22:02 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penismongers
Sat Sep 12 21:31:44 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_land_of_pen_island

And so on.

I laughed at this way harder then I should have. People never change.

Well, hopefully they're not the same people this whole time

[Pax Nerdvana]

I laughed at this way harder then I should have. People never change.

Well, hopefully they're not the same people this whole time

Hopefully not.

[The Blaatschapen]

that nation name though

I'm almost tempted to do a mod log search for "penis" now. You think that nation's name was amusingly stupid....

EDIT: Some other gems from the ancient logs:

Sun Apr 27 18:57:31 2003: admin deleted misshaped_penises
Mon Apr 28 04:47:59 2003: admin deleted huge_penises
Mon May 19 01:54:48 2003: admin deleted erectpenis
Tue May 20 11:32:08 2003: reploidproductions deleted the_erect_penis_2
Mon Jun 16 02:55:57 2003: reploidproductions deleted the nation penis_fighting

... And you'd be surprised how little things have changed:

Sat Jan 18 12:34:36 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation new_new_penisland
Sat Jan 18 15:13:22 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis33
Sat Jan 18 21:28:34 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis12e2
Fri Feb 14 19:30:51 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation hey_moderators_suck_my_penis
Tue Mar 3 19:11:11 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_wheat
Tue Apr 21 11:43:24 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_of_big
Wed May 6 12:34:54 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_trade_tf
Sat Jun 6 20:20:34 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation cumpenisland
Wed Aug 5 08:22:02 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penismongers
Sat Sep 12 21:31:44 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_land_of_pen_island

And so on.

17 years of emasculating idiots, how do you feel about it?

[North Cromch]

I'm almost tempted to do a mod log search for "penis" now. You think that nation's name was amusingly stupid....

EDIT: Some other gems from the ancient logs:

Sun Apr 27 18:57:31 2003: admin deleted misshaped_penises
Mon Apr 28 04:47:59 2003: admin deleted huge_penises
Mon May 19 01:54:48 2003: admin deleted erectpenis
Tue May 20 11:32:08 2003: reploidproductions deleted the_erect_penis_2
Mon Jun 16 02:55:57 2003: reploidproductions deleted the nation penis_fighting

... And you'd be surprised how little things have changed:

Sat Jan 18 12:34:36 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation new_new_penisland
Sat Jan 18 15:13:22 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis33
Sat Jan 18 21:28:34 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis12e2
Fri Feb 14 19:30:51 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation hey_moderators_suck_my_penis
Tue Mar 3 19:11:11 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_wheat
Tue Apr 21 11:43:24 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_of_big
Wed May 6 12:34:54 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_trade_tf
Sat Jun 6 20:20:34 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation cumpenisland
Wed Aug 5 08:22:02 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penismongers
Sat Sep 12 21:31:44 2020: reploid_productions deleted the nation penis_land_of_pen_island

And so on.

17 years of emasculating idiots, how do you feel about it?

The fact that people have been putting in the same word all this time is the NS running gag.

[The Blaatschapen]

17 years of emasculating idiots, how do you feel about it?

The fact that people have been putting in the same word all this time is the NS running gag.

Great mind think alike.

Wait...

[Luna Amore]

The fact that people have been putting in the same word all this time is the NS running gag.

Great mind think alike.

Wait...

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.

[Comfed]

When did the NPO-APC war start to wind down?

[Xoriet]

When did the NPO-APC war start to wind down?

The last thing concerning conflict between regions occurred in March-April 2019 where NPO's military battled JTF and LazGuard for a Warzone embassy for about a month. After that things tapered off fairly quickly and the most you'd find were some arguments in NSGP Discord over various issues.

[Comfed]

When did the NPO-APC war start to wind down?

The last thing concerning conflict between regions occurred in March-April 2019 where NPO's military battled JTF and LazGuard for a Warzone embassy for about a month. After that things tapered off fairly quickly and the most you'd find were some arguments in NSGP Discord over various issues.

AA is in the APC? You learn something new every day...

[Xoriet]

The last thing concerning conflict between regions occurred in March-April 2019 where NPO's military battled JTF and LazGuard for a Warzone embassy for about a month. After that things tapered off fairly quickly and the most you'd find were some arguments in NSGP Discord over various issues.

