NATION

PASSWORD

The Rejected Times Opinion Piece - TITO, TRR, And Ideology

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
Not a roleplaying forum.
User avatar
Oliver the Mediocre
Diplomat
 
Posts: 581
Founded: Aug 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

The Rejected Times Opinion Piece - TITO, TRR, And Ideology

Postby Oliver the Mediocre » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:07 pm

TITO, TRR, And Ideology
When Extremism Reigns


The views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and not those of the Rejected Realms, the Rejected Times, or any other body.

In the past twenty-four hours, the Rejected Realms has seen the Ten-Thousand Islands Treaty Organization (TITO) decide to close its borders and ip-ban some prominent members of its society. I do not dispute the right of TITO to do something like this; I dispute the wisdom of it.

I have heard TITO described as an organization which "sets itself apart" from others by holding true to its ideology even in the face of staunch opposition. It also sets itself apart from other regions by enforcing this ideology on its members; indeed, in TITO, things can be very accurately, if cynically, described as "Grub's way or the highway."

This status is not widely questioned in TITO. The sense I get is this can best be explained by mixed support for the strong ideological bent, which is somewhat ruthlessly enforced, and some degree of trepidation with regards to the consequences of questioning it. A prominent TITO Knight was recently released from his service and his name wiped from the records in disgrace because he became too closely associated with a prominent invader. Private support for the action was, sources tell me, mixed, but publicly nearly all of TITO stood behind the decision.

Keeping the above in mind, lets turn our attention now the address presented by TITO Officials in closing the Embassy. It should be noted that in recent weeks, a number of invaders and invader-sympathetic persons have joined the Rejected Realms, myself among them. Grub speaks of "a cancer" which has been allowed to grow in the Rejected Realms; he means us. He also cites the Rejected Realm's history of neutrality (with strong defender sympathies), and claims that we have lost our way and drifted into the mire of invaderism.

I have to question the worldview which is expressed here. It's absurd to tar the whole of TRR with the same brush as Sedge. It’s absurd to suggest that the Rejected Realms can be as picky as TITO would be about the people it lets in. For my readers who are not aware, the Rejected Realms cannot eject or ban any nations from its shores. So while the faceless masses stand behind Grub and say we should not let such people stay, I have to ask: How can we make them leave?

Distressing also is the concept that the government of the South Pacific, a game-created region, has the same sense of ownership and sovereignty territory as Ten-Thousand Islands, a user-created region, has over its. The circumstances are different, but TITO applies the same criteria to each. This is the very definition of folly. Different circumstances require different points of view.

In the end, it comes down to ideology. Ideology will cause TITO to call TRR to jump through hoops which make no sense; TITO has called for TRR to abandon the invaders, and abandon Sedge and Crazy Girl, while positing that the issue of Sedge and Crazy Girl being our Forum Admins should be no barrier to action. We have been called, indirectly, to change forums to please TITO. It is not reason which calls for such things, but blind adherence to an ideology which is ill-formed for situations of this nature. But still the faceless masses stand behind Grub, and raise their fists, and cheer.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs in the South Pacific, one HEM, has given us this statement: "Mistakes have been made by both sides, but I truly believe that talking -- not turning backs -- is the way to a long term era of progressive cooperation." TITO will not heed this warning. Ideology will get in the way. The very victim of the coup for which TITO is beating its breast and howling bloody murder counsels diplomacy and conversation. And yet the faceless masses will stand behind Grub, waving their fists and cheering, because their ideology says that Grub is right. And if they disagree with the ideology, then TITO doesn't want them.

Ideology, and the blind adherence to it, leads people to act irrationally, and it leads people to do damn silly things, like taking a former ally and rejecting them without speaking to them, condemning them without trying to redeem them, and pulling away when one should be moving closer. But TITO won't learn this lesson; their ideology prevents it.

--Written by Oliver Dion-Grey
Oliver Marlowe
Quote Love
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time."

User avatar
-Echolilia-
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 14
Founded: Jul 04, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby -Echolilia- » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:07 pm

(You seem to be confused between the region 10000 Islands and TITO. The two are not the same.)

