The United Defenders League

[Sedgistan]

Why would I complain? Every single member of the moderation staff is absolutely infallible and completely impartial.

In which case you agree with CG's judgement 100%, you'll stop throwing out accusations of trolling and spamming - and you'll get back on topic.

[Anemos Major]

I don't think it is insulting, I thought it was funny The loud noises thing is a movie reference

Doesn't look like many others find it funny - humour at other people's expense tends to be insulting for them, in case you didn't know that.

If you want to insult the UDL, there're many private places to do it. An informational thread by the UDL, for the UDL, isn't one of those. Thanks for your understanding in advance.

[Sedgistan]

An informational thread by the UDL, for the UDL, isn't one of those. Thanks for your understanding in advance.

You misunderstand. There's no thread ownership in Gameplay, and if an organisation posts a thread about itself, it's fair game for others to discuss the organisation in that thread. This is not a 'UDL members only' thread - you have your forums for that. It's not a factbook either - you can use NSwiki and suchlike for that. It's for discussion of the UDL. That includes discussion from those who are critical of the organisation. Please refrain from telling people not to post.

[Unibot II]

Why would I complain? Every single member of the moderation staff is absolutely infallible and completely impartial.

In which case you agree with CG's judgement 100%, you'll stop throwing out accusations of trolling and spamming - and you'll get back on topic.

Ah okay.. wait.. we can't criticize raiders in the thread, but they can criticize us?

[Crazy girl]

Accussations of rule-breaking (under which spamming and trolling fall) should be done in Moderation (if done on the forum) or through the GHP (if done ingame). You know this, it's nothing new.

Now, back on topic.

[Anemos Major]

You misunderstand. There's no thread ownership in Gameplay, and if an organisation posts a thread about itself, it's fair game for others to discuss the organisation in that thread. This is not a 'UDL members only' thread - you have your forums for that. It's not a factbook either - you can use NSwiki and suchlike for that. It's for discussion of the UDL. That includes discussion from those who are critical of the organisation. Please refrain from telling people not to post.

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=8623828#p8623828

Do posts like the above constitute discussion? Or do they constitute 'snarking', as established here?

Sorry, I'm new here, so I'm not quite sure how the system of rules, precedent and judgement works. All a bit confusing.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Report it in the Moderation forum and find out.

[Sedgistan]

<snip>

Fris clarified his comments just below that post; clearly they don't apply in this case.

[Unibot II]

*turns away from the mods and addresses the crowd*

Well, I think that people out there watching from their television screens should be thoroughly critical of what we say since we sort of have a motivation for what we say. Defenders are trying to defend their organization, raiders.. people who are political against us are trying to belittle us for obvious reasons. So you should expect that these sorts of threads are mostly semi-truths or flat out lies and debasement and will churn cyclically. Nonetheless, I care a lot about The United Defenders League -- like a lot of people on the staff, I don't get a lot of sleep because I'm trying to grow and develop the organization in the hopes that we're able to fulfill our oaths and help out regions like yours in your time of need. Defending is difficult, it's not a task you can complete with enough energy and enthusiasm -- sometimes you're just bound to be left disappointed and oftentimes the only thing left that you have is your mouth, but you have nothing left that's worth saying. I don't handle those situations well but when I do, I like to re-take my oath and live to fight another day.

[Anemos Major]

So this is a discussion thread, then! In which case, I'll put it succinctly.

I don't know about you, but I don't gloat when I do an easy job. Gatecrashing an unsuspecting region and knocking out the delegate is easy. It's beyond easy; it's like taking candy from a corpse. Getting into that region, dislodging a bunch of ready and waiting occupiers, and reclaiming the region for those who actually own it? That's difficult.

's pretty much the long and the short of it, guys. It's not too hard to see that, even from the eyes of an inexperienced RPer like myself.

[Mallorea and Riva]

So this is a discussion thread, then! In which case, I'll put it succinctly.

I don't know about you, but I don't gloat when I do an easy job. Gatecrashing an unsuspecting region and knocking out the delegate is easy. It's beyond easy; it's like taking candy from a corpse. Getting into that region, dislodging a bunch of ready and waiting occupiers, and reclaiming the region for those who actually own it? That's difficult.

's pretty much the long and the short of it, guys. It's not too hard to see that, even from the eyes of an inexperienced RPer like myself.

