Neutral Ground - an Open Discussion Thread

[Solorni]

No, that's a different department. Why?

Pretty sure I read some weird intel disposition thing between you and Belschaft, talking about how you gave him an intel mission and not the responsibility to run his own missions.

[Roavin]

TSP and TGW are as thick as thieves. It may not be a conspiracy, but these two defender groups are as close to joined at the hip as you can get without surgery.

Related reading, third paragraph here.

No, that's a different department. Why?

Pretty I read some weird intel disposition thing between you and Belschaft, talking about how you gave him an intel mission and not the responsibility to run his own missions.

Ah, I know what you're referring to. That's about a year ago - our charter allows SPSF to establish a R/D intel program, but that never went anywhere and we've since changed some of the laws in that regard. Intel is run by the Council on Regional Security, which I'm not a member of.

[McChimp]

Related reading, third paragraph here.

Even when you're trying to say that TSP raids you can't resist the defenderist instincts to downplay TSP's raider activities. Not an important region, only an arbitrary one.

[Roavin]

Related reading, third paragraph here.

Even when you're trying to say that TSP raids you can't resist the defenderist instincts to downplay TSP's raider activities. Not an important region, only an arbitrary one.

The use of the word "arbitrary" isn't meant to downplay the target region, but rather it's referring to the selection process. It wasn't a region that was hit because there was a state of declared or implied war, but rather because it fit the parameters though it could have just as well been any other region that fit those parameters too. Thus, "arbitrary".

[Solorni]

Related reading, third paragraph here.

Even when you're trying to say that TSP raids you can't resist the defenderist instincts to downplay TSP's raider activities. Not an important region, only an arbitrary one.

Plus, TGW raids as well. It's like: "looks guys, we're not defenders we just do everything TGW would do!".

[McChimp]

Even when you're trying to say that TSP raids you can't resist the defenderist instincts to downplay TSP's raider activities. Not an important region, only an arbitrary one.

The use of the word "arbitrary" isn't meant to downplay the target region, but rather it's referring to the selection process. It wasn't a region that was hit because there was a state of declared or implied war, but rather because it fit the parameters though it could have just as well been any other region that fit those parameters too. Thus, "arbitrary".

You know that raiding is morally repugnant, right? That's actually, like, a community you just destroyed. I've talked with raiders and it's my opinion that, in my experience, they're nasty. Raiding is bad. You're evil.

So, like, me to you?:

[Solorni]

Raiders have hit some of my regions before; I still am in recovery.

[Hedley Verity]

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=881846

Now, as some of you might remember, independent news organisations have been known to have recent form for fabricating raider plots. TGU News (short for the region of The Great Universe) is no exception; indeed, despite its relative longetivity, it makes Euronews look like the Times of London. Here, I shall disect what is thusly the latest article from TGU News, succinctly titled "Lily Starts Feud with The Great Universe and The Black Hawks Try to Get Revenge".

TGU News: Raiders gonna hate hate hate hate, but baby I'm just gonna shake shake shake shake, shake it off, shake it off oh oh oh! So apparently Lily wants to pull a Pearl Harbor on us by raiding Nukemaina, The American Invaders and a couple of are other embassies. The Black Hawks on the other hand are looking to get revenge by raiding Alpha and Beta Quadrant of Milky Way.

My previous article (see above), as you remember, stipulated that Euronews was caught fabricating raider plots, but this appears to be a larger-scale plot leak (if you can even call it that). It is worth noting the status of the regions that these organisations are attempting to invade - Nukemaina is a small fish in the gameplay world (having embassies with two Capricornius and three TGU regions, and being occasionally taken by Lily), The American Invaders is TGU's military region (and unfortunately monikered for a region so opposed to raiding that its flag was once that of the Black Hawks crossed out), and ABQMY (as I will call it) is now a colony of a virtually unknown organisation.
All of these regions have active founders, so any intention other than tag raiding would not be likely. (It is worth noting that Capricornius and TGU are good allies, as symbolised by TGU giving up their "NO BLACK HAWKS" flag by using Capricornius vassal state C A R N I V A L's for now.) If anyone can provide sources for these claims (not least somebody from TBH, or a top-quality R/D spy), or wish to disprove them from an official TBH or Lily perspective, then I invite you to post as such over here in Neutral Ground. I have strong suspicions that these rumours of raids are exactly that, unsubstantiated rumours that will not happen (as opposed to genuine leaks which led TBH and Lily to cancel aforementioned raids).