My understanding is that 10000 Islands views having an embassy with another region as a form of endorsement of that region, so it does not maintain embassies with regions that support invaders1. Period, full stop. And having members of a regional government participate in invasions constitutes support. And yes, the TRR government can eject members from the government should it so choose; ejection from the region has nothing to do with it. Note that not maintaining embassies doesn't mean not talking...it just means, well, not maintaining an embassy.

1 Yes, I am aware that Crazy Girl and others somehow believe a game-created region's government has less validity in some way than a user-created region's government, and that that somehow makes the recent events not an invasion, but that isn't my position and, I believe, isn't Grub's or that of the 10000 Islands.
Last edited by -Echolilia- on Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Unibot II
Senator
 
Posts: 3852
Founded: Jan 10, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibot II » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:19 pm

Well that was a waste of time. Perhaps you're over thinking the situation and attempting to layer it too deeply with libel. 10000 Islands is a defender region. Sedge whilst still TRR's Foreign Affairs minister conducted a mission to destabilize the South Pacific for his goal of activity (which is the same justification most raiders use when they raid) -- at least two officers knew about this mission and abetted Sedge, including the delegate who did her best to suppress Dev's identity and even wrote a scorning diplomatic piece about those darn 'kingmakers' of the FRA and the 'illegitimate', non-Sedge-coup'd South Pacific government that she was planning not to recognize... by recognizing it, in a speech, about not recognizing it. *whistles*

That's disturbing, let alone the trend for the Rejected Realms to appoint raiders for officer positions, like yourself and Earth22 -- the former who may still be actively raiding and uses his media powers in the Rejected Realms as a raider pulpit. I'd have been a little amazed if Grub hadn't abolished your embassies.

It seems very convenient for the Rejected Realms to attempt to diplomatically spite any region that removes its embassies with them, I hope readers see through this libel. Also, I love how any position contrary to Oliver's is 'extremism' and 'ideological', whereas Oliver's own position of moral relativism is obviously the bastion of moderation and sensibility (as opposed to the extreme and self-contradicting absolute of no absolutes that it actually is in reality).
Last edited by Unibot II on Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
General Halcones wrote:Look up to Unibot as an example.
Member of Gholgoth | The Capitalis de Societate of The United Defenders League (UDL) | Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL?
World Assembly Card Gallery // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78;
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

User avatar
Walabamba
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 118
Founded: Jul 13, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Walabamba » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:39 pm

In terms of the "faceless masses" I don't think you did your research for this little paper very well. The decision was made by the council of nine, 5 of whom are elected by the citizens of 10000 Islands. The other 4 consist of Grub and the 3 ministers who are trusted members of the community. This decision was not made lightly and we gave you plenty of time to resolve your issues. You failed to do so and in my opinion there shouldn't have been a question about it. Frankly, I was surprised the deliberation took that long but it shows the amount of time the "faceless masses" took to debate and consider what has happened to the RR.
Last edited by Walabamba on Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Avenio wrote:The Canadian ubermensch will soon sweep out of the North and devour the world in a thousand-year reign of darkness, as decreed by Dear Leader Harper from his fortress at Barad-dûr, also known as Calgary. So Canada, obviously.

User avatar
Just Guy
Envoy
 
Posts: 309
Founded: Sep 16, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Just Guy » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:29 am

Unibot II wrote:That's disturbing, let alone the trend for the Rejected Realms to appoint raiders for officer positions, like yourself and Earth22 -- the former who may still be actively raiding and uses his media powers in the Rejected Realms as a raider pulpit. I'd have been a little amazed if Grub hadn't abolished your embassies.


A neutral region would not stop people from serving in its government due to their position in the R/D game. This is one of the characteristics of neutrality, and 10KI exchanges embassies with most feeders, in which a raider would also have no problem being appointed or elected into a governmental position. You would scream and shout if any of the feeders/sinkers were to prohibit defenders from attaining government office, and likewise, raiders are not stopped from doing so either. That's neutrality -- and like it or not, TRR is neutral.

