Neutral Ground - an Open Discussion Thread

[Armaros]

Raiding has certainly not come to an end. Defending has. I'm not sure why (defending is a bit harder then raiding, but suddenly most defender orgs went inactive for some reason) but that is not the death of raiding. Far from it.

Lack of interest for the most part. There was a time that the only taggers were Lily, before the current TBH generation became more active. Very hard to entice new people into defending when it's either split second triggers or detag lists.

Ah. I assumed something like it, but I did notice that even on smaller raids when we hold, it takes a while before a lib attempt is organised, and when it is, they usually don't contain large numbers. I'm assuming it's hard to recruit for defender orgs and that the old guard partially retired?

[Drop Your Pants]

Ah. I assumed something like it, but I did notice that even on smaller raids when we hold, it takes a while before a lib attempt is organised, and when it is, they usually don't contain large numbers. I'm assuming it's hard to recruit for defender orgs and that the old guard partially retired?

I've mostly left defending except TRR piles (when Fratt pings me) so I don't know how the recruitment is going. Shocking probably. The majority of the old farts left together leaving a lot of weight on the ones below. Defending needs a new era, away from the old guidelines and players.

[Unibot III]

This isn't a new problem, defending today looks like defending did in 2010. It's a recruitment problem and an organizational and motivational challenge as well as a communication problem. Defenders need renewed, determined leadership that will scale up resources and volunteers, make specific asks to volunteers and reshift them day to day. It's like running a political campaign: field management is first and foremost about getting enough bodies on the ground, using them pragmatically, and retaining their participation. Defending has the lieutenants it needs today, but not the leaders.

Take for instance, the RRA. One of my final policy proposals that I wanted to advance as delegate (alongside a regularly-mandated government update which became the Government Accountability Act), was a renegotiated relationship between the RRA to TRR to ensure long term engagement, accountability, and mutual cooperation. Many readers may not be aware that the RRA is a private institution, constitutionally independent of TRR; TRR borrows the RRA's flag and was leased space on RRA's forum in the past.

The RRA's leadership is isolated from political intervention to such an extent that it feels no particular urgency to build the RRA or continuously improve on its operationality - delegates like myself and Sedgistan who promised a renewed RRA had to co-opt RRA's recruitment, but had no presence in the inner ranks to ensure new recruits were being trained, engaged, and deployed. I think it's important that the RRA remain a defender institution, but the current arrangement is cozy and static - it's the private property of the mandarinate - without any institutional recognition that RRA's success is tied to TRR's success and TRR's success is tied to the RRA's success. In my experience, TRR has a recruitment pool that can support five new recruits a week with diminished returns, and at least two hundred recruits a year - factoring for regular turnover, the RRA could amass a similar base as the UDL.

To do that, RRA will need recruiters, training sessions, and continuous engagement. TRR cannot grow the RRA by managing it as though it were the FRA Rangers.

[Vanquaria]

Reading that makes me understand why GP is so small

[Drop Your Pants]

Reading that makes me understand why GP is so small

Small, annoying and full of ego patting.

[Unibot III]

Reading that makes me understand why GP is so small

Small, annoying and full of ego patting.

You can accuse me of “ego patting,” all you like, but I know what it takes to organize a large defender unit from the ground up.

I didn’t make GP “smaller,” I worked to make it a much larger tent.

[Jar Wattinree]

You can accuse me of “ego patting,” all you like, but I know what it takes to organize a large defender unit from the ground up.

I didn’t make GP “smaller,” I worked to make it a much larger tent.

I think DYP wasn't knocking you in particular about it, just adding onto what the fellow said about what he thought after reading your post. DYP is correct, though. GP is small, and is annoying, and is largely full of ego-patting.

[Vanquaria]

To elaborate on what I said, I was commenting on how the post would only register to those very familiar with GP and may appear intimidating to newbies checking out the GP forum.

Not that I disagree with that particular description of GP in general though.

[Cataluna]

Already brought up in NSGP discord, but NS is down about 4000 WA nations from last year.

[Blight-Bane]

This isn't a new problem, defending today looks like defending did in 2010.

I wasn't even on NS in 2010, but I don't think there was much tag chasing back then.

It's a recruitment problem and an organizational and motivational challenge as well as a communication problem.

I dunno. There are plenty of defenders out there who can be coaxed to lib a big target. Unfortunately, that dreaded toxicity thing can get in the way.

Defending has the lieutenants it needs today, but not the leaders.

Well, too many commanders maybe. The leadership is there.

[RiderSyl]

Already brought up in NSGP discord, but NS is down about 4000 WA nations from last year.

Game is dying.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I dunno. There are plenty of defenders out there who can be coaxed to lib a big target. Unfortunately, that dreaded toxicity thing can get in the way.