Keeping in mind that there is one ready and waiting occupier, that my number of endorsements has actually decreased since the beginning of the raid, and that you all have had seven updates to complete the simple task of dislodging me, I'd say that enjoying my side's successes is understandable. I won't get into your comments on raiding since you haven't participated in it, and therefore are not familiar with the difficulties.

[North Wiedna]

you all have had seven updates to complete the simple task of dislodging me,

It's far from simple, mate. UDL is terribly understaffed in the updater department. Not only do you have to match the number of endorsements the invader delegate has, you have to surpass it to account for kicks. We rarely have enough people to get close to that number.

[Mallorea and Riva]

you all have had seven updates to complete the simple task of dislodging me,

It's far from simple, mate. UDL is terribly understaffed in the updater department. Not only do you have to match the number of endorsements the invader delegate has, you have to surpass it to account for kicks. We rarely have enough people to get close to that number.

I understand exactly what complications go into planning and carrying out liberations. I understand the difficulties perfectly. Still, coming up on four days of occupation, and the number of endorsements I have is perfectly reasonable.

[Ballotonia]

I understand exactly what complications go into planning and carrying out liberations. I understand the difficulties perfectly. Still, coming up on four days of occupation, and the number of endorsements I have is perfectly reasonable.

Maybe if invaders were to stop using the UDL as a place to recruit?

Either way, it seems to me you folks are left playing the game by yourselves. I already said you won. What more is there left to say?

Ballotonia

[SunRawr]

I understand exactly what complications go into planning and carrying out liberations. I understand the difficulties perfectly. Still, coming up on four days of occupation, and the number of endorsements I have is perfectly reasonable.

Maybe if invaders were to stop using the UDL as a place to recruit?

Either way, it seems to me you folks are left playing the game by yourselves. I already said you won. What more is there left to say?

Ballotonia

As much as you guys refuse to believe it, we do not actively recruit your members. They approach us, not the other way around.

[Opaloka]

If you can't make a liberation happen, make a Liberation happen.

I'm telling you, the UDL is only useful against small groups that raid. For large groups their response is "make loud noises!"

Damn right! Their absence in 'catholic' other than SC noises was stunning. Meanwhile they must be sooo proud of their success in making 'pact of steel' safe for Nazis.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Maybe if invaders were to stop using the UDL as a place to recruit?

Either way, it seems to me you folks are left playing the game by yourselves. I already said you won. What more is there left to say?

Ballotonia

As much as you guys refuse to believe it, we do not actively recruit your members. They approach us, not the other way around.

Rawr is correct. Don't make up excuses, they won't do you any good.

[Rachel Anumia]

I understand exactly what complications go into planning and carrying out liberations. I understand the difficulties perfectly. Still, coming up on four days of occupation, and the number of endorsements I have is perfectly reasonable.

Maybe if invaders were to stop using the UDL as a place to recruit?

Either way, it seems to me you folks are left playing the game by yourselves. I already said you won. What more is there left to say?

Ballotonia

But the UDL is the group which proclaims loudly when they recruit members from other regions...

[Mahaj]

I'm telling you, the UDL is only useful against small groups that raid. For large groups their response is "make loud noises!"

Damn right! Their absence in 'catholic' other than SC noises was stunning. Meanwhile they must be sooo proud of their success in making 'pact of steel' safe for Nazis.

You have got to be fucking joking. You're a 'captain' in The Red Fleet (have they never heard of 'standards' ?), and yet, you go into Catholic and endorse the raider lead. You know who else was endorsing the raider lead? Lone Wolves United? What did they do? They promoted their working with Nazi regions.

A captain of The Red Fleet abandoned the mission of his comrades to assist a raider group along with others who supported working with Nazis, and then has the gall to criticize the UDL for helping Nazis (despite the policy of not defending Nazis).

Ridiculous.

[Tramiar]

I understand exactly what complications go into planning and carrying out liberations. I understand the difficulties perfectly. Still, coming up on four days of occupation, and the number of endorsements I have is perfectly reasonable.

Maybe if invaders were to stop using the UDL as a place to recruit?

Either way, it seems to me you folks are left playing the game by yourselves. I already said you won. What more is there left to say?

Ballotonia

I realize Uni's whining and complaining might make you believe what he has to say, but in this case its entirely untrue. We don't recruit in UDL, as much as you want to use that as an excuse to make yourselves feel better.

[Unibot II]

Maybe if invaders were to stop using the UDL as a place to recruit?

Either way, it seems to me you folks are left playing the game by yourselves. I already said you won. What more is there left to say?