Furthermore, point me to any abuse of power by Ollie, and it will be dealt with. Until then, please do not make such libelous allegations in public.

Earth's appointment as Officer has completely corrupted the RR, hasn't it? I mean, an invader sending telegrams to natives... Oh no... *rolls eyes*

Unibot II wrote:Also, I love how any position contrary to Oliver's is 'extremism' and 'ideological', whereas Oliver's own position of moral relativism is obviously the bastion of moderation and sensibility (as opposed to the extreme and self-contradicting absolute of no absolutes that it actually is in reality).


There is no moral relativism here, only someone advocating for people to abandon their extremist ideology, and try to be more accepting of other people and positions. There is a difference between a strict black and white point of view, and holding some positions. The former breeds hate, the latter doesn't.
Elindra doing the Defenders' propaganda for the day:
Kshrlmnt wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Defenders are naturally disadvantaged in NationStates

One thing I like about raiding.

User avatar
Darenjo
Minister
 
Posts: 2178
Founded: Mar 31, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Darenjo » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:38 am

It's things like this that make me feel that TITO and the FRA are on their way out. The days of large, inter-regional defensive alliances are (at least for a while) over.

I do have to agree with Oliver and Guy that TITO made the wrong response to the whole thing. Sedge + Crazy Girl =/= TRR. It was unfair to push the blame on a whole region; they also admonish the amount of time that it takes for TRR to get things done. Doesn't that tend to signify a larger, more active regional government? It's like TITO's condemning TRR for thinking things over.

I also have to agree with Guy that just because a region has raiders in the government does not mean it is an inherently raider nation. If you have raiders, defenders, and neutral nations (as TRR) does, then you are neutral. I joined Dharma for the WA, but I have to say it is one of the most extreme defender regions I have ever seen. Shame; we could use some defender-raider dialogue.
Dr. Park Si-Jung, Ambassador to the World Assembly for The People's Democracy of Darenjo

Proud Member of Eastern Islands of Dharma!

User avatar
MinnaCaroline
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 15
Founded: Mar 28, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby MinnaCaroline » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:48 am

Darenjo wrote:It's things like this that make me feel that TITO and the FRA are on their way out. The days of large, inter-regional defensive alliances are (at least for a while) over.


That's just wishful thinking on your part.

User avatar
Ad Infinitum
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 124
Founded: Feb 03, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Ad Infinitum » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:58 am

Darenjo wrote:It's things like this that make me feel that TITO and the FRA are on their way out. The days of large, inter-regional defensive alliances are (at least for a while) over.


I agree. Large, inter-regional defensive alliances are frequently riddled with corruption and backstabbing amongst its very own leadership. It leads to too much politicking and not enough ass-kicking on the battlefield. Apologies to my buddies over at FRA, but nearly a decade of observation hasn't really changed my opinion.

That said, it's too bad TITO is only a single-region military. Check yo facts.
Problem solved. Problem staying solved.

User avatar
Cerberion
Diplomat
 
Posts: 993
Founded: Apr 22, 2010
Corporate Police State

Postby Cerberion » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:23 am

As stated in the OP. This is an opinion piece by a self admitted raider. It can hardly be unbiased.

You have the owner of TRR's forum and a forum administrator now displaying pro-invader attitudes. Even if their only interest is invading or performing coups in feeder regions it is effectively the same thing. Why on earth would any defender region want to hold relations with this type of leadership?

We spent about three weeks deciding on what action to take regarding the relationship between TRR and 10KI. All we received from our enquiries was the stock press release.

The delegate even admits that there is no way to really sanction the two forum administrators, so I personally feel for TRR as it sounds like the delegate and citizens are completely powerless to control their own region.

So what are we to do? Believe in neutrality when the two people who hold the real power behind the region are clearly not neutral? Believe the RRA can operate as a defender organization when they couldn't make a move without the forum administrators being able to view and use the information as they saw fit?

