The Rejected Realms Embassy

[Unibot III]

The lesson for me from 2015 was don’t focus on the individual reputations of its members, look at the system that they’re a part of. Has NPO changed? It’s still a dictatorship.

The NPO's system of government is exactly what the majority seems to want, though. I'm really confused as to why you think democracy would resolve the issues you have with them, or why you think democracy is the ideal solution for a society that wants nothing to do with democracy.

Your eagerness to impose your own notions about good or bad systems of government is entirely unproductive to the discussion surrounding the rehabilitation of lack thereof of the New Pacific Order.

If NPO’s system of government is what the majority of NPO residents want, why will they not assess this with a free and fair election? How do you know?

And why is the opinion of the majority relevant to whether or not NPO is a democracy but not relevant to the decision regarding who leads NPO?

You can’t say it’s “up to NPO for it not to be up to NPO” — NPO has no say in whether or not it’s up to NPO or not — NPO is not a democracy. That’s the point of a dictatorship. In a dictatorship, the Emperor has the say, not the region.

The NPO's system of government is exactly what the majority seems to want, though. I'm really confused as to why you think democracy would resolve the issues you have with them, or why you think democracy is the ideal solution for a society that wants nothing to do with democracy.

Your eagerness to impose your own notions about good or bad systems of government is entirely unproductive to the discussion surrounding the rehabilitation of lack thereof of the New Pacific Order.

This is not to mention that not all non-democratic regional governments behave the way the NPO does, indicating that the problem is not the system of government, which makes it not much of a leap to assume changing the system of government wouldn't necessarily solve the problem there.

I disagree, I think if you were to take into consideration all of the cases of GCRs threatening or fomenting strife or disruption within other GCRs, and place them on an axis from autocratic to democratic, you would have a clear linear relationship between the governing structure and its behaviour abroad. I think your position in Osiris has handicapped you into not acknowledging rather obvious patterns of behaviour by non-democratic GCRs over the years.

Individualizing the problem here as an NPO problem helps them rehabilitate their image by shifting focus on to the good reputations of some individual members. The problem is not some bad apples, the problem with the NPO is the NPO!

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Not sure someone who in their position as Chief of the Band of the UDL encouraged entryism into Balder, the South Pacific and the North Pacific and that's just three from memory, really has a leg to stand on when talking about organisations behaviour abroad.

[Unibot III]

Not sure someone who in their position as Chief of the Band of the UDL encouraged entryism into Balder, the South Pacific and the North Pacific and that's just three from memory, really has a leg to stand on when talking about organisations behaviour abroad.

You were a member of the UDL Chief of Staff, and would know full well that no UDLer was encouraged to become an “entryist” in a GCR.

The incidents involving the UDL in TSP, TNP, & Balder were trivial:

- We defended against a TSP invasion of a warzone region (prompting a major diplomatic incident)
- We forgot to update the Balder flag on our embassy (prompting an even bigger diplomatic incident)
- A member leaked a NPA forum thread in our officers chat discussing publicly available knowledge
- Some UDLers voted against TNI treaties in TSP and Balder at their own discretion

Our members, including you, were free to be citizens of the regions they were a part of. Comparing the UDL with, say, the NLO seems like a crap comparison.

[Fauxia]

While the "nobody important" from the """mid-sized""" UCR drones on, I will reiterate my original question:

Does anyone from the Rejected Realms or any other Feeder or Sinker that has normalized relations with the NPO really have any rhyme or reason for why this was a good idea? It's a pretty simple question, assuming any real thought has been put into these decisions, and I'm surprised the reaction has been to go to these petty lengths instead of offering a straightforward answer to a straightforward question. Surely you folks do know why you normalized relations with the NPO, right?

No, we don't, we actually care so much about your opinion, we did it entirely so you and Unibot would get pissed off. Well, actually, the Delegate of our region wants it couped, and we are just begging them, "coup us, coup us". Moreover, a hyperlink on the region page and the ability to post on the other region's RMB is well known as the most effective way to coup a region, which is why we are empowering the North Pacific Order to do exactly that. We are ready for the NRRO.

I, for one, welcome our francoist overlords.

[Quebecshire]

This is not to mention that not all non-democratic regional governments behave the way the NPO does, indicating that the problem is not the system of government, which makes it not much of a leap to assume changing the system of government wouldn't necessarily solve the problem there.

Honestly though, I couldn't care less why the NPO is the way it is, I just want to know why the other GCRs keep coming back for more.

But that's not what Unibot is arguing. He is arguing that the lack of democracy is the crux of the issue, which it simply is not.

If NPO’s system of government is what the majority of NPO residents want, why will they not assess this with a free and fair election? How do you know?

