Ever Considered Raiding?

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Yes, this is true. Most raiders don't bother with refounds unless its a defender affiliated region. Some don't for moral reasons, some just because it's too much of a pain in the ass. But it's very rare. I myself have only tried once, in Euroislanders. I can tell you personally it takes a bit more than a split second.

But seriously, why all this talk of right and wrong? I have no interest in defending the ethics of my position, and why others do is beyond me. It's a game, not reality.

[Isworld]

We're not all baby-eating horrible monsters

You're not? Then I have no business with you, nor you with me (although my region dosen't raid, BTW).

[Mike the Progressive]

Hardly. Fenders at least act with good intentions. Look I won't lie, I use to raid too. And it was fun at the time, but it was because I ignored the whims of natives, I didn't really care. It was about my glory and my region's...But having gone on missions with TITO, having had my old region become founderless and my present one raided, I've become somewhat of a "convert." Regions aren't trophies, they are homes, they are cultures, they are societies constructed and built from the ground up for God knows how long it took. And in a split second they are destroyed, unfairly, immorally and unjustly.

It just isn't right.

What isn't right is a founder who leaves his region to die, then, when it's pointed out, kicks half the remaining natives.

Oh the lunacy of such a statement. Surely when the founder or founding fathers of a country dies, the country is not therefore immediately up for grabs, that their existence is no longer just. As if there are two separate points in time, the line being the death of a founder or founders.

Not to mention shouldn't said natives, who actually are natives, rule themselves, rather than be plagued by foreign intervention? Did Unknown learn anything from Islandia? That the natives, when I initially found it, took it upon themselves, prior to your raid, to found their own region (Alterra)? That your interest only came when few natives were left, though I still around. That you targeted it merely because I was a member of TITO?

Posh, come now. Surely you can do better than that.

[-St George]

Having tried both raiding and defending, I've come to the conclusion that whenever raiders and fendas meet on the fora, bs is sure to follow.

Like all things, its the people doing raiding/fending that make it either twattish or not.

I will admit to being slightly more liking of fendas than raiders but that's really only because I've seen too many raided regions rmb's that are full of gloating that just annoys me.

Most individual raiders I've has interaction with are all right tbh.

[Numero Capitan]

My dearest Numero:

I can't pretend that Unknown hasn't done some rather questionable raids in the past; we have. We are also, I think, moving away from that style of raiding. I generally return a region's WFE and flag after the raid, and I've had several regions rather enjoy the liveliness that comes with us. My favorites are the region that posted an insanely long poem, and the WAD who TGed me thanking me for livening things up.

I will promise you one thing: no raid I lead will ever aim to destroy a region. My conscience wouldn't let me do that--as I've said, I raid for fun and not destruction.

Oh, and--Numero? If you're the one I've heard about, I suppose you'd know about things getting nasty....

(Image)

Well I'm glad to hear it.

I agree that 'defenders' as a group can't claim to have any moral high ground. Far too many defenders only do it for the fun of it and encourage raiding because it 'gives them something to do', and would probably just as happily swap sides or hypocritically raid a raider regions.

I defend because I've seen firsthand the harm that raiding causes to communities and all the hard work that people have put into their regions only for someone to come and tear up in an instant because it is their idea of 'fun'. I take great offence to anything that claims raiding is 'fun for all' as a result.

There is a reason that the FRA will defend raider regions and deploy against their own allies if their actions are questionable, because many of us share the belief that raiding in any form is wrong and harmful to the game. If it was just about one side versus another for friendly competition then our regions would spend all our time in Warzone wars.

And Klaus/Devestation/Avakael/NerveCenter/Feroxian/AllMajesty/ModernElectronic/HeadOfWar or whatever you're calling yourself this week, no offence but I don't think you're really in a position to give me a history lesson on Unknown..

[Kshrlmnt]

I had a nation in Islandia several months ago. I didn't plan to do anything with it in Islandia; after all, it was a foundered region. Then the founder, Mike the Progressive, moved to The 10000 Islands.

Being a raider, of course that annoyed me a bit. But what really got under my skin was that the region was left to die--a fair-sized region with a culture of its own left vulnerable because its founder didn't feel like being a founder any more. A large portion of the natives left for Alterra, to rebuild what they'd lost. Leaving about 15 somewhat inactive nations in a region whose founder didn't care any more. It ticked me off.