You are, in essence, asking us to trust in the word of a region that has the sword of damoclese held over it's head, where they follow the lead of the owners of their forum, or risk losing it and their history.

Our problem is not with TRR, it's with it's leadership.

User avatar
Whamabama
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 368
Founded: Feb 04, 2008
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Whamabama » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:18 am

Funny how everyone wants to call this an invasion, yet no outside forces moved in to take control.

People want to claim it was an invasion because the one who took control was an outsider, yet TSP wants to try Sedge for treason, because he is a former prime minister of TSP. Yet at the same time they will of course call it an invasion when it suits the PR front.

I say it was an internal matter. All evidence says it was an internal matter. No outside forces, former government member, a trial for treason.

People may want to call this coup the same thing as a raid, but it's not the same. If you think it is, well I guess you should call webster's and argue with them. Tell them your definitions are far superior to their's.

To end my post. TRR forums are not being controlled by raiders, or raider sympathizers. They are neutral.

In the end everyone's entitled to have an opinion. Even if it's off base, and wrong.

"The sovereignty of one's self over one's self is called 'liberty'."
Founder of Equilism
E-Army Officer
Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms
Equilism's Forum http://www.equilism.org/forum/index.php?act=idx

User avatar
Naivetry
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1294
Founded: Aug 02, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Naivetry » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:31 am

Unibot II wrote:including the delegate who did her best to suppress Dev's identity and even wrote a scorning diplomatic piece about those darn 'kingmakers' of the FRA and the 'illegitimate', non-Sedge-coup'd South Pacific government that she was planning not to recognize... by recognizing it, in a speech, about not recognizing it. *whistles*

Uni, I know this has become personal for you. I know you don't believe in keeping confidences, no matter the cost. I am sorry that I failed to live up to your expectations by not exposing Sedge to the world. But there are things on which I will not compromise, and one of them is abusing any trust that has been placed in me - whether or not I asked for it - in order to favor any one player or group of players over any other. That includes my friends and my enemies both, or it's a meaningless commitment.

I'm not sure what you find so ridiculous about our statement on TSP. This sort of thing happens all the time in politics (both NS and RL). A statement that you're severing relations is meant to have an effect. It's a big flashing sign between regions that says, "Hey, we're here, you've got our attention, and we want to be sure we have yours, because we think there's a problem here that needs fixing."

That's disturbing, let alone the trend for the Rejected Realms to appoint raiders for officer positions

First, our Officers are elected. Second, the last I checked, Ollie and Earth had applied for citizenship and been accepted just like Guy or you yourself. Or are you in the camp now that says raiders shouldn't be allowed to hold citizenship in a neutral region? A region that, by the way, is still home to an exclusively defender army.

It seems very convenient for the Rejected Realms to attempt to diplomatically spite any region that removes its embassies with them, I hope readers see through this libel.

I trust readers to read, and notice that Oliver's opinion piece here is 1) not a statement from our region, 2) not a piece of diplomatic spite, and 3) not libel, which is defined as a false and defamatory statement of fact. Now, the only statement of fact I am aware of that has been noted as inaccurate is the confusion of TITO with 10000 Islands as a whole. While that is certainly an error, I doubt that the citizens of 10000 Islands think of it as a libelous one. ;)

Re: "diplomatic spite"... I would direct you to our response to Wysteria's embassy closure, our last statement in our embassy on 10kI's forums, and our response to 10000 Island's embassy closure.

Whatever "diplomatic spite" there may be between TRR and other regions over embassy closures is coming solely from them to us, as I hope the links above have made clear. Please feel free to link to any evidence you may have that suggests otherwise. Does all the hatred and ostracism bother us? Yeah, a bit - especially the defenders in our region, those who supported SB, and the vast majority of our 40+ registered citizens who knew nothing about any of this. But so far, we haven't responded in kind, despite the fact that it's always a temptation to treat others with the same disdain and prejudice they show to you. To assert that we have done otherwise, my friend, and to be unable to back up your claims with facts... that is libel. Do I blame you (or anyone) for being angry? Of course not. But I would hope that, even in your anger, you would hold yourself to the same standards of behavior you expect from others.

