The United Defenders League

[Rachel Anumia]

Keep in mind, if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

So then TITO and the FRA are what?

[Blaat]

Keep in mind, if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

So then TITO and the FRA are what?

They're part of the solution. Though it just might be like an IKEA closet. After getting it together you always have this one piece left over

[Rachel Anumia]

If only Belgium was Sweden, then we could also get the meatballs

[Blaat]

If only Belgium was Sweden, then we could also get the meatballs

Well, you(the general you) could have picked them as a target instead

[Campinia]

If only Belgium was Sweden, then we could also get the meatballs

Well, you(the general you) could have picked them as a target instead

No, because Sweden has a founder. Raiding that would be hard.

[Rachel Anumia]

Or it could be a defender trap in the making!

[Blaat]

Well, you(the general you) could have picked them as a target instead

No, because Sweden has a founder. Raiding that would be hard.

So it would actually be a real challenge

[Tramiar]

No, because Sweden has a founder. Raiding that would be hard.

So it would actually be a real challenge

Raiding Sweden wouldn't be challenging. You just couldn't hold it. And thats not a challenge, its just stupid. There's no way to resist a founder who wants you out.

[Unibot II]

Raiding Sweden wouldn't be challenging. You just couldn't hold it. And thats not a challenge, its just stupid. There's no way to resist a founder who wants you out.

The first half of last year your group's did mostly raids where you didn't hold onto the regions... and you still bragged about those even though now that's "stupid". :/

[Tramiar]

Raiding Sweden wouldn't be challenging. You just couldn't hold it. And thats not a challenge, its just stupid. There's no way to resist a founder who wants you out.

The first half of last year your group's did mostly raids where you didn't hold onto the regions... and you still bragged about those even though now that's "stupid". :/

No, i mean it would be stupid to raid it and hold like we are in belgium. Sorry for not being specific

[Unibot II]

The first half of last year your group's did mostly raids where you didn't hold onto the regions... and you still bragged about those even though now that's "stupid". :/

No, i mean it would be stupid to raid it and hold like we are in belgium. Sorry for not being specific

Alrighty, my bad.

[Riemstagrad]

every attempt to discredit the UDL because they failed a liberation or a defense is worthless, and you know it.

UDL fails against an active delegate with 22 endorsements. but at least you can't afford being not online at update with your 22 endorsements, because you know you will get the boot.
and you're bragging that you can take delegacy from an inactive delegate with only 1 endorsement? how powerful must you be....

on Belgium:

Belgium believes that the UDL is a great organisation, and can in no way be blamed for what is going on in our region at this very moment.
You moved in around 100 invaders, wich required a combined effort of 9 organisations plus freelancers.
this number makes it technically impossible to liberate the region but of course we all know that it is not fighting a war that you want.

many thanks for the UDL and all other defenders for the support we allready received.

[Rachel Anumia]

Look, I don't see the big reason to be so upset. There has been no malice shown towards natives and hence, there is no reason to believe that Belgium is in danger. It is just like Stargate and North Carolina. Much of the animosity has been due to people who were already pre-disposed. But even with that animosity, this raid has been very peaceful. Why bring the fire and brimstone when it does no good and simply escalates situations?

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Yes to what Rachel is saying. Some raiders have expressed to me how frustrating it is to be called bullies, griefers, mean people, etc. They don't like getting cussed out every time we get a major win. It drives some to actions toward natives that might not otherwise be taken, just to spite defenders. There's sometimes a feeling of "well, if everyone thinks we're (fill in the blank) why not live up to the name?"

I'm not saying that's justified. What I'm saying is that the heated moralistic rhetoric is NOT helping you. Personally, I'm getting pretty sick of it myself.

EDIT: That was a bit off-topic. After reading what she was replying to, there actually wasn't much of that rhetoric going on in this thread. But there has been a good bit of it flying around in general.

[Blaat]

Yes to what Rachel is saying. Some raiders have expressed to me how frustrating it is to be called bullies, griefers, mean people, etc. They don't like getting cussed out every time we get a major win. It drives some to actions toward natives that might not otherwise be taken, just to spite defenders. There's sometimes a feeling of "well, if everyone thinks we're (fill in the blank) why not live up to the name?"

This is a bit of chicken and egg story at best though. There *are* raiders who grief. And with the so called raider unity, all others condone it(hence the whole thread about moderate raiding I guess). Either the raiders break the unity or they can choose to stop the griefing of natives (which is btw indeed not happening in Belgium so far).

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Yes to what Rachel is saying. Some raiders have expressed to me how frustrating it is to be called bullies, griefers, mean people, etc. They don't like getting cussed out every time we get a major win. It drives some to actions toward natives that might not otherwise be taken, just to spite defenders. There's sometimes a feeling of "well, if everyone thinks we're (fill in the blank) why not live up to the name?"

This is a bit of chicken and egg story at best though. There *are* raiders who grief. And with the so called raider unity, all others condone it(hence the whole thread about moderate raiding I guess). Either the raiders break the unity or they can choose to stop the griefing of natives (which is btw indeed not happening in Belgium so far).

It's ok to criticize the broader community of raiders for not disavowing the actions of griefers within it. That's a conversation that can be had. I won't be on the same side as you in that discussion, but I'm ok with that discussion taking place.

But that's not exactly what's happening. Mostly, I'm seeing personal attacks on the character of individual raiders for actions that are NOT griefing. Most of these attacks are not taking place on-site, so perhaps it's not appropriate for discussion on these forums, but whatever. It's still happening.