Ballotonia

I realize Uni's whining and complaining might make you believe what he has to say, but in this case its entirely untrue. We don't recruit in UDL, as much as you want to use that as an excuse to make yourselves feel better.

From the looks of things you've been making a concerted effort to befriend the UDl and the FRA's strongest major updaters (Rawr, Mall, Spartz). I don't see you giving the lovey-dovey join-the-family treatment to a lot of our non-updaters. Just because they chose to switch doesn't mean they were not manipulated into joining.

The tactics of making people switch from defending to raiding is pretty simple: 1) You convince them that raiding is the more "fun" and "friendly" side by subtly hinting, 2) You have to push away the subject's defender friends by noting that if defender-friends try to convince them to stay defending they don't care about what's best for them ... so you can use the traction between defenders against itself so the harder friends try to convince one another to stay together in the group... the more they're pushed away, 3) you target major updaters because they're well trained and do the bulk of the work (or in Spartz's case, he was a triggerman) but they are also burnt-out a little... you have to subtly hint that its their break from spotting and work.

[The Blaatschapen]

I realize Uni's whining and complaining might make you believe what he has to say, but in this case its entirely untrue. We don't recruit in UDL, as much as you want to use that as an excuse to make yourselves feel better.

From the looks of things you've been making a concerted effort to befriend the UDl and the FRA's strongest major updaters (Rawr, Mall, Spartz). I don't see you giving the lovey-dovey join-the-family treatment to a lot of our non-updaters. Just because they chose to switch doesn't mean they were not manipulated into joining.

The tactics of making people switch from defending to raiding is pretty simple: 1) You convince them that raiding is the more "fun" and "friendly" side by subtly hinting, 2) You have to push away the subject's defender friends by noting that if defender-friends try to convince them to stay defending they don't care about what's best for them ... so you can use the traction between defenders against itself so the harder friends try to convince one another to stay together in the group... the more they're pushed away, 3) you target major updaters because they're well trained and do the bulk of the work (or in Spartz's case, he was a triggerman) but they are also burnt-out a little... you have to subtly hint that its their break from spotting and work.

Uni, now that you put it that way: It looks to me that the defenders have a motivation problem.

[Jakker]

I think you're missing a major reason why people switch. They don't like the leadership and organization of the group they are leaving.

[Mahaj]

I think you're missing a major reason why people switch. They don't like the leadership and organization of the group they are leaving.

You criticize Unibot's leadership a lot. And then you just leave it like that, without backing it up or anything.

Which sucks.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I realize Uni's whining and complaining might make you believe what he has to say, but in this case its entirely untrue. We don't recruit in UDL, as much as you want to use that as an excuse to make yourselves feel better.

From the looks of things you've been making a concerted effort to befriend the UDl and the FRA's strongest major updaters (Rawr, Mall, Spartz). I don't see you giving the lovey-dovey join-the-family treatment to a lot of our non-updaters. Just because they chose to switch doesn't mean they were not manipulated into joining.

Please, spare me. I can speak for myself thank you very much. I befriended Rawr and Tramiar, decided I wanted to give raiding a try, and then switched. Never did they actively try and cause me to switch, nor have they ceased being my friends now that I am on their side. I genuinely enjoy talking to them and raiding.

The tactics of making people switch from defending to raiding is pretty simple: 1) You convince them that raiding is the more "fun" and "friendly" side by subtly hinting, 2) You have to push away the subject's defender friends by noting that if defender-friends try to convince them to stay defending they don't care about what's best for them ... so you can use the traction between defenders against itself so the harder friends try to convince one another to stay together in the group... the more they're pushed away, 3) you target major updaters because they're well trained and do the bulk of the work but they are also burnt-out a little... you have to subtly hint that its their break from spotting and work.

1. Well your first supposition is just wrong. Raiding is not, objectively speaking "more fun" for everyone. I know people who have tried both and prefer defending. I simply disagree. As for the friendly aspect that isn't true. I'm a raider. I raid regions. Ebil.
2. Again that's not what happened, you guys didn't even know I was switching until it happened, so clearly there was no friction there.
3. Burnt out? Ask anyone on the raiding side, I constantly brag about how good of a spotter I am. I prefer raiding however. Raiding isn't a break. It is work in a different way, I just so happen to enjoy the culmination of work in raiding more.

You take these switches as a huge TBH conspiracy, and on some level to an outside it might seem like one. In reality, however, I can attest to the fact that The Black Hawks did not reach out to me, I reached out to them.