User avatar
Naivetry
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1294
Founded: Aug 02, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Naivetry » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:11 am

Cerberion wrote:All we received from our enquiries was the stock press release.

Simply not true.

The delegate even admits that there is no way to really sanction remove the two forum administrators, so I personally feel for TRR as it sounds like the delegate and citizens are completely powerless to control their own region. access the admin control panel.

Fixed for great justice. Let me be clear. If I'd known the prerequisite for maintaining relations with 10000 Islands was for TRR to leave our own forums, I would have told you not to wait 2 weeks before making your decision.

Believe the RRA can operate as a defender organization when they couldn't make a move without the forum administrators being able to view and use the information as they saw fit?

Wop and Guy aren't dummies. IF they thought Sedge and CG were going to... what are you thinking, secretly pass information about liberation attempts to Halcones? - they would be perfectly capable of coordinating by other means. Thankfully, neither I nor anyone else I know in TRR is under that particular delusion.
Last edited by Naivetry on Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cerberion
Diplomat
 
Posts: 993
Founded: Apr 22, 2010
Corporate Police State

Postby Cerberion » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:04 pm

Naivetry wrote:
Cerberion wrote:All we received from our enquiries was the stock press release.

Simply not true.

Perhaps I am mistaken. I had not read your post on June 18th. I was referring Grub's direct communications with the delegate.
Having now read the statement on June 18th, the story seems more or less a summary of what we had already determined.

Still if Sedge is removed from his office democratically at some undetermined point in the future, we'll take another look.

The delegate even admits that there is no way to really sanction remove the two forum administrators, so I personally feel for TRR as it sounds like the delegate and citizens are completely powerless to control their own region. access the admin control panel.

Fixed for great justice. Let me be clear. If I'd known the prerequisite for maintaining relations with 10000 Islands was for TRR to leave our own forums, I would have told you not to wait 2 weeks before making your decision.

Actually, we'd just like to see TRR be able to make decisions without fearing that maybe their admin would kill their board. Sedge did do similar things to another offsite forum before, didn't he?
Or at least some of the content on the forum.
It certainly wasn't a pre-requisite. If CG wants to hand the forum over to the elected delegate to manage, then that would have been sufficient.

Believe the RRA can operate as a defender organization when they couldn't make a move without the forum administrators being able to view and use the information as they saw fit?

Wop and Guy aren't dummies. IF they thought Sedge and CG were going to... what are you thinking, secretly pass information about liberation attempts to Halcones? - they would be perfectly capable of coordinating by other means. Thankfully, neither I nor anyone else I know in TRR is under that particular delusion.


The jury is still out on that one, IMO. Time will tell.

All we've basically heard is that CG and Sedge remain in office. They remain the real power behind TRR because they have the exclusive power over the forum. We've heard that the citizens are free to take steps democratically to remove Sedge from office, but if I was a citizen I'd think twice before pissing off someone that had previously wiped parts of a forum when he left a region.

I know that we aren't going to be able to resolve this dispute easily, but with luck it will blow over one day.

User avatar
Crazy girl
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 6276
Founded: Antiquity
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Crazy girl » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:15 pm

If I would have to wipe the RR forum every time someone there pissed me off, it would've been wiped clean plenty of times :P

So could you kindly stop spreading nonsense? :)
Last edited by Crazy girl on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Sedgistan
Site Director
 
Posts: 35487
Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:19 pm

Cerberion wrote:Actually, we'd just like to see TRR be able to make decisions without fearing that maybe their admin would kill their board. Sedge did do similar things to another offsite forum before, didn't he?
Or at least some of the content on the forum.

Er, a few of my posts. :roll:

And you're not interested in TRR residents being able to make their own decisions, or you wouldn't be complaining about TRR residents electing an invader as an Officer (Earth22). Whoops.