Apparently they wanted a second War of 2017, which has started. However, the founder said , "Security is now are number 1 priority, we saw what happened when we tried to liberate Acropolis and failed. The Black Hawks came and destroyed the region, with the whole region in mass panic. Lily is on that train to, since they have raided are military and Nukemaina along with other regions. In the coming days there will be polls for are National Anthem, and to step up security. Thank you for listening."

The founder of TGU, The Universe World, is publically an outspoken* defender, but has let slip a TBH-TGU treaty stipulating that the Black Hawks must hand over a region to TGU if they invade TGU itself (which appears to have been broken). And besides, The Great Universe never did try to liberate Acropolis - it was a co-operation between various defender orgs, and no more than four nations have ever resided in The American Invaders (TGU's military region, as you remember) anyhow. If "security is now are number 1 priority", then going about voting on a regional hymn is hardly the best way to emphasise as such... is it not?
*although, admittedly, he got it wrong that time. The Farkers were the first raiders, not BLITZKRIEG.

That speech said it clearly, we need to advance are security and defense fair and square. A Dank Military recently updated the Regional Flag to fit the NO BLACK HAWKS theme with The Black Hawks flag with a red x on it. Thank you for reading and Rol Geo Dia for bringing in the Nukemaina story!

(Please keep in mind that Rol Geo Dia is actually Nukemaina's founder, not a random outsider.) It is a well-known fact that nothing - not even red crosses on flags - will deter people from doing harm in the future (the American flag has been burned for centuries, and it is still considered the world's only superpower). If terrorists are not perturbed by the lighting of candles in solidarity with the victims of terrorist attacks (let alone Charlie Hebdo's cartoons), then how do you expect people who have done much less harm to the world (such as raiders) to do so when they notice their regional flag being desecrated by a blatant defender region going under the guise of embassy-collectors?

[Reploid Productions]

I've talked with raiders and it's my opinion that, in my experience, they're nasty. Raiding is bad. You're evil.

Knock it off. You can hate on raiding without the flamebaity potshots at everyone who happens to engage in that particular game-legal activity.

[Onderkelkia]

In both cases, the two regions are technically of different alignments but the way they practice it is that the things they do on the battle field often match up.

How do the operations performed by Balder and the LKE match up anymore closely than, for example, those performed by Balder and Europeia?

In both cases, there is a high-profile individual holding the highest executive position in both regions (Onder in the case of Balder/LKE, myself in the case of TSP/TGW).

While the LKE Emperor has some executive powers, unlike the Monarch of Balder, and is not simply a ceremonial position, the Prime Minister is the LKE's head of government. It is the Prime Minister who is responsible for appointing ministers and presiding over the Imperial Council. The Imperial Government is constitutionally responsible for the formation and implementation of policy - including foreign policy within the framework of the LKE's wars and treaties.

This attempted comparison between LKE/Balder and TGW/TSP is nothing more than a spurious rhetorical device to counter allegations against TGW.

[Roavin]

Even when you're trying to say that TSP raids you can't resist the defenderist instincts to downplay TSP's raider activities. Not an important region, only an arbitrary one.

Plus, TGW raids as well. It's like: "looks guys, we're not defenders we just do everything TGW would do!".

Pfft, you weren't even trying with this one

TGW hits invaders, SPSF may but typically doesn't. SPSF will tag and occasionally occupy arbitrary regions, which TGW doesn't do. The differences are more than nuanced, really.

In both cases, the two regions are technically of different alignments but the way they practice it is that the things they do on the battle field often match up.

How do the operations performed by Balder and the LKE match up anymore closely than, for example, those performed by Balder and Europeia?

They might not, but that doesn't negate my point in any way.

In both cases, there is a high-profile individual holding the highest executive position in both regions (Onder in the case of Balder/LKE, myself in the case of TSP/TGW).