And why is the opinion of the majority relevant to whether or not NPO is a democracy but not relevant to the decision regarding who leads NPO?

It's not exceedingly difficult to judge a population's opinion on something, especially the active population. Xoriet has commented several times on this. Your detached and willful ignorance is not a counterargument to the political realities in the NPO, which are anti-democracy and seem to be supportive of current leadership.

Individualizing the problem here as an NPO problem helps them rehabilitate their image by shifting focus on to the good reputations of some individual members. The problem is not some bad apples, the problem with the NPO is the NPO!

Thank you for essentially publishing an admission of what we already knew - that your monolithic fanaticism is not motivated by an accurate understanding of who represents the NPO today, rather a blind and rabid hatred of the NPO as an institution, regardless of what it does or who is representing it.

[Matthew the Man]

Unibot's takes are indescribably terrible, littered with flawed, dogmatic doctrine that was already poor in quality during its heyday, and even worse in quality in the modern day. You'd have to think that an individual who faces such intense push back every time they weigh in on an event with their incessant dogmatic obsession over democracy and their defender ideology would seemingly understand that they are not welcome, yet he returns to yet again hurl another take that will undoability be torn apart by influencers and stooges alike. It would be an admirable trait, to bring together so many individuals across gameplay in solidarity against poor understanding and statements, if not for the fact that Unitbot, regardless of his OOC controversies (to put it lightly), is the epitome of an out of touch armchair player and a relic of an age characterized by a teetering status quo of imbalance between defenders and raiders, who attempts to force feed their mistake-ridden ideologies, viewpoints, and backseat analysis into a new paradigm. A paradigm, I might add, which is almost universally recognized as better due to their absence, thanks to the UDL's collapse and the subsequent rise of the Grey Wardens, an organization who currently acts as a leader within the defender faction, a faction which is almost universally recognized as having dominance over the current era. As a result, I wouldn't take too much stock into the poor words, opinions, and analysis of a player who is so isolated from the "know", that they still relive the glories of the 2010s as opposed to adjusting to the 2020 onward gameplay scene.

[The Moonstar]

Have you considered that there is a credibility difference in opposition from you/Unibot and current TRR citizens and veterans such as CG? Thus leading to there being a difference in approach to disagreement, perhaps?

I don't agree with Crazy girl here, but her opinion seems a bit more nuanced and thought out than "democracy good" from Unibot or your irrelevant detached complaining.

Give it a rest.

Who are you again?

Look, there are a couple things here. The first is that while you're now talking about the difference between Unibot and myself vs. Crazy Girl and other citizens of TRR, the fact is before I highlighted the fact they'd spoken up here, you and several others were dismissing any criticism of this as just Unibot and me complaining. Why? Because it's easy to dismiss us, so why not just reduce the entire thing to the two of us even if that's not the reality of it?

Also, are you actually saying that her literally saying she agreed with me -- that's all she said -- is somehow more nuanced and thought out than what I said?

Maybe you're the one who should give it a rest, don't you think?

Yes it is easy to dismiss y'all. Because I have spoken against y'all. I have the facts, y'all have just bias, hearsay, and assumptions based on past actions. While I don't suggest any reason to forget past actions, there is a massive difference between abundant caution until proven wrong and biased paranoia that literally won't change even if proven wrong.

Afterall I have had front row seat to NPO and y'all have not. Even though I hold no affiliations with the NPO, what y'all have said in the past (barring Unibot's odd defender-democracy nonsense) may have been true it's non existent today. It's fair to be cautious, it's fair to not personally believe faith is good. What's not fair is going far past the point of caution into full blown paranoia and basing all of those doubts on ignorant biases because you don't know any better.

Like really. If we applied that to everything else; you would and Unibot would be ignored past the point that people do now, all raiders would be ignored, and anyone that has commited IC Bad Man actions would be ignored entirely and resisted against by everyone out of paranoia. If you want to do this, apply it to everything else and yourselves.

The funniest thing about this to me, is the NPO is essentially like a oddly themed orderly Video Game Clan now as opposed to a PolSim entity.

I imagine that if the NPO continued on since the reformation for 10 years with zero malevolent or IC Bad Man stuff; you, Unibot, CG, and others for various reasons that don't like the NPO would still be saying the same nonsense as now.

[Unibot III]

While the "nobody important" from the """mid-sized""" UCR drones on, I will reiterate my original question:

Does anyone from the Rejected Realms or any other Feeder or Sinker that has normalized relations with the NPO really have any rhyme or reason for why this was a good idea? It's a pretty simple question, assuming any real thought has been put into these decisions, and I'm surprised the reaction has been to go to these petty lengths instead of offering a straightforward answer to a straightforward question. Surely you folks do know why you normalized relations with the NPO, right?

