NS History: You've Got Questions, We've Got Answers!

[Ananke II]

But about the GLA: I always felt that the GLA had a very anti-NPO bent, and that while in the ADN, they kept the ADN really fighting the anti-NPO crusade long after other defender organizations wanted to drop it and focus on defending. The RLA for example reached out to the NPO and stopped the propaganda campaign against them, while the ADN never did.

You're right about GLA being pretty anti-NPO. However I think ADN being anti-NPO had a lot more to do with a big part of our active membership being made up of old Pacific people, regions with ties to old Pacific people (Freedom Fighters, RRA) or people/regions who knew old Pacific people or had been involved in early NPO opposition (Nasicournia, TNP). I basically think that you overstate the influence of GLA when it comes to anti-NPO sentiments in ADN and understate how many of our active members became anti-NPO on their own.

Out of curiosity, was this Crazygirl or the GLA in general being the primary Anti-NPO influence?

Neither. Freedom Fighters was made up of the old Pacific Army and like I said above, a lot of our membership already disliked the NPO. Of course, CrazyGirl's presence in the Cabinet made us less likely to look kindly at the NPO, but then so did my presence in the cabinet. PH, Unistrut and a number of other people weren't interested in making up with the NPO either, so I'd say it was a team effort.

[Frattastan]

Who was Jennivier and why/how did they take TRR over?

[Ananke II]

I remember him trying to gain the delegacy in TNP when I was still pretty new. When that didn't work he quickly left again. I mostly remember seeing him around TRR back in the day though. Here's some links:

http://s2.invisionfree.invalid.com/Rejected_Rea ... owtopic=73
http://z8.invisionfree.invalid.com/Rejected_Rea ... ic=20&st=0
http://networkradio.proboards.com/index ... thread=519
http://networkradio.proboards.com/index ... thread=127

[Letoilenoir]

Not particularly a History question, but does snyone have any links to a NatSov manifesto, or to "essential" threads on this topic?

[Crazy girl]

NatSov seems more of a GA thing than a GP thing, so I think it's better to ask in those circles.

I love how people think they know the GLA, even after all these years, and show they basically know nothing at all.

Ananke

And as Ananke said, the anti-NPO sentiment in the ADN was indeed a team effort. Freedom Fighters joined the ADN, which consisted of many who were thrown out of the Pacific, and others also disagreed with the NPO's tactics and disliked them for it. But it is flattering that you think I was able to keep up the anti-NPO sentiment in the ADN all by myself.

For the record, I retired my NPO hate. Moldavi unbanned me from the Pacific years ago, and Curly is an evil bunny and me wubs him. A little.

[Unibot III]

Once upon a time, the WA wasn't so divided from Gameplay. NatSov/Int-Fed had gameplay implications, with major regions such as Gatesville, Texas and The New Merit, having a voice in the political discussion.

http://z1.invisionfree.invalid.com/Texas/index. ... st=0&#last < this is the major manifesto on NatSov that really "stirred" things up. It was written by HotRodia at the request of NewTexas.

[Cerian Quilor]

From how I understand it, Gatesville used its military to defend NatSovists and Raid regions that voted against the NatSovist agenda

[Unibot III]

Mammothistan said he thought the term, "Defender", emerged during the Summer of 2003. There were several groups starting that summer like the GLA, FA and ADN. Does anyone have any guesses as to where it probably emerged as a term or who coined it?

Likewise, is there anyone credited for promoting the term, "raider", which has somewhat replaced "invader"?

EDIT: I'll note up until August 2004, "invader" seems pretty standard, then in September 2004, I start seeing a few mentions of "raider" usually as a "invader/raider" and by December 2004, "raider" is very common and very accepted. I still see terms such as "invader" and "invader unity" though 2005, even by invaders like the Black Hawks.

General Powell explains the distinction: "Gen Powell (Co-Host): That term is fairly innocuous. I can't really complain about being called an invader. Raiders distinguish between "raiders and invaders" because invaders grief and spam. Raiders do not."