AA is in the APC? You learn something new every day...

The signatories of the APC Treaty last I checked were AA, Lazarus, Osiris, and Hartfelden.

[Catalyse]

When did the NPO-APC war start to wind down?

Clearly it ended after the NPO was defeated following the famous New Year's jump into the Pacific by the APC forces.

[Xoriet]

When did the NPO-APC war start to wind down?

Clearly it ended after the NPO was defeated following the famous New Year's jump into the Pacific by the APC forces.

Still Jumping? Is that you?

[Honeydewistania]

When did the NPO-APC war start to wind down?

The last thing concerning conflict between regions occurred in March-April 2019 where NPO's military battled JTF and LazGuard for a Warzone embassy for about a month. After that things tapered off fairly quickly and the most you'd find were some arguments in NSGP Discord over various issues.

[Minskiev]

Okay, how about this one? What does DEN stand for? All the other ones are easy. TITO: Ten-thousand Islands Treaty Organization. FRA: Founderless Region(al?) Alliance. UIAF: United Imperialist Armed Forces or something. TBH: The Black Hawks. LWU: Lone Wolves United. TNI: The New Inquisition. TBR: The Black Riders. TGW: The Grey Wardens. RRA: Rejected Realms Army. I get all that. But not once have I ever heard whatever DEN means, and if I did, I probably didn’t realize it.

So, what does DEN stand for?

[Daytime to Night]

Okay, how about this one? What does DEN stand for? All the other ones are easy. TITO: Ten-thousand Islands Treaty Organization. FRA: Founderless Region(al?) Alliance. UIAF: United Imperialist Armed Forces or something. TBH: The Black Hawks. LWU: Lone Wolves United. TNI: The New Inquisition. TBR: The Black Riders. TGW: The Grey Wardens. RRA: Rejected Realms Army. I get all that. But not once have I ever heard whatever DEN means, and if I did, I probably didn’t realize it.

So, what does DEN stand for?

viewtopic.php?p=33313826#p33313826

[Minskiev]

Okay, how about this one? What does DEN stand for? All the other ones are easy. TITO: Ten-thousand Islands Treaty Organization. FRA: Founderless Region(al?) Alliance. UIAF: United Imperialist Armed Forces or something. TBH: The Black Hawks. LWU: Lone Wolves United. TNI: The New Inquisition. TBR: The Black Riders. TGW: The Grey Wardens. RRA: Rejected Realms Army. I get all that. But not once have I ever heard whatever DEN means, and if I did, I probably didn’t realize it.

So, what does DEN stand for?

viewtopic.php?p=33313826#p33313826

How disappointing.

[Nepleslia]

What caused the (apparently huge, from the few times I’ve seen it mentioned) debate between the “NatSov” and “IntFed” factions back in the day, what did each faction stand for*, and who “won” in the end?

I know NatSov and IntFed stand for National Sovereignty and International Federation, but how can the former be applicable when the act of joining the WA requires surrendering one’s national sovereignty?

[Imperium Anglorum]

To borrow from reminiscing done by Gruenberg on the WA Discord:

The (simplistic) way I thought about it back then (without having much handle on how things are now) is:

Every nation should ban capital punishment. <- "intfed" position, as used on the forum
Every nation should have capital punishment. <- "intfed" position, as used on the forum
Every nation should decide for themselves whether to have capital punishment. <- "natsov" position, as used on the forum

The latter is obviously easier to coalesce around than the first two, which are mutually incompatible even if they take the same premise about WA action. Which is why there was never any particularly coherent statement of "intfed" ideology.

Historical IntFeds trended policy-wise towards social democracy, which is in line with the political lean of the site as a whole. In opposition to this were NatSovs who generally trended more against the IntFeds than towards any specific policy. (Eg social democrats want a mixed economy with property rights. Far-right people want to take stuff from people they don't like. Far-left people also want to take stuff from people they don't like.) Gruenberg reports also that IntFed initially formed as a policy group and that the group basically immediately disintegrated over disagreements as to what specific policies ought to be enacted, which is no surprise.