User avatar
Oliver the Mediocre
Diplomat
 
Posts: 581
Founded: Aug 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Oliver the Mediocre » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:54 pm

Sedgistan wrote:And you're not interested in TRR residents being able to make their own decisions, or you wouldn't be complaining about TRR residents electing an invader as an Officer (Earth22). Whoops.


Unanimously, I might add. Including Frattastan, Silver Steps, Felasia, Drop Your Pants, Wopruthien, Cocodian, Northern Chittowa, and Guy. Such a list of horrible invader-sympathizers has clearly never been seen in one place. :palm:

As for the TITO/XKI thing... it's all Grub. It doesn't really matter which of you I cite, or who made the decision, because at the end of the day, Grub gets what he wants, whether you feel comfortable with it, make yourselves feel comfortable with it to avoid pissing him off, or whether you just pretend to feel comfortable with it; Grub gets what he wants. So TITO/XKI.. same thing, in my mind.
Last edited by Oliver the Mediocre on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Oliver Marlowe
Quote Love
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time."

User avatar
Cerberion
Diplomat
 
Posts: 993
Founded: Apr 22, 2010
Corporate Police State

Postby Cerberion » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:11 pm

Crazy girl wrote:If I would have to wipe the RR forum every time someone there pissed me off, it would've been wiped clean plenty of times :P

So could you kindly stop spreading nonsense? :)


Actually, I was pointing more at Sedge as someone who has, in the past, wiped portions of a regional forum. This is what I have been informed took place over at the GRA forum.

If that is incorrect, please correct me.

I am not stating that anybody will do something, I am merely stating that it is extremely unnerving living in a community where you know that it could happen.

Allow me to paint a picture.

I invite you over to stay at my house. We get along fine for a while, but then you decide that you don't like how I run my home. Are you going to say to me that I need to get out and leave my home behind?

Of course not. You'd either keep your opinion quiet or you'd move on.

If Grub suddenly decided to become a raider, how would the members of 10KI feel? We couldn't exactly tell Grub to get the hell out of 10KI, now could we? Nope, we'd have to either abandon our ideology or leave our NS home.


Still, I will admit something. I am now commenting on how TRR runs their region and that is none of my business. Likewise it's nobody elses business how 10KI is run.

I shall reserve my opinions on TRR from now on.

I will make one final statement. The fact that so many people have been flustered by this topic, and the fact that so many of us are taking time to voice our concerns, indicates that we do care what happens to TRR, and we do care that there is a break in the relationship between TRR and 10KI.

If we really didn't give a rats rear end we'd have closed it out a day after the truth about the coup was revealed.

User avatar
Oliver the Mediocre
Diplomat
 
Posts: 581
Founded: Aug 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Oliver the Mediocre » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:17 pm

Nai can correct me if I'm wrong, but this announcement came as something of a shock to me at least. I don't know what other diplomatic channels were tapped about the issue, but I'm not seeing much of a dialogue between XKI and TRR here, just a long uncomfortable silence followed by the breaking of relations. Because you care. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, maybe I'm just an evil invader bastard, but this doesn't sound like somebody who cares. It sounds like somebody who wants to sound like they care.

TRR's borders are open to anybody. Why didn't you start by sending a few people you trusted to join up and stand up for the principles you thought we'd lost? Why didn't you send diplomatic messages saying "We're concerned about our relationship, and this is what's concerning us, and if things keep moving down this road, the relationship may have to change."? It's like you've responded to one instance of cheating in a relationship by ending it even though the relationship was 8 years old (which is like a 20 year marriage, if we adjust NS time for rl time)... surely if our relationship has been as good as you claim, it would have warranted trying to work with us before spurning us into the cold?

I guess I wouldn't know, though. I'm just the invader bastard without any morals, right? Maybe take some time to evaluate your own principles before telling us we're failing to maintain ours.
Oliver Marlowe
Quote Love
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time."

User avatar
Crazy girl
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 6276
Founded: Antiquity
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Crazy girl » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:20 pm

And banning us from your forum will definately help to fix it. It's not like I've ever done anything for 10KI, right?