That quotation is from The 2004 Global Summit on Raiderplay and Defensive Operations which was from May 7-16, 2004. I'll note that Mod's rules for Invasions which were pushed out at this time, used "Invader", not "Raider". So whatever wordplay, invaders had been trying to get out of the Conference, they failed to make an effect really at that time.

[Frattastan II]

I don't know for sure, but DEN (and thus Powell) are the people that I'd expect to have introduced the term raider.

Which is used since pretty much the beginning in their WFE (this is from Web Archive, 10 March 2004).
On February 27, 2004, the reformation of the warrior-class of member nations began in NationStates. History will record "The DEN" as the most notorius, well-organized and well-disciplined raider army ever to grace the battlefield. Your field commander is The Armed Republic of Gen. Collin Powell.

[Unibot III]

Maybe we should take a look at Solarius and see if Gen. Powell carried terminology from there, when he was commander of their Army. In the event that it is his term, that would be two very well used terms started by him (e.g., Fenda, Raider).

[The Bruce]

Early invaders tended to refer to themselves by whatever group they were from and generally didn't refer to themselves as invaders.

The label invaders was given to them by others. Was this the same for defenders or did the earliest groups refer to themselves as defenders, as a statement of opposition to invaders?

The raider appellation was later used when invaders were referring to themselves. Whether or not it started with DEN is hard to say, but they were most responsible for popularizing invaders referring to themselves as raiders. Partly responsible for the popularity of the term were several propaganda/hang-out regions (Pubs) that existed for the sole reason of allowing invaders a place to post their accomplishments and opinions on the region board. The lack of any one invader group to dominate gameplay since DEN, the similarity between many invader group names, and the rise of raider unity has entrenched this change.

[Blackbird]

Early invaders tended to refer to themselves by whatever group they were from and generally didn't refer to themselves as invaders.

The label invaders was given to them by others. Was this the same for defenders or did the earliest groups refer to themselves as defenders, as a statement of opposition to invaders?

The raider appellation was later used when invaders were referring to themselves. Whether or not it started with DEN is hard to say, but they were most responsible for popularizing invaders referring to themselves as raiders. Partly responsible for the popularity of the term were several propaganda/hang-out regions (Pubs) that existed for the sole reason of allowing invaders a place to post their accomplishments and opinions on the region board. The lack of any one invader group to dominate gameplay since DEN, the similarity between many invader group names, and the rise of raider unity has entrenched this change.

I don't recall us as defenders labeling ourselves purely as defenders in the early stages. The oldest defender orgs, and here I'm thinking of groups like MASS (became RLA) or the Sardaukar Defense Confederacy Trust, had defense as a primary goal but also had other things they were into. Thus, MASS facilitated cooperation between all sorts of left-wing and socialist regions. Certainly for defense, but also for other reasons.

[Unibot III]

I often see "The Freedom Alliance" mentioned as an opposition organization to the Atlantic Alliance, which identified itself as a defender organization. I have no idea what time-period they were in comparison to other groups. I think their forum was made June 7 2003, but they may have started earlier than that.

[Blackbird]

I often see "The Freedom Alliance" mentioned as an opposition organization to the Atlantic Alliance, which identified itself as a defender organization. I have no idea what time-period they were in comparison to other groups. I think their forum was made June 7 2003, but they may have started earlier than that.

I think that was the organization that Talkos headed up.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

As I recall from my hazy recollections of 2005, most of the people using the term "raider" instead of invader were either part of DEN, or used to be.

[Of crazed]

Here is a blip that General Powell posted himself on the formation of the DEN.

DEN is the brainchild and inevitable development of what began as the Army of Solarius; a democratic region which at one time held an army of more than 200 UN-member soldiers. If it helps you any, both ODDinary and New Dnuoser (current DEN members) were officers in the Army of Solarius, and can confirm much of what I am about to tell you.

