The United Defenders League

[Mallorea and Riva]

there is no way any rational onlooker is going to believe what you're saying.

The question is: are you telling me that or are you telling yourself that? :/

>.> Any onlookers who honestly believe that there is an elite squad of fake nice people in The Black Hawks, whose job it is to befriend UDL updaters in order to get them to switch sides, please say so.

Major reason was the traction fallacy, especially in Spartz's case -- the more we'd try to convince you, the more you're pushed away.

Actually... your guilt trips were hard to resist, I have to admit. But I had already made the decision. Why would I stick with the side I enjoy less? Sure, I would still be a defender in name. But only because I was guilt tripped into staying. I wouldn't really want to be on the defender side, deep down inside. Also, even though you promised me that nobody would give me a hard time, or you'd "wrap them on the head," you turned out being the guy that gave me the hardest time. And that kinda stuff always pushes me away.

I totally agree with what Mall said here:

Erm the reason you guys had no shot in hell of getting me back was for a couple reasons. 1) I was certain of my decision. 2) It's not like you'd trust me back. 3) The things that were said to me after my switch, and no, no one on the NS forums is going to get any more detail than that. It happened off site, it's staying off site.

And I agree with what Spartz said, minus the part about guilt trips being hard to resist.

[Unibot II]

And that kinda stuff always pushes me away.

That's the point of what I'm saying. >_>

[Mallorea and Riva]

And that kinda stuff always pushes me away.

That's the point of what I'm saying. >_>

Which perhaps brings us back to what Jakker was getting at earlier.

[Unibot II]

That's the point of what I'm saying. >_>

Which perhaps brings us back to what Jakker was getting at earlier.

Spartz should have complained about my leadership to me, not Jakker.

[Casl]

Y'all damn silly boys n girls arguin over da past man.


Its clear mall and spartz hurt Uni or else he wouldn't be overdoing this theory.


Obviously they thought converting mall was a good idea, derp but its obvious that wasn't the entire basis....

[Mallorea and Riva]

Which perhaps brings us back to what Jakker was getting at earlier.

Spartz should have complained about my leadership to me, not Jakker.

When you were busy berating him? Or me? I don't want this thread to devolve into a Red Sea of moderator intervention, so keep in mind that I am not looking to bait you. I am simply responding to your absurd claims of conspiracy.

Y'all damn silly boys arguin over da past man.

Its clear mall and spartz hurt Uni or else he wouldn't be overdoing this theory.

Obviously they thought converting mall was a good idea, derp but its obvious that wasn't the entire basis....

You have no idea what's going on. If you aren't going to add to the conversation, and you don't care, why post?

[Casl]

Because random ass distracting posts take away from the hurtful conversation and start a different topic saving all of you from being angry and or just confused.

Stopping an argument through mediocrity!

[Rachel Anumia]

I thought raiders were supposed to be the ones who were big on the conspiracy theories...

It ALL sounds like a conspiracy to me now

[Sedgistan]

Just a suggestion - but in this case, it might be worth having a separate thread to discuss (both in general, and specific cases) why people switch sides.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Just a suggestion - but in this case, it might be worth having a separate thread to discuss (both in general, and specific cases) why people switch sides.

Since the focus here is on myself, Spartz, and rawr (to a lesser degree), former UDL members and current Black Hawks, is it still not appropriate to discuss it in the UDL thread? Especially with the accusation that UDL members are being poached.
Just wondering

[The Blaatschapen]

I thought raiders were supposed to be the ones who were big on the conspiracy theories...

Nah, from what I've seen in my long experience, all of Gameplay loves conspiracies.

[Sedgistan]

Since the focus here is on myself, Spartz, and rawr (to a lesser degree), former UDL members and current Black Hawks, is it still not appropriate to discuss it in the UDL thread? Especially with the accusation that UDL members are being poached.
Just wondering

It's okay, which is why my post was just a suggestion

[Mallorea and Riva]

Since the focus here is on myself, Spartz, and rawr (to a lesser degree), former UDL members and current Black Hawks, is it still not appropriate to discuss it in the UDL thread? Especially with the accusation that UDL members are being poached.
Just wondering

It's okay, which is why my post was just a suggestion

Well if Unibot continues the discussion in here then I don't mind it happening here, since he clearly believes the UDL is being targeted. If the conversation here changes but the issue is still of interest anyone could make a new thread. Thanks for the input

[Tramiar]

And that kinda stuff always pushes me away.