So I told Mike what I thought of it, in the way he could least ignore.


He responded by kicking myself and the other raider, and half the remaining natives, none of whom had had any part in the matter.


And when I told him I didn't approve at all, he said he didn't care. He didn't even remember that the natives had moved to Alterra.


Now he's back, Islandia is flourishing once again. Which, I think, proves my point.

I suppose it's obvious that the whole matter ticks me off. CTEing is one thing; tossing your region in the trash is irresponsible. It does worse than changing a WFE and flag will ever do.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

And Klaus/Devestation/Avakael/NerveCenter/Feroxian/AllMajesty/ModernElectronic/HeadOfWar or whatever you're calling yourself this week, no offence but I don't think you're really in a position to give me a history lesson on Unknown..

You totally missed Imperialia, I am dissapoint.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Well I'm glad to hear it.

I agree that 'defenders' as a group can't claim to have any moral high ground. Far too many defenders only do it for the fun of it and encourage raiding because it 'gives them something to do', and would probably just as happily swap sides or hypocritically raid a raider regions.

I don't understand what is hypocrtical about that at all.

I defend because I've seen firsthand the harm that raiding causes to communities and all the hard work that people have put into their regions only for someone to come and tear up in an instant because it is their idea of 'fun'. I take great offence to anything that claims raiding is 'fun for all' as a result.

There is a reason that the FRA will defend raider regions and deploy against their own allies if their actions are questionable, because many of us share the belief that raiding in any form is wrong and harmful to the game. If it was just about one side versus another for friendly competition then our regions would spend all our time in Warzone wars.

Well, all that depends. A lot of raiding is harmless. See The Black Hawks. Most of what they do is simple tagging, a nuisance at best. Then there's griefing, and the harm in that is plainly obvious. If I had my way, I'd be more of an imperialist, taking control of a region and never relinquishing it until it was pryed from my hands. Why? Because to hell with right and wrong. Conflict is the essence of the world, what makes it go round. And if NS is a simulation, then the same must hold true here. I have zero interest in convincing any defender that there is ethical value in my position. I hope we can just agree to hate each other. Of course we can still be civil, but in the end I need an enemy. Not an opponet, an ENEMY. Raiding not only can be destructive toward regions, it should be. As far as the game as a whole, well that's a more complex issue. In the end activity rules all, and raiding does generate activity. Enough to warrant it's destructiveness in my opinion.

[Mike the Progressive]

-snip-

Ah hogwash. My departure resulted in the birth of a great region. And yes at the time I didn't care if the natives stayed or not. But I never banjected them. I only did those who claimed the region for another.

And that's kind of made my point, I left and the natives forged together to move on and make something even greater. But it wasn't because you guys raided the place, it was because I left and never ejected them. They could organize themselves, they could plan and they could do great things. And they did. But how did Unknown contributed in anyway?

So again where is the fault here? Or the logic? Yeah I was a bit callous in saying what I did, but at the time it was the truth. I wasn't residing there, I announced that I was leaving, and I did. It didn't mean Unknown had any just reason to invade, except the ones you make up from the top of your head.

[Numero Capitan]

And Klaus/Devestation/Avakael/NerveCenter/Feroxian/AllMajesty/ModernElectronic/HeadOfWar or whatever you're calling yourself this week, no offence but I don't think you're really in a position to give me a history lesson on Unknown..

You totally missed Imperialia, I am dissapoint.

*chuckles*

It wasn't meant to be a comprehensive list, I left a load of randoms out too like Vulcanlander, WarPache et al

EDIT: wait, Imperialia was a region they raided too wasn't it? whoops, confusing myself. Yeah I missed loads out, there were about 20 'trophy' regions that had been destroyed or refounded when they CTE'd that Saudi went round on his ''cruor pilgrimages' that I haven't even bothered including.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

...nope, Imperialia is just another KD name. Keep trying.

[Free Noldor States]

I want to raid because it’s fun. It’s fun to do bad things. I want to do hoodrat stuff with my friends. So I suggest everyone try doing the hoodrat thing and raid some regions. You'll find it to be awesome.

[Savaer]

Mysteria (still kept as a trophy by an Unknown member)
Was CTE'd already and Dream Killers refounded it as a vacation region/resort for raiders, idea aborted. No refound, raid or Griefing done by Unknown or TBoB troops.