Post-2014, both the NatSov "faction" (if it could be called that) and the IntFed "faction" basically did not exist. Speaking as someone who was formerly NatSov-aligned (though I became active as NatSov and IntFed started to die off), a large part of this was the inability of NatSov to advance a coherent conception of what exactly was an international issue. NatSov people overwhelmingly supported Reproductive Freedoms and similar legislation. This was viewed as a matter of fundamental rights. So sure, fundamental rights beat 'not an international issue'. What exactly are these fundamental rights? How does one determine what rights are fundamental? Everyone starts shrugging.

At the same time, IntFeds (not the parody ones who wanted to regulate grades of aluminium sold in aerospace engineering) also admitted they didn't actually really want to regulate everything and that member nations probably were better served with more leeway. Nb different people date the death of this dichotomy to different periods. I would say it definitely ended by 2014. Sanctaria dates it to about 2010.

Argumentation today, even by the people who are not active in the WA except to drive-by post on at-vote threads, is less on the 'not an international issue' and more on the 'this policy is bad'. Eg, if someone proposed an scheme for international transfers to the poor, it is more likely today to be opposed with reasons about how it would reduce incentives for work or duplicate existing domestic benefits than the topic being something inherently outside of WA authority. (Example credits to Sciongrad.)

These questions implicitly accede to the IntFed position that the Assembly has plenary authority. But that questions today are more on 'what ought to be done with that authority' aligns also with NatSov principles to use WA power responsibly. If you view it in the latter terms, I guess I have to ask, 'Will the real International Federalist please stand up?'. In my view, if we stretch NatSov this far it becomes meaningless, which is central to why IntFed–NatSov doesn't matter anymore: whether something is an international issue or not doesn't matter.

Speaking more speculatively, I think there were two major reasons for this change. First was a turnover of who played in the WA generally. The current regulars are much more inclined to look at specific policies and evaluate their impacts than spend time debating a broad philosophical conception of what is a legitimate topic. I don't want to ascribe this as generational, but it certainly does seem to be a cultural shift. Second is the fact that the World Assembly has started to run out of big-ticket items and that today is predicated on looking into more granular topics. Added to this is something akin to Wickard, where regulars today recognise that many topics are international issues indirectly. Recognising those second-order impacts means we are left more with a mixture than two differentiated groups.

[Graintfjall]

What caused the (apparently huge, from the few times I’ve seen it mentioned) debate between the “NatSov” and “IntFed” factions back in the day

The introduction of repeals, and then the innovation of what were at the time called "national rights" resolutions, but have since become known by the somewhat uglier term "blockers". Up until then there was basically no debate as it was all one way traffic.

what did each faction stand for

Neither had a holistic ideology. Someone who used to portray themselves as the biggest national sovereigntist wrote a mandatory abortion legalization resolution. The two terms are pretty meaningless.

and who “won” in the end?

The gameplayers.

[Goobergunchia]

To borrow from reminiscing done by Gruenberg on the WA Discord:

The (simplistic) way I thought about it back then (without having much handle on how things are now) is:

Every nation should ban capital punishment. <- "intfed" position, as used on the forum
Every nation should have capital punishment. <- "intfed" position, as used on the forum
Every nation should decide for themselves whether to have capital punishment. <- "natsov" position, as used on the forum

The latter is obviously easier to coalesce around than the first two, which are mutually incompatible even if they take the same premise about WA action. Which is why there was never any particularly coherent statement of "intfed" ideology.

Historical IntFeds trended policy-wise towards social democracy, which is in line with the political lean of the site as a whole. In opposition to this were NatSovs who generally trended more against the IntFeds than towards any specific policy. (Eg social democrats want a mixed economy with property rights. Far-right people want to take stuff from people they don't like. Far-left people also want to take stuff from people they don't like.) Gruenberg reports also that IntFed initially formed as a policy group and that the group basically immediately disintegrated over disagreements as to what specific policies ought to be enacted, which is no surprise.