That's the point of what I'm saying. >_>

The point of what you're saying is "treating Spartzy like crap makes him less likely to do what i tell him to do"?

[Casl]

i was bored so i decided to make this post.


Post.

Bam.

Kaboom.

Why am i still bored? I made the post.

Boom?

Nope still bored.


*Yawn*

[Sedgistan]

<snip>

Unofficial warning for spamming. Cut it out.

[Rachel Anumia]

I'm not sure if I understand Unibot's complaint about people recruiting his members despite the fact that those members say that's not what happened.

It is well known that Unibot goes around asking people to join the UDL and he has done this with friends of mine. Given that he blatantly recruits (or tries to recruit) members from other regions, is the issue that he thinks it's better if people blatantly ask members of the UDL to switch?

[Tupelope]

The question is: are you telling me that or are you telling yourself that? :/

>.> Any onlookers who honestly believe that there is an elite squad of fake nice people in The Black Hawks, whose job it is to befriend UDL updaters in order to get them to switch sides, please say so.

So. I would not be surprised in the slightest if people were manipulated into joining either faction.

[Mahaj]

It is well known that Unibot goes around asking people to join the UDL and he has done this with friends of mine. Given that he blatantly recruits (or tries to recruit) members from other regions, is the issue that he thinks it's better if people blatantly ask members of the UDL to switch?

Being in another region and joining the UDL are not mutually exclusive. You should know that.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Which perhaps brings us back to what Jakker was getting at earlier.

Spartz should have complained about my leadership to me, not Jakker.

Something Eluvatar does on a regular basis

[Drop Your Pants]

Being in another region and joining the UDL are not mutually exclusive. You should know that.

And thats essentially it. Other defender groups who involve regions don't lose as many members to the raider side because they'd be losing the trust of their home regions (if they're members). The main problem with UDL is its just a non-region group, so its easier to poach members

I'd love to know the number of nations UDL has poached off other regions.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Being in another region and joining the UDL are not mutually exclusive. You should know that.

And thats essentially it. Other defender groups who involve regions don't lose as many members to the raider side because they'd be losing the trust of their home regions (if they're members). The main problem with UDL is its just a non-region group, so its easier to poach members

I'd love to know the number of nations UDL has poached off other regions.

There's still definitely a community. Mall's comments indicate to me that more than one person were seriously upset by what they saw as personal betrayal.

I suppose the issue is the UDL also involves commitment to an idea which has become surprisingly unpopular. That defending helps natives.

[Drop Your Pants]

I haven't actually heard any natives complain about being defended Minus non-WA raider natives.

[The Blaatschapen]

I haven't actually heard any natives complain about being defended Minus non-WA raider natives.

Orbonion is not a non-WA: http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=1119321

[Rachel Anumia]

I suppose the issue is the UDL also involves commitment to an idea which has become surprisingly unpopular. That defending helps natives.

That's a strawman argument. For me, what bothered me and many others most about the UDL was the attitude and actions of some of it's members. In particular the prominent ones in the leadership. It's a group that says it's about helping the natives yet:

- When challenged to start a democratic convention in Balder, Unibot personally attacks me.
- When Europeia withdrew from North Carolina, the UDL attempted to liberate it for publicity rather than working on regions where longer occupation was the goal.
- Came up with faux reasons to attack the FRA in Balder (which were later changed to a "moral" argument, which was only to gain press).
- Tons of examples of hypocrisy

I think it's wrong to say that "well, these people have concerns because they were always anti-UDL". That hasn't been the case for many people who see what the UDL does and says "wow, what is this... I don't even...". I think that people in the UDL have deceived themselves into thinking that "oh, everyone has a grudge against us and is against defending and wants to steal our members...". But, that's not how it works and I think it's clear to many people that things don't change.

The ironic part is that the way the UDL has dealt with deflections is that it's proving people right about the nature of the organization and certainly not helping it.

But, Eluvatar must be right. If you don't like the UDL, you're not a legitimate member. You have always harboured dislike over the idea of defending and cannot have your own opinions.