The Shadowlands (still kept as a trophy by an Unknown member)
Original founder and owner is aware and does not care, in fact, said holder of Shadowlands forum founder offered said forum as a potential colony forum and eventually the building ground for an Anti-nivogal group. latter was abandoned because despite all animosity, he's not worth the effort to eliminate entirely. And he does pretty good at getting himself axed.

Prussia Reborn (still kept as a trophy)
Yup. I be the owner now. And since you want to dig up old dirt, how do you sleep knowing that you could have saved it simply by giving yourself up? Or did Falco never tell you about that little ultimatum?

The Federal Alliance of Nations (no longer a region)
CTE'd on its own. I refounded it as apparently the natives didn't give a crap at the time. So shoot me. We did raid it, and Senzations revived, kicked us and let me back in. *shrug* Not sure how that counts as griefing.

- They attempted and failed to password and destroy the Imperial Empire.
We never attempted a password on EITHER raid. First raid was accidental (literally. the two soldiers were running around with fendas on their asses and updated there.) second time, and I believe Goobergunchia and Sedge can both attest, pending they remember, that I point blank told them our intentions, which was to kick two defender puppets (Scoochi2 and Dense Matter) from the region, we did so and promptly left TIE without any further 'native' bans or kicks.

- They passworded and attempted to destroy Michigan.
That was New Folsom.

- Attempted to grief and destroy Sweden
Yeah, yeah we did. Rather, I did. Soldiers followed orders, but only those who were TBoB former members really had a burn urge on it.

- Attempted to destroy Free Thought alongside their allies
Meh. Ava is quite right. I think i sent a mate of mine cuz he's useless as a soldier.

- Attempted to destroy/grief 404 Region Not Found
We did? I recall often using it as a decoy because Grub seemed to love on it, but i don't recall Unknown ever taking the region.

- Destroyed the region Time
Ah, bitter about that are you? Let's see... region of 4 nations... 3 of were owned by the raid point the FRA inducted as the WAD. the fourth was a defender friend of hers. Yeah. Totally a butchery. I mean, you don't get any nastier than that.


Yes, I did feel a need to correct some pieces of your little spin attempt, Berkley Run. For all your spying, you didn't do a very good job of bookkeeping, did ya, man?

Anyways, being as apparently individuals get off to dashing a good try at exposing people to something that is fun for the participant...

Take it from someone that got into raiding and has been to every spectrum of its course, from intel, to regional destruction, to rapid strike deployment, to sleeper hits, it is fun. Some people really don't have the fortitude for it, and that's a truth. Some it's a moral issue. Some it's just they'd rather be the reactor to the proaction.

Wanna sit around mashing refresh for two hours hoping to see something happen? Be a defender. You want to actually do something? Be a raider. Me, I like being the catalyst. I can't stand waiting around staring at one thing (and yes, I've done spot-work a couple times out of boredom.... and it put me to sleep.)

[Numero Capitan]

Hey Sav, how have you been?

The Shadowlands (still kept as a trophy by an Unknown member)
Original founder and owner is aware and does not care, in fact, said holder of Shadowlands forum founder offered said forum as a potential colony forum and eventually the building ground for an Anti-nivogal group. latter was abandoned because despite all animosity, he's not worth the effort to eliminate entirely. And he does pretty good at getting himself axed.

Lol, very true

Or did Falco never tell you about that little ultimatum?

Nope, never recieved anything of the sort, you should probably employ better messengers

The Federal Alliance of Nations (no longer a region)
CTE'd on its own. I refounded it as apparently the natives didn't give a crap at the time. So shoot me. We did raid it, and Senzations revived, kicked us and let me back in. *shrug* Not sure how that counts as griefing.

Senzations? I'm guessing you mean Sanzar or I'm very confused?

- They attempted and failed to password and destroy the Imperial Empire.
We never attempted a password on EITHER raid. First raid was accidental (literally. the two soldiers were running around with fendas on their asses and updated there.) second time, and I believe Goobergunchia and Sedge can both attest, pending they remember, that I point blank told them our intentions, which was to kick two defender puppets (Scoochi2 and Dense Matter) from the region, we did so and promptly left TIE without any further 'native' bans or kicks.