Solarius was once among the most powerful regions in NationStates. Through my principal nation of New Florence Marie (which served as Delegate to Solarius for a time,) Solarius grew from dying region of less than 20 nations to a powerhouse of more than 300. These nations were organized in a central region (Solarius Prime) of about 100 nations, and ten Solarian Army Camps containing approximately 25 troops each. Each of these Army Camps were commanded by a Solarian Colonel, and served under the command of a Solarian General and the Solarian Senate. This army was defensive in nature, and helped defend many regions throughout NS from invasions (check with Asgarn regarding Solarius' war with invader region Hades/Diablos.)

After Solarius Prime fell to Diablos, I pushed to have the Army adopt a more offensive role in NS. My nation served to field, recruit and train the Army, and as a Senator I held a central role in discussing the formation of the Army (I planned and organized the Army Camp structure. You may contact the nation of New Hepzibah in the region of Phoenecia for more on this.) I secretly had two of the Army Camps conduct offensive operations in the region of Mount Arden. This action met with rather severe criticism in the Solarian Senate (as I did not receive prior approval for a mission which violated the Solarian Constitution.) After being rebuked by the Senate, I left Solarius and formed raider region DEN. This occurred on February 27, 2004.

To shine some light on some of this. By the time I was heavily involved in DEN, the two most active invader groups, The DEN and Invaders. Invaders was a merge of pretty much every raider group besides DEN and LWU at the time. The term raider was prob to distinguish between a member of Invaders and a invader in general.

By the time TBH started being active, DEN was still kicking while Invaders was slow or shut down.

[Unibot III]

I've read similar history, but how he's explained it is more interesting (I didn't realize he was rebuked out of the Solarius Senate). Particularly, because I see DEN as an important blip on the trajectory of invaders from "social outcasts" to "political insiders". Powell was more articulate than a lot of the invaders of the day and thus had some political capital, especially since he started in the defender world and then was kicked out -- I think he contributed to a large change to NationStates from the outside-inward to the political centre.

[Of crazed]

I wouldn't ever consider DEN as 'political insiders' in the scope of NS. Our foreign policy was 'allied with all raiders' and it was mostly a battlefield only relationship. The closest we ever worked with non-raiders was Taijitu, and that was because they helped us raid a feeder region.

If people have more DEN questions, I would be glad to throw my 2cents in.

[The Blaatschapen]

If people have more DEN questions, I would be glad to throw my 2cents in.

I don't want your blood money.

[Ananke II]

I often see "The Freedom Alliance" mentioned as an opposition organization to the Atlantic Alliance, which identified itself as a defender organization. I have no idea what time-period they were in comparison to other groups. I think their forum was made June 7 2003, but they may have started earlier than that.

I think that was the organization that Talkos headed up.

No, Talkos wasn't involved with the Freedom Alliance (FA). That was Of the people, Musasz (sp?), Gothicville etc. I think they were mostly interested in defending their own regions and the NS sphere made up of the US regions and North Alerica? They did participate in other defenses and I know they opposed the French Pirates/Farkers, so they were probably against the Atlantic Alliance as well, but I remember them getting into trouble with other defender orgs when they started doing 'pre-emptive defenses' (read: shady stuff). I think they shut down/got inactive not long after that. Ballotonia might know more, since I remember him dealing with them when they started going a bit shady to try and get them back on the right course.

[Cormac Stark]

If people have more DEN questions, I would be glad to throw my 2cents in.

What do the initials DEN stand for?

[Ambroscus Koth]

If people have more DEN questions, I would be glad to throw my 2cents in.

What do the initials DEN stand for?

Deny Every Name?

[Blackbird]

I think that was the organization that Talkos headed up.

No, Talkos wasn't involved with the Freedom Alliance (FA). That was Of the people, Musasz (sp?), Gothicville etc. I think they were mostly interested in defending their own regions and the NS sphere made up of the US regions and North Alerica? They did participate in other defenses and I know they opposed the French Pirates/Farkers, so they were probably against the Atlantic Alliance as well, but I remember them getting into trouble with other defender orgs when they started doing 'pre-emptive defenses' (read: shady stuff). I think they shut down/got inactive not long after that. Ballotonia might know more, since I remember him dealing with them when they started going a bit shady to try and get them back on the right course.

Ah, I remember now. I remember Gothicville well. Was Talkos Freedom Forces? What was his group?