As an old-guard IntFed (at least descriptively, although I'd never use the term ICly) it's worth underlining the point that ideological disagreements over policy would generally trump philosophical disagreements over the role of the UN. I'm going to oppose a resolution that reserves an issue for national consideration but I am going to fight way harder against Fantasan requiring my nation to implement the death penalty.

The other divide that helped the NatSovs back in the day is that a lot of the more NatSov-oriented players were just better at understanding the UN as a game construct and writing proposals that, on a technical level, didn't suck. Back in the day the proposal list was usually at least a dozen pages of proposals, most of which were poorly-written garbage that would get, at most, a handful of approvals. Ideologically I might agree with the players that are submitting their idealistic proposals to make all UN nations better places but when you're not even on the forums? I'm probably never going to interact with you.

(I use "UN" advisedly in the above; by the time the WA replaced the UN, there were enough competent players on all sides that this was more nuanced.)

What caused the (apparently huge, from the few times I’ve seen it mentioned) debate between the “NatSov” and “IntFed” factions back in the day

The introduction of repeals, and then the innovation of what were at the time called "national rights" resolutions, but have since become known by the somewhat uglier term "blockers". Up until then there was basically no debate as it was all one way traffic.

A note on the timeline: Repeals were implemented in October 2004, and of course everybody happily got to work repealing all of the worst of the early, no-rules UN resolutions. The first blocker resolution was "National Systems of Tax" in May 2005, which saw a lot of fighting over whether it was even legal, although obviously it wasn't the first call for national sovereignty by any means.

[Graintfjall]

The other divide that helped the NatSovs back in the day is that a lot of the more NatSov-oriented players were just better at understanding the UN as a game construct and writing proposals that, on a technical level, didn't suck. Back in the day the proposal list was usually at least a dozen pages of proposals, most of which were poorly-written garbage that would get, at most, a handful of approvals. Ideologically I might agree with the players that are submitting their idealistic proposals to make all UN nations better places but when you're not even on the forums? I'm probably never going to interact with you.

This is very true. I think some of that came out of the IDU's drafting think tank, which was populated by players like Mikitivity who, while not exactly frothing-at-the-mouth "NatSovs", definitely wanted to treat the UN (as it was then) more like a realistic UN-style IO, not as an all-powerful legislative body. And some of it came of the work of HotRodia from the region of Texas; at one point he even had his argument in favor of national sovereignty pinned as part of the Guide to the Forum topic.

A note on the timeline: Repeals were implemented in October 2004, and of course everybody happily got to work repealing all of the worst of the early, no-rules UN resolutions.

I didn't join the game until 2005 so this is more of memory of reading the threads than participating in them, but I'd quibble slightly there. There was a lot of agitation to repeal "Fight the Axis of Evil" (so much so that about 17 different attempts were submitted, crowding each other out and leading to a slight delay before delegates coalesced around one). After that there wasn't a consensus about repealing older resolutions, at all. The first repeal to pass, not counting Repeal "Fight the Axis of Evil", was in Jan 05, Repeal "Legalizing Prostitution", and that was definitely part of a sea-change that saw people advocating national sovereignty becoming more active. I wouldn't say repealing the worst of the early UN resolutions was becoming generally accepted practice until a bit later.

Since this is the gameplay forum, "national sovereignty" as conceived by gameplayers tended to be a different than as conceived by UN/WA players. The former were much more absolutist and basically uninterested in any policy distinctions; simply existing was enough to vote against a resolution, or for a repeal.

[Goobergunchia]

I didn't join the game until 2005 so this is more of memory of reading the threads than participating in them, but I'd quibble slightly there. There was a lot of agitation to repeal "Fight the Axis of Evil" (so much so that about 17 different attempts were submitted, crowding each other out and leading to a slight delay before delegates coalesced around one). After that there wasn't a consensus about repealing older resolutions, at all. The first repeal to pass, not counting Repeal "Fight the Axis of Evil", was in Jan 05, Repeal "Legalizing Prostitution", and that was definitely part of a sea-change that saw people advocating national sovereignty becoming more active. I wouldn't say repealing the worst of the early UN resolutions was becoming generally accepted practice until a bit later.

Hmm, yes. I think I mentally conflated this with the removal (by either [violet] or the moderators, I don't remember) of a lot of those resolutions.