Which is, of course, why it never happens.

[Wabbitslayah]

This isn't a new problem, defending today looks like defending did in 2010.

I wasn't even on NS in 2010, but I don't think there was much tag chasing back then.

It's a recruitment problem and an organizational and motivational challenge as well as a communication problem.

I dunno. There are plenty of defenders out there who can be coaxed to lib a big target. Unfortunately, that dreaded toxicity thing can get in the way.

Defending has the lieutenants it needs today, but not the leaders.

Well, too many commanders maybe. The leadership is there.

No. He isn't wrong. The leadership isn't there. Plenty who could lead, but don't. It's more than, "defend this, endo that, jump now". DYP was wrong. There was a new era, sans Tim, with the Grey Wardens. Was considerably different than past defending, but was there, until it sputtered out. Which gows in hand to what Unibot brought up.

Now as a reply to Unibot on the RRA. The NPO easily gets people in the Legio. No one is required to join something when they become citizens, but many still apply. I don't see that happening as much with TRR. I don't think it's an issue of the RRA being independent but the fact it's not promoted enough by TRR leadership or RRA leadership. Nor is there any focus on grooming or looking to promote up RRA members to take on Leadership responsibility, which includes recruitment and retention. (Which the NPO does). The very thing The Grey Wardens lacks now and Defending for years as a whole has lacked.

[Blight-Bane]

No. He isn't wrong. The leadership isn't there. Plenty who could lead, but don't. It's more than, "defend this, endo that, jump now". DYP was wrong. There was a new era, sans Tim, with the Grey Wardens. Was considerably different than past defending, but was there, until it sputtered out. Which gows in hand to what Unibot brought up.

I wasn't saying he was wrong. Just out of the loop maybe. I'm guessing your issue with Tim is personal, as his updating skills speak for themselves.

[Wabbitslayah]

No. He isn't wrong. The leadership isn't there. Plenty who could lead, but don't. It's more than, "defend this, endo that, jump now". DYP was wrong. There was a new era, sans Tim, with the Grey Wardens. Was considerably different than past defending, but was there, until it sputtered out. Which gows in hand to what Unibot brought up.

I wasn't saying he was wrong. Just out of the loop maybe. I'm guessing your issue with Tim is personal, as his updating skills speak for themselves.

I'm implying Tim is old, not fresh new leadership.

[Bears Armed]

Already brought up in NSGP discord, but NS is down about 4000 WA nations from last year.

Game is dying.

*<remembers when NS had fallen to only c. 90'000 nations>*

[Unibot III]

To elaborate on what I said, I was commenting on how the post would only register to those very familiar with GP and may appear intimidating to newbies checking out the GP forum.

Not that I disagree with that particular description of GP in general though.

You can accuse me of “ego patting,” all you like, but I know what it takes to organize a large defender unit from the ground up.

I didn’t make GP “smaller,” I worked to make it a much larger tent.

I think DYP wasn't knocking you in particular about it, just adding onto what the fellow said about what he thought after reading your post. DYP is correct, though. GP is small, and is annoying, and is largely full of ego-patting.

I didn't write that post for a general audience, so that's a fair comment to make.

This isn't a new problem, defending today looks like defending did in 2010.

I wasn't even on NS in 2010, but I don't think there was much tag chasing back then.

It's a recruitment problem and an organizational and motivational challenge as well as a communication problem.

I dunno. There are plenty of defenders out there who can be coaxed to lib a big target. Unfortunately, that dreaded toxicity thing can get in the way.

Defending has the lieutenants it needs today, but not the leaders.

Well, too many commanders maybe. The leadership is there.

It's not so much that there are "too" many higher staff, there's lots of good field managers there - some are people that I served with, who I'd thoroughly trust to run a liberation. What I'm talking about isn't tactical skill, it's communications skills - there has to be a personality in an organization that's ready to hustle for new volunteers, continue to bring them back to the tent, and more or less "spread the good word" as Jehovah Witness canvassers say. When your troops are down, you raise them up. You have to personalize the fight ahead and resonate with people on an emotional level.

I remember tag chasing being one of the few things that invaders did then - so other way around! Comparing operationality between 2010/1 and now is a bit tricky because the question is always whether to include TITO. If you include TITO, 2010/1 would come out on top for troop numbers, if you don't include them, 2019 comes out on top.

If what you're trying to say is that invaders are focusing so much on tag-raiding (and relying on piling more than usual), that it's draining defender forces of morale and increasing their turnover rate: what I said still applies. I've led defender organizations through those droughts, they really kick you in the gut because most soldiers don't like spotting routinely day to day, week to week - you eventually burnout on a psychological level. And it's hard to generate enthusiasm when the only thing to do is stopping tags, detagging, and monitoring pile raids.