[Ananke II]

Yeah, he was Freedom Fighters (the successor group of Pacific Army). Might've been hanging out around Radio Free Pacific back in the day too? I don't know though. I was a newbie back then and the only people I definitely remember around Radio Free Pacific is Freemon, Zhdanov, Unfree People and Fire People.

[Unibot III]

Looks like the main people in The Freedom Alliance were Andistine, Spaceisland, then Potato Pickers. They beat AA using multis. Hah.

But they really weren't "defenders": their most famous mission, the Iraq mission was when they invaded Iraq because it was a dictatorship, then AA invaded and they held their ground using multis and "European allies".

Since my time in nationstates is coming to an end I feel it is my duty to tell the members of the FA the history, some you may or may not know.

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THE BEGINNING AND IRAQ

The FA was formed by myself and Spaceisland and were soon joined by Potato Pickers. In the beginning we both shared common ideals of freedom and liberated several small regions. We took Iraq in the beginning because of their dictatorship ideals, then Atlantic invaded, we defeated them in what was one of the biggest David and Goliath victories to have taken place in the game with the help of European allies, but this is not all- we cheated. I had multis, Spaceisland had multis and Potato Pickers had multis, it was the only way to defend the FA and we did that using any means
possible.

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POST IRAQ AND THE ELECTIONS

After Iraq we began recruiting more and myself and Spaceisland as leaders decided to have elections, but it was not that simple. The statement used by Spaceisland when I proposed elections were "I'm not giving up my power". I told him I would expose him to the FA if he did not comply with the morals the FA was based on. Spaceisland was to prove a hinderance to the FA all the way though, he had no thoughts for the FA at any time only his own progression. Sari-Dinya would prove the winner of the election against Malagana (Spaceislands multi).
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MISSING

Those of you who were around late last year may remember myself and Spaceisland going quiet for a few months, well the reason was that he left to become delegate of Scotland where he ran a tyranny, I oppossed him and was part of the many in that region who would pave the way for his overthrowing. This was one of the few occassions that I put my own grudges before the FA, but I dont let people who cross me get away with it- He lost that war, just as he would lose each time he crossed me.

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COMING BACK

Myself and Spaceisland saw an ailing FA and decided to go back and help the alliance being held together by Trekkers, he was a great servant to our alliance and served many terms with limited resources doing a fabulous job. Then came the disasterous joint presidency where Spaceisland went back to Scotland to become delegate again and leave me to take the flack of the United States crisies, I fucked up, He fucked up, he left like a coward and I stayed. We lost the US because of low numbers and moral while our co-president left for another region to build his own power.
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ORLAND

Orland was an enemy of the FA and we long suspected he was an insider, we had 90% evidence to show who we thought he was but not enough to confront him, I can reveal publicly that the suspect was The Eternal Overmind, however it is still unclear if this is the case.
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SPACEISLAND- THE FAILINGS

When Spaceisland took charge of The FA again in Spring, I thought we had a bright future. I still find it amazing who I myself believed what he said so often. The problem with him was that when his popularity was up he would go a step too far and blow up, showing the FA what he really was. He sacked Gothicville and myself for disagreeing with him, and I again helped to take him down, we then got a real leader in Dragonlands.
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THE ATLANTIC INVASION

I was in favour of invading Atlantic I have never denied that. I believe that if a region invades us we have the right to strike back at the time of our choosing, it might have taken us a year, but we did it, and guess who fucked it up- YEP Spaceisland! The FA nations piled in and overthrew the Atlantic, Spaceisland only had to keep the region safe, but no he got deleted. He fired Gothicville and myself for critcizing him after the bungled invasion, perhaps a show of strength- perhaps not though as he was booted out at the nezt election.
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MY TIME

It has been a great privelage being in the FA and working with you all, but this is the end for me in the FA, I have enjoyed NationStates but I just dont have time for it now. Thank you to those who made the game interesting: Myrth, OTP, Spaceisland, Atlantic, Potato Pickers, Dragonlands, Gothicville and many more.
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