No, we don't, we actually care so much about your opinion, we did it entirely so you and Unibot would get pissed off. Well, actually, the Delegate of our region wants it couped, and we are just begging them, "coup us, coup us". Moreover, a hyperlink on the region page and the ability to post on the other region's RMB is well known as the most effective way to coup a region, which is why we are empowering the North Pacific Order to do exactly that. We are ready for the NRRO.

I, for one, welcome our francoist overlords.

I never said I didn’t support TRR’s decision?

I think it’s a reasonable move. Opening up embassies reverses a cessation of relations that could be interpreted as needlessly hostile. Having an embassy does not necessarily imply the development of a future treaty or partnership. TRR has had embassies in the past with regions that are cold, indifferent, or even antagonistic with it..

I think Jean Chrétien once said something along the lines of “when you paint yourself in the corner, sometimes the only way out is to run against the paint.”

This discussion was surrounding whether NPO has been rehabilitated, my perspective is that it’s not possible for it to be truly rehabilitated while it’s a dictatorship. I would be concerned too that pursuing, say, a NAP would tie TRR into not supporting a grassroots liberation movement (which was an issue with the original Peace Accords.)

Unibot's takes are indescribably terrible, littered with flawed, dogmatic doctrine that was already poor in quality during its heyday, and even worse in quality in the modern day. You'd have to think that an individual who faces such intense push back every time they weigh in on an event with their incessant dogmatic obsession over democracy and their defender ideology would seemingly understand that they are not welcome, yet he returns to yet again hurl another take that will undoability be torn apart by influencers and stooges alike. It would be an admirable trait, to bring together so many individuals across gameplay in solidarity against poor understanding and statements, if not for the fact that Unitbot, regardless of his OOC controversies (to put it lightly), is the epitome of an out of touch armchair player and a relic of an age characterized by a teetering status quo of imbalance between defenders and raiders, who attempts to force feed their mistake-ridden ideologies, viewpoints, and backseat analysis into a new paradigm. A paradigm, I might add, which is almost universally recognized as better due to their absence, thanks to the UDL's collapse and the subsequent rise of the Grey Wardens, an organization who currently acts as a leader within the defender faction, a faction which is almost universally recognized as having dominance over the current era. As a result, I wouldn't take too much stock into the poor words, opinions, and analysis of a player who is so isolated from the "know", that they still relive the glories of the 2010s as opposed to adjusting to the 2020 onward gameplay scene.

I’m not reliving anything, thanks and “dominance” is a strong word to use for a political-military game that’s mostly dormant.

Not quite sure why me weighing in here in favour of democratic governance has wrought such a passionate response from you — are you against democracies? Or are you just against me?

I can handle the dogpiling, I’m used to it as you’ve pointed out...

The funniest thing about this to me, is the NPO is essentially like a oddly themed orderly Video Game Clan now as opposed to a PolSim entity.

This same claim has been made since like 2014.

[Cormactopia Prime]

This is not to mention that not all non-democratic regional governments behave the way the NPO does, indicating that the problem is not the system of government, which makes it not much of a leap to assume changing the system of government wouldn't necessarily solve the problem there.

Honestly though, I couldn't care less why the NPO is the way it is, I just want to know why the other GCRs keep coming back for more.

But that's not what Unibot is arguing. He is arguing that the lack of democracy is the crux of the issue, which it simply is not.

Yes, thank you for summarizing, but I too can read. I have disagreed with what Unibot is arguing several times now, and was disagreeing with him once again there.

Not directed specifically at Quebecshire but just in general: Are those of you relying on petty character and popularity-based insults even capable at this point of engaging in actual debate? Whether you think this person or that person is relevant or not, only you look bad when you stoop to insulting them for no apparent reason except that you appear to lack the ability to present a counterargument to what they're actually saying. I do believe some of you are in fact capable of reasonable debate, so why on earth would you want to make yourselves look so incapable of it by engaging in petty sniping that is beneath you?

Whether you like it or not, Unibot has a right to post here, no matter how "relevant" you deem him. There's really no point in a chorus of people insisting how irrelevant he is anytime he posts anything. Engage with his arguments or ignore him, but you're just making yourselves look juvenile at this point.

[Quebecshire]

Are those of you relying on petty character and popularity-based insults even capable at this point of engaging in actual debate? Whether you think this person or that person is relevant or not, only you look bad when you stoop to insulting them for no apparent reason except that you appear to lack the ability to present a counterargument to what they're actually saying. I do believe some of you are in fact capable of reasonable debate, so why on earth would you want to make yourselves look so incapable of it by engaging in petty sniping that is beneath you?