This is going to sound rather crass but the prescription when you're facing those droughts is to double down on the importance and the value of the work that your troops are doing, run them till they burnout, and keep recruiting to fill their spots - and communicate and invite recruits back when they recover from their burnout (a liberation is a good opportunity to pull people back in the fray.) I've had to do it for months and it's difficult because you're watching your membership go from 200 to 170 to 150, and you're just recruiting to keep your numbers up to where they where they were in Jan.

Ultimately, it's always the same challenge, communicating your message of hope and purpose, and recruiting new participants.

I do not agree with 10XI's moratorium on defending tag raids. It doesn't stop invaders from tagging regions - and any tag can become a pile raid. You have to drill it into soldiers' heads that the work they're doing is purposeful, that you cannot identify a future occupation from a present tag raid. You're not a fortune teller, you're a defender: it's on you to defend, nobody else will. Every tag raid you stop is a region that cannot be griefed. Every native matters. Every home is a home worth protecting. You can't play 'not to lose', you have to play to win.

No. He isn't wrong. The leadership isn't there. Plenty who could lead, but don't. It's more than, "defend this, endo that, jump now". DYP was wrong. There was a new era, sans Tim, with the Grey Wardens. Was considerably different than past defending, but was there, until it sputtered out. Which gows in hand to what Unibot brought up.

I wasn't saying he was wrong. Just out of the loop maybe. I'm guessing your issue with Tim is personal, as his updating skills speak for themselves.

Once again, I'm not talking about tactical skills and neither is Mek.

Now as a reply to Unibot on the RRA. The NPO easily gets people in the Legio. No one is required to join something when they become citizens, but many still apply. I don't see that happening as much with TRR. I don't think it's an issue of the RRA being independent but the fact it's not promoted enough by TRR leadership or RRA leadership. Nor is there any focus on grooming or looking to promote up RRA members to take on Leadership responsibility, which includes recruitment and retention. (Which the NPO does). The very thing The Grey Wardens lacks now and Defending for years as a whole has lacked.

I agree that the RRA is not promoted enough and there is no real movement internally to groom and promote new leadership - but what I was saying is that the independence of the RRA fundamentally contributes to that situation because even when TRR Delegates want to change the RRA constructively, they cannot enact that reform from the outside.

I only singled out the RRA because I see a clear answer in RRA's case and it's an established brand that could be rehabilitated more easily than starting a new organization from the ground up. In truth, what I'm talking about is a problem that is game-wide and impacts all extant defender organizations and communities.

Already brought up in NSGP discord, but NS is down about 4000 WA nations from last year.

Yeah, that's definitely worrying. I will say though that I've seen that before when I was a much newer player. The game's population was in complete free-fall in 2008/9.

The way we burrowed ourselves out of the Great Decline was creative decisions on the part of the administrative staff to introduce innovative new elements to gameplay and strong new personalities -- whether we were talking about defenders or imperialists or independents -- that brought people back into the fray and contributing together.

NationStates is a dispersed social stratosphere, there's all these small regions, communities, dotting the hinterland like remote tribes which will likely remain undiscovered and have no connection to the wider community except an occasional stopover by the travelling Featured Region groups. If that isolation is exacerbated, NationStates becomes a small, quieter place. If you reach out however, NationStates can become a much bigger, much more engaged place. That's the secret, I think.

If I'm allowed to get a bit philosophical: I believe that defending and invading form a kind of dialectic and when that dialectic unravels, history itself is unraveling and reaching a stasis. That's what I was trying to say in "Paradise Found" - and I think it's as relevant today as it was then. People have continually looked to a departisanization of Gameplay as a good thing, a maturation - when it really is a perennial sign of ethical surrender, a weakening raison d'être, which contributes to organizational decline, morale, and recessive growth.

[Lord Dominator]

and any tag can become a pile raid. You have to drill it into soldiers' heads that the work they're doing is purposeful, that you cannot identify a future occupation from a present tag raid.

Uh huh

[Unibot III]

and any tag can become a pile raid. You have to drill it into soldiers' heads that the work they're doing is purposeful, that you cannot identify a future occupation from a present tag raid.

Uh huh

It happen(ened) all the time. What appears to be a simple tag raid can become a long term occupation. You can't tell from the fact that the invasion was a part of a series of tags.

*Especially* if invaders miss their primary target, they'll occupy a 'lesser' target.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Uh huh

It happens all the time. What appears to be a simple tag raid can become a long term occupation. You can't tell from the fact that the invasion was a part of a series of tags.

*Especially* if invaders miss their primary target, they'll occupy a 'lesser' target.