It wasn't passworded at either of the times you were delegate, but either Saudi or St Mason passworded it with the password "templervirtue" and attempted to refound it. You were there as "The Hunsa" along with 18 other nations from TBoB and New Folsom.

- They passworded and attempted to destroy Michigan.
That was New Folsom.

You know that it wasn't, it was led by Rogiera when he was commander of the IAF and he had Unknown and New Folsom in there (plus a few Black Hawks). GSBC and St Constantine (I think) were in there as Unknown forces and the lead was your head of military.

- Attempted to grief and destroy Sweden
Yeah, yeah we did. Rather, I did. Soldiers followed orders, but only those who were TBoB former members really had a burn urge on it.

You can try and take full responsibility all you want but Gerzam and GSbC were dead set on destroying the region too (and no doubt Damis, but I don't have the quotes to back that one up ).

- Attempted to destroy Free Thought alongside their allies
Meh. Ava is quite right. I think i sent a mate of mine cuz he's useless as a soldier.

Not got a record of who owns the puppets involved unfortunately but A Darker Past was definitely in there as an Unknown soldier and I'm pretty sure thats not the individual you're referring to

- Attempted to destroy/grief 404 Region Not Found
We did? I recall often using it as a decoy because Grub seemed to love on it, but i don't recall Unknown ever taking the region.

Maybe I'm thinking of another region then, apologies

- Destroyed the region Time
Ah, bitter about that are you? Let's see... region of 4 nations... 3 of were owned by the raid point the FRA inducted as the WAD. the fourth was a defender friend of hers. Yeah. Totally a butchery. I mean, you don't get any nastier than that.

yeah I was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to pick up on that one

Take it from someone that got into raiding and has been to every spectrum of its course, from intel, to regional destruction, to rapid strike deployment, to sleeper hits, it is fun. Some people really don't have the fortitude for it, and that's a truth. Some it's a moral issue. Some it's just they'd rather be the reactor to the proaction.

My response was merely against the notion that is fun FOR ALL, which I take serious issue with. Obviously you wouldn't be doing it for so long if it was dull and you're welcome to advertise it as much as Unibot was, just don't make statements like the OP in the future that need to be challenged.

Dont be a stranger

EDIT: All the quotations went weird

[Savaer]

Yeah, Falc was given an ultimatum to have the FRA remove its spies, publically, from Unknown (which was solely you, although my suspected spy was someone altogether different that was simply a moron in disguise) or PR would be utterly destroyed, but if the spy left, it would be spared. Apparently he considered it for a moment, because he asked if I would be honest to my word.

I'd have been lying if I didn't follow through.

Eh. TIE, I guess I don't remember as well on it's first run through. To be honest, though, it doesn't surprise me if Mason did go for the lock down. XD And I actually wasn't aware ADP had gone to FT. *shrug* Well, I guess we did edge into more areas, and yeah, I do tend to have compulsion issues when it comes to boredom. Like Democratia.

I do wish PR had gotten off the ground, but such is. I'm not so imperialist anymore. Easter Island type incidents though, well... I wouldn't bat a lash at blowing a crater into a region that did what they claimed to New Folsom.

I can see though, why you got annoyed by the specifics of wording, hence mine being a rephrase. I wholly know that some natives don't like it, but I've also had many experiences where the natives actually got into it too. My third raid was a three day sit entirely because we (Gerzam and I) spent the three days shooting the breeze with the natives on ideologies.

PS: Gerzam, GSBC and Damis were all ex-TBoB. Hence my use of 'former TBoB members' regarding Sweden. Aka, myself, Dam, Gerzam, St Mason, and GSBC were the ones that wanted to blow Sweden into ash. XD All others involved probably would never have been able to conceive the reasons for it.

But hey, I still have Lainland's I <3 TITO coffee mug.

[Numero Capitan]

Yeah, Falc was given an ultimatum to have the FRA remove its spies, publically, from Unknown (which was solely you, although my suspected spy was someone altogether different that was simply a moron in disguise) or PR would be utterly destroyed, but if the spy left, it would be spared. Apparently he considered it for a moment, because he asked if I would be honest to my word.

Lol, as I said before, choose your messengers better next time!

At the time there was actually another very senior defender spying on Unknown, they're not any more but there cover was far better than mine (although to be fair I had the disadvantage of still having to use an identity I started as a complete newbie to the spy game and had already left a million clues in my own cluelessness!)