User avatar
Cerberion
Diplomat
 
Posts: 993
Founded: Apr 22, 2010
Corporate Police State

Postby Cerberion » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:34 pm

Your delegate can confirm or deny if 10Ki attempted to make any kind of contact to sort this out.

It's also standard practice to ban known invaders. Yes I know that you don't consider the actions in TSP as an invasion, but we do.

Your delegate however is still very much active on the forum and we are continuing dialog on the subject there, and to my knowledge there will be no reason to change that situation.

User avatar
Crazy girl
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 6276
Founded: Antiquity
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Crazy girl » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:43 pm

And where did I invade?

And honestly, to call someone an invader based on one single incident is ridiculous, by that statement you could call yourselves invaders as well.
Last edited by Crazy girl on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9027
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:53 pm

Crazy girl wrote:And honestly, to call someone an invader based on one single incident is ridiculous, by that statement you could call yourselves invaders as well.

How many times does one need to invade a region to be called an invader? Twice? Twenty times?

User avatar
Oliver the Mediocre
Diplomat
 
Posts: 581
Founded: Aug 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Oliver the Mediocre » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:54 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Crazy girl wrote:And honestly, to call someone an invader based on one single incident is ridiculous, by that statement you could call yourselves invaders as well.

How many times does one need to invade a region to be called an invader? Twice? Twenty times?

I wonder how many people XKI's going to need to purge now.. Wopruthien invaded once. Is he an invader? Unibot invaded once. Is he an invader?
Oliver Marlowe
Quote Love
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time."

User avatar
Kanaia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 367
Founded: May 05, 2005
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Kanaia » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:57 pm

Oliver the Mediocre wrote:A prominent TITO Knight was recently released from his service and his name wiped from the records in disgrace because he became too closely associated with a prominent invader. Private support for the action was, sources tell me, mixed, but publicly nearly all of TITO stood behind the decision.


Time to get better sources.

Sedgistan wrote:And you're not interested in TRR residents being able to make their own decisions, or you wouldn't be complaining about TRR residents electing an invader as an Officer (Earth22). Whoops.


TRR can make their own decisions, and deal with the consequences.

Oliver the Mediocre";p="6041025"As for the TITO/XKI thing... it's all Grub. It doesn't really matter which of you I cite, or who made the decision, because at the end of the day, Grub gets what he wants, whether you feel comfortable with it, make yourselves feel comfortable with it to avoid pissing him off, or whether you just pretend to feel comfortable with it; Grub gets what he wants. So TITO/XKI.. same thing, in my mind.[/quote]

TITO and XKI are 2 different entities. Grub is our leader, but isn't our sole decision maker. But you can believe what you would like.

[quote="Oliver the Mediocre wrote:
Nai can correct me if I'm wrong, but this announcement came as something of a shock to me at least. I don't know what other diplomatic channels were tapped about the issue, but I'm not seeing much of a dialogue between XKI and TRR here, just a long uncomfortable silence followed by the breaking of relations. Because you care. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, maybe I'm just an evil invader bastard, but this doesn't sound like somebody who cares. It sounds like somebody who wants to sound like they care.


This thread and your posts in it are doing nothing but sowing discord between TRR and 10KI.

Crazy girl wrote:And banning us from your forum will definately help to fix it. It's not like I've ever done anything for 10KI, right?


At this point I believe that you are viewed as a security concern due the fallout for TSP, but you would have to contact Grub/CO9 for clarification.
[violet] wrote:Never underestimate the ability of admin to do nothing.

User avatar
Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9027
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:58 pm

Oliver the Mediocre wrote:I wonder how many people XKI's going to need to purge now.. Wopruthien invaded once. Is he an invader? Unibot invaded once. Is he an invader?

Both were at one point, then, yes. I don't know who Wopruthien is, but I do know that Unibot is no longer an invader, given his activities in defender groups since then.

I mean, it's not exactly a difficult distinction to make, here. If you invade a region, you're an invader. You can change that, but until you do, you're still an invader.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Gameplay

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Countriopia, Not Gagium, Vussul

Advertisement

Remove ads