This hardly ever happens anymore, but can confirm it used to be pretty common. And could always become common again.

[Unibot III]

It happens all the time. What appears to be a simple tag raid can become a long term occupation. You can't tell from the fact that the invasion was a part of a series of tags.

*Especially* if invaders miss their primary target, they'll occupy a 'lesser' target.

This hardly ever happens anymore, but can confirm it used to be pretty common. And could always become common again.

We shall fight on the seas and oceans! *waves his cane at the younglings, totally senile*

We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be--!!! *babbling to himself in his sofa chair* We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds! *rises with a salute* We shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills!!! We shall never surrender!!!

*his golden retriever, half awake, grumbles at the commotion*

[Blight-Bane]

I'm implying Tim is old, not fresh new leadership.

Ok, but why lay it all at Tim's feet? He's one of many as far as the 'old' leadership goes. If you've got some fresh new leadership ideas, I'm all ears.

If what you're trying to say is that invaders are focusing so much on tag-raiding (and relying on piling more than usual), that it's draining defender forces of morale and increasing their turnover rate: what I said still applies. I've led defender organizations through those droughts, they really kick you in the gut because most soldiers don't like spotting routinely day to day, week to week - you eventually burnout on a psychological level. And it's hard to generate enthusiasm when the only thing to do is stopping tags, detagging, and monitoring pile raids.

It's not so much what invaders are doing that's affecting morale and turnover. Tag chasing is probably one of the hardest things a defender does these days. It's daunting for a new recruit to be thrown into that fire without the tools necessary to succeed. Incremental training would help imo. Right from learning to cross up properly to keeping up with taggers for a full update. Detags are useful in that it teaches basic skills and success rates are high. I've seen people leave Libcord because they can't/don't like to chase, find detags boring, or if there's nothing planned. Big Libs are about the only thing that can consistently draw troops, but it's usually on very short notice and RL constraints affect us all.

I do not agree with 10XI's moratorium on defending tag raids. It doesn't stop invaders from tagging regions - and any tag can become a pile raid. You have to drill it into soldiers' heads that the work they're doing is purposeful, that you cannot identify a future occupation from a present tag raid. You're not a fortune teller, you're a defender: it's on you to defend, nobody else will. Every tag raid you stop is a region that cannot be griefed. Every native matters. Every home is a home worth protecting. You can't play 'not to lose', you have to play to win.

That's their decision and I'm fine with it. Tagging groups aren't overly large, and TGW has some elite chasers that make it competitive. I do think their troops would benefit from participating once in awhile though (independent of TITO of course). The skills involved pretty much run the gamut of what defenders need in their toolkit to be able to counter any raider threat. That said, to each org it's own.

[Vanquaria]

4000 less WA nations?! XD nooo is GP dying

[Lord Dominator]

It happens all the time. What appears to be a simple tag raid can become a long term occupation. You can't tell from the fact that the invasion was a part of a series of tags.

*Especially* if invaders miss their primary target, they'll occupy a 'lesser' target.

This hardly ever happens anymore, but can confirm it used to be pretty common. And could always become common again.

I mean, I guess it could.

[Unibot III]

It's not so much what invaders are doing that's affecting morale and turnover. Tag chasing is probably one of the hardest things a defender does these days. It's daunting for a new recruit to be thrown into that fire without the tools necessary to succeed. Incremental training would help imo. Right from learning to cross up properly to keeping up with taggers for a full update. Detags are useful in that it teaches basic skills and success rates are high. I've seen people leave Libcord because they can't/don't like to chase, find detags boring, or if there's nothing planned. Big Libs are about the only thing that can consistently draw troops, but it's usually on very short notice and RL constraints affect us all

I get that completely, I ran into the same issues. Burnout is an issue for senior defenders doing chasing long term, confusion/frustration is an issue for junior defenders thrown into chases unprepared.

When I say recruitment, I include incremental training as a component of that exercise.

That's their decision and I'm fine with it. Tagging groups aren't overly large, and TGW has some elite chasers that make it competitive. I do think their troops would benefit from participating once in awhile though (independent of TITO of course). The skills involved pretty much run the gamut of what defenders need in their toolkit to be able to counter any raider threat. That said, to each org it's own.

I've always found TITO has no problem criticizing other defender organizations, but expects others to not criticize them. Grub went as far as to accuse both FRA and the UDL at separate periods of being invaders. After I had Grub publicly call me an invader - after all the crap I and the rest of the UDL did to help native communities, while TITO did sweet fuck all - I really lost any commitment I had to the "to each it's own" maxim.

If you want to do nothing, fine, but don't go 'round calling the active spotters and liberators, "invaders." That was the last day I gave a shit what Grub, TITO or 10KI thought.