This is rich considering you pulled the "who are you" on me earlier today. Not that it bothers me, but just finding amusement in the irony.

Edit: I'm done replying here though unless it actually gets back to TRR-related stuff because this has nothing to do with TRR anymore.

[Kyorgia]

Not directed specifically at Quebecshire but just in general: Are those of you relying on petty character and popularity-based insults even capable at this point of engaging in actual debate? Whether you think this person or that person is relevant or not, only you look bad when you stoop to insulting them for no apparent reason except that you appear to lack the ability to present a counterargument to what they're actually saying. I do believe some of you are in fact capable of reasonable debate, so why on earth would you want to make yourselves look so incapable of it by engaging in petty sniping that is beneath you?

Funny coming from one the biggest users of character assassination in the game. Go back to the retirement home, cormac

[Custadia]

Unibot relates everything to some imagined battle between democracy and meritocracy. He does this because he is out of touch and doesn't realise that perspective is now half a decade out of date.
Stop engaging with his clumsy attempts at debate and consider the real questions Cormac raised.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Everyone should print their receipts and meet again here in a year. By then we'll probably have a good sense of who was right and who was dumb.

[The Moonstar]

Everyone should print their receipts and meet again here in a year. By then we'll probably have a good sense of who was right and who was dumb.

Ikr.

I highly doubt I am wrong, so I will stick with that. Unlike some of the people that are talking the opposite, they can't see the other side because they are not welcome there or never got involved there the time right before and any time after 2018. I respect CG's own criticism because she is in TRR and it's only right if she is cautious or against to speak up (whether or not she's wrong).

But we have people not involved in either places, spouting crap like it's 100% the true case now. In I was in their shoes, I would have just kept it at:

"I think this is a bad move, I don't trust the NPO is reformed. If I'm right I'll tell I told you so when it's proven that I am right. If I'm wrong, well I was ignorant and beyond biased, my bad."

You have more people now that are openly ok with or think the NPO has moved in the right direction than 2-3 years ago. You have more regions reestablishing relations that were ended since. While that itself doesn't prove anything in either parties favour for their arguments, it does show that spewing nonsense at every turn isn't going to do anything but try to stir up drama llamas. If some people and regions want nothing to do with NPO, fine. Others do, or at least be mutually neutral and nothing more. Cormac and Unibot cannot turn a tide here. It's a dead horse.

While I'm pretty sure they're going to eat their own words in the future, at least if they are right in say 3-5 years from now, it's much more unlikely for anyone to want to deal with the NPO then.

Also what's with the moral crusades against IC Dastardly Ebil people? Is being dastardly nearly akin to an OOC gameplay crime now? If say TRR had wanted to PNG the NPO because they believed it to be a threat, I don't agree, but it's fine. That's not the same as making a moral crusade though. We've seen this kinda talk against Raiders for many many years. "They raid and that's a bad thing. They've done it over and over again in the past and they're gonna do it again". But where's all the PNGs against all raiders? Aside from maybe XKI (correct me if wrong), only PNGs are for TBH in a region or two and Hydra Command (Probably count The Invaders, I guesst).

Now inb4 someone goes on about how raiders raid so they obviously are gonna keep doing that, Francoism is essentially gone so the NPO doesn't have anything of a mandate to do something like that over and over again now. Outside of a future successor (as Xoriet mentioned) reinstating Francoism or similar stuff all that shit is long gone. But that's just grasping at straws if that's an argument used against the NPO here.

Ranting over. Anyways, I hope TRR is proven their caution is wrong and the decision to not be hostile or nonexistent towards one another is the right choice.

[Unibot III]

Everyone should print their receipts and meet again here in a year. By then we'll probably have a good sense of who was right and who was dumb.

Nothing has ever stopped me before from being both right & dumb. With the glacial pace of today’s NSGP, it’ll take them 3.5 years to get anything accomplished though, malicious or otherwise.

Unibot relates everything to some imagined battle between democracy and meritocracy. He does this because he is out of touch and doesn't realise that perspective is now half a decade out of date.
Stop engaging with his clumsy attempts at debate and consider the real questions Cormac raised.

Why did you engage with my clumsy attempts at debate and then tell everyone not to do that.

More clumsiness:

The decline in actual political simulation in NSGP really has helped to undermine the practice of liberal democracy in NationStates. But there are working democracies still out there in NS.

It’s hard to run a democracy or feel invested in it, when your players don’t believe in the importance of rights, or laws, or process.

I don’t believe in a division between democracies and