[Siorafrica]

If anyone wants to raid the PIF go ahead. I don't want to be in the WA.

[King HEM]

Then you're also hoping to see defenders fall as well, because they essentially do the same thing as raiders.

Hardly. Fenders at least act with good intentions. Look I won't lie, I use to raid too. And it was fun at the time, but it was because I ignored the whims of natives, I didn't really care. It was about my glory and my region's...But having gone on missions with TITO, having had my old region become founderless and my present one raided, I've become somewhat of a "convert." Regions aren't trophies, they are homes, they are cultures, they are societies constructed and built from the ground up for God knows how long it took. And in a split second they are destroyed, unfairly, immorally and unjustly.

It just isn't right.

Oh God. So you raided until it became politically expedite to not raid. What a great story. Actually, it makes you the posterchild for the doublespeak culture in the entire defender world (though the FRA has mastered their particular brand of hypocrisy the best).

[The Murtunian Tribes]

If anyone wants to raid the PIF go ahead. I don't want to be in the WA.

No.

[The lepearchauns]

I personally think Im the best person to speak for defending. As Numero pointed out earlier, most do it for fun, however, I defend more out of the morality of it. My home has been raided multiple times, and every time it sends us into a tail spin for weeks! Not only is it annoying but eventually there will come a time that we dont bounce back. At that point it will be destructive. I defend so other regions dont have to go through it. If raiders dissapeared forever, I would personally be happy and retire to my quiet island and enjoy the conversation!

Quite personaly I havnt heard a valid argument from the raiders yet. I dont care if you do it for fun or only tag its still a disruption to normal activity in the region and even in its simplest form can do unrepairable harm to the community. It disrupts what others have spent so much time to build and thats wrong

[The Murtunian Tribes]

I personally think Im the best person to speak for defending. As Numero pointed out earlier, most do it for fun, however, I defend more out of the morality of it. My home has been raided multiple times, and every time it sends us into a tail spin for weeks! Not only is it annoying but eventually there will come a time that we dont bounce back. At that point it will be destructive. I defend so other regions dont have to go through it. If raiders dissapeared forever, I would personally be happy and retire to my quiet island and enjoy the conversation!

Quite personaly I havnt heard a valid argument from the raiders yet. I dont care if you do it for fun or only tag its still a disruption to normal activity in the region and even in its simplest form can do unrepairable harm to the community. It disrupts what others have spent so much time to build and thats wrong

No valid argument? I have one:

So?

[Mike the Progressive]

Hardly. Fenders at least act with good intentions. Look I won't lie, I use to raid too. And it was fun at the time, but it was because I ignored the whims of natives, I didn't really care. It was about my glory and my region's...But having gone on missions with TITO, having had my old region become founderless and my present one raided, I've become somewhat of a "convert." Regions aren't trophies, they are homes, they are cultures, they are societies constructed and built from the ground up for God knows how long it took. And in a split second they are destroyed, unfairly, immorally and unjustly.

It just isn't right.

Oh God. So you raided until it became politically expedite to not raid. What a great story. Actually, it makes you the posterchild for the doublespeak culture in the entire defender world (though the FRA has mastered their particular brand of hypocrisy the best).

I raided until I went undercover using this nation to get into TITO and found what they were doing good compared to what raiders have and are doing. It has nothing about political expediency. If I was going for that, I'd have changed positions after LotL.

[Kshrlmnt]

Oh God. So you raided until it became politically expedite to not raid. What a great story. Actually, it makes you the posterchild for the doublespeak culture in the entire defender world (though the FRA has mastered their particular brand of hypocrisy the best).

I raided until I went undercover using this nation to get into TITO and found what they were doing good compared to what raiders have and are doing. It has nothing about political expediency. If I was going for that, I'd have changed positions after LotL.

How do you go undercover using a nation that's founded a region of around 70 nations?

[Free Noldor States]

Not precisely on topic here, but I'd like to point out to an example of raider unity (another reason for you to try raiding) going in the region Pacific. More than a dozen raider have quickly responded to out call for help, and even if we are still behind fendas in endos, it is something to be glad of. If you'd like to take on raiding, a great place to start would be here by endorsing Mother MacClannough in Pacific.

Noldor