While the LKE Emperor has some executive powers, unlike the Monarch of Balder, and is not simply a ceremonial position, the Prime Minister is the LKE's head of government. It is the Prime Minister who is responsible for appointing ministers and presiding over the Imperial Council. The Imperial Government is constitutionally responsible for the formation and implementation of policy - including foreign policy within the framework of the LKE's wars and treaties.

Okay, I'll rephrase "highest executive" to "high executive" or even just "executive", but that also doesn't negate my underlying point in any way.

This attempted comparison between LKE/Balder and TGW/TSP is nothing more than a spurious rhetorical device to counter allegations against TGW.

TSP in this case, but it's not just rhetorical. The similarities are there, I've just explained them. And again, it's not a bad thing. Hell, I'm covering for you here, because the typical narrative outside of Balder's sphere of ideology and friends is that it's more or less a LKE puppet and I'm saying it's not the case.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I've talked with raiders and it's my opinion that, in my experience, they're nasty. Raiding is bad. You're evil.

Knock it off. You can hate on raiding without the flamebaity potshots at everyone who happens to engage in that particular game-legal activity.

McChimp is a raider, so I think he was being sarcastic or satirical. That may not change anything but I thought it was useful information.

[McChimp]

McChimp is a raider, so I think he was being sarcastic or satirical. That may not change anything but I thought it was useful information.

There was an offsite explanation. It's all fine.

[Onderkelkia]

How do the operations performed by Balder and the LKE match up anymore closely than, for example, those performed by Balder and Europeia?

They might not, but that doesn't negate my point in any way.

You are citing this as one of the supposed similarities which justifies the alleged refrain within pro-Defender circles that Balder is under the controlling influence of the LKE. If this supposed similarity in fact applies across a wider array of regions within the Independent sphere, then this is no more an indication of a sinister connection between the LKE and Balder than it is evidence of a sinister connection between any other regions within that sphere.

While the LKE Emperor has some executive powers, unlike the Monarch of Balder, and is not simply a ceremonial position, the Prime Minister is the LKE's head of government. It is the Prime Minister who is responsible for appointing ministers and presiding over the Imperial Council. The Imperial Government is constitutionally responsible for the formation and implementation of policy - including foreign policy within the framework of the LKE's wars and treaties.

Okay, I'll rephrase "highest executive" to "high executive" or even just "executive", but that also doesn't negate my underlying point in any way.

It does affect your underlying point, insofar as you are seeking to equate the situations of Balder and The South Pacific on the basis that they have the same head of government as a user-created region. It suggests that the relationship between policy-makers is stronger in one case than the other.

TSP in this case, but it's not just rhetorical. The similarities are there, I've just explained them.

Similarities which you have essentially conceded with your responses.

Your false equivalence benefits TGW as much as TSP, unless TGW wants to be regarded as TSP's puppetmaster.

[Solorni]

I feel like we need a real honest defender now.

[The NAtion OF Froggy]

I feel like we need a real honest defender now.

No, not at all.

[Solorni]

I feel like we need a real honest defender now.

No, not at all.

What's wrong with a honest defender?

[The NAtion OF Froggy]

No, not at all.

What's wrong with a honest defender?

If its the one I have in mind, it grew thin.

[Solorni]

What's wrong with a honest defender?

If its the one I have in mind, it grew thin.

Skinny shaming is not cool.

[The NAtion OF Froggy]

If its the one I have in mind, it grew thin.

Skinny shaming is not cool.

Good thing for you, I see through the games.

[The North Polish Union]

This attempted comparison between LKE/Balder and TGW/TSP is nothing more than a spurious rhetorical device to counter allegations against TGW.

Nah

[An Amphibious Equation]

So, who likes swimming in ponds? I do!

Codger, you got any latest crazy ideas?

[Wordy]

I like codger. Always has a cunning plan.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

You know that raiding is morally repugnant, right? That's actually, like, a community you just destroyed. I've talked with raiders and it's my opinion that, in my experience, they're nasty. Raiding is bad. You're evil.

The People for the Ethical Treatment of Raiders would like to talk to you

[McChimp]

The People for the Ethical Treatment of Raiders would like to talk to you

Goody. Lead the way. (PETRA? That's a pretty cool acronym opportunity there.)