[Blaat]

This is a bit of chicken and egg story at best though. There *are* raiders who grief. And with the so called raider unity, all others condone it(hence the whole thread about moderate raiding I guess). Either the raiders break the unity or they can choose to stop the griefing of natives (which is btw indeed not happening in Belgium so far).

It's ok to criticize the broader community of raiders for not disavowing the actions of griefers within it. That's a conversation that can be had. I won't be on the same side as you in that discussion, but I'm ok with that discussion taking place.

Naturally I would expect you to be on the other side of the discussion.

But that's not exactly what's happening. Mostly, I'm seeing personal attacks on the character of individual raiders for actions that are NOT griefing. Most of these attacks are not taking place on-site, so perhaps it's not appropriate for discussion on these forums, but whatever. It's still happening.

If it's happening offsite, then here is indeed not the most appropiate place to discuss those. If you see me (as, in, me personally) doing that, you can call me out on it by a polite TM asking for clarification or on said place where it takes place.

Back on topic: What's happening in the UDL?

[Casl]

Look, I don't see the big reason to be so upset. There has been no malice shown towards natives and hence, there is no reason to believe that Belgium is in danger. It is just like Stargate and North Carolina. Much of the animosity has been due to people who were already pre-disposed. But even with that animosity, this raid has been very peaceful. Why bring the fire and brimstone when it does no good and simply escalates situations?

Actually everyone hated the raiders in Stargate, they were ejecting some of our members for not posting on the RMB or just saying you suck.

Stargate was a nightmare that decreased my regions activity ten fold from before the raid.

[Rachel Anumia]

Not sure what the actually was for... StarGate would have been pre-disposed given their treaty with the UDL. Although that wasn't really the point of my comment, which I made in more detail here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=162737

[Casl]

And that justifies the raiders killing our activity? Nearly our community and banning random members?

They are griefers to me, nothing more, if stargate dies then i leave NS, i will hold true to that.

Stargate is the one reason i joined the UDL, to cut short the annoying hell we sat through for weeks, at christmas no less.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

As a point of information, no one has been banned in Belgium who resided in the region before the raid began.

[Cromarty]

Look, I don't see the big reason to be so upset. There has been no malice shown towards natives and hence, there is no reason to believe that Belgium is in danger. It is just like Stargate and North Carolina

North Carolina isn't a very good example to use, seeing as the raiders posted a joke about incest and southerners on the WFE, and at least one native has since complained about said joke.

[Solm]

As a point of information, no one has been banned in Belgium who resided in the region before the raid began.

Which, I am sure the natives are very thankful for. However, I believe most of the arguments made in this thread have been over the hurtful ejecting and banning in regions like Iran and Stargate, the former was just to "spite the UDL." It still, however, disrupts the native community to a very large degree. Although, I'm not a moral defender and defend because its a lot of fun to defend, raids that actively attempt to destroy native communities I take a stand against regardless of the enjoyment from defending. Personally, the pile-up raids are getting boring, they harm the native communities more than anything, provide little enjoyment to either sides (raiders who just sit their idle (for the most part), and defenders who have quite a hard time trying to get 100 updaters to liberate a region), and just generate animosity, I'd like to see more tagging raids (I find them quite fun to defend against , but that might just be me) and quick raids that aren't piled-up, just more regions done that don't hurt the native communities. Would allow me to do a lot more fun liberations and would make the military sub-game, in my opinion, a lot more fun and enjoyable to both sides.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

North Carolina isn't a very good example to use, seeing as the raiders posted a joke about incest and southerners on the WFE, and at least one native has since complained about said joke.

That was one guy, and the mods were called on him and they did their duty. That doesn't reflect raider policy, nor did it foreshadow any organized griefing of the region.

Stargate was a nightmare that decreased my regions activity ten fold from before the raid.

There have been an average of 5 posts on the Stargete RMB per day since General Hammond has returned to the delegacy. I'm not really seeing the evidence of permanent damage to your activity levels...

Although, I'm not a moral defender and defend because its a lot of fun to defend, raids that actively attempt to destroy native communities I take a stand against regardless of the enjoyment from defending. Personally, the pile-up raids are getting boring, they harm the native communities more than anything, provide little enjoyment to either sides (raiders who just sit their idle (for the most part), and defenders who have quite a hard time trying to get 100 updaters to liberate a region), and just generate animosity, I'd like to see more tagging raids (I find them quite fun to defend against , but that might just be me) and quick raids that aren't piled-up, just more regions done that don't hurt the native communities. Would allow me to do a lot more fun liberations and would make the military sub-game, in my opinion, a lot more fun and enjoyable to both sides.

See, but even when we do what you're suggesting, we still get called bullies and thugs on the forum, and much worse on MSN. Personally, I agree with you. But it's frustrating to hear the same tired rhetoric from your comrades-in-arms that we in the raider community are destroying communities, ruining everyone's fun, and ought to do everyone a favor and leave the game. I don't see posts like yours very often.

I think, however, that this branch of the discussion might belong better over here, if it continues: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=162737, and leave this thread to the discussion of the UDL and recent happenings in Belgium, Stargate, NC, etc.

[Cromarty]

North Carolina isn't a very good example to use, seeing as the raiders posted a joke about incest and southerners on the WFE, and at least one native has since complained about said joke.

That was one guy, and the mods were called on him and they did their duty. That doesn't reflect raider policy, nor did it foreshadow any organized griefing of the region.

Was any mod action taken? I honestly don't recall any.

I wasn't disputing Rachel's point, only that NC was a bad example to use, mainly because the natives complained over the baiting/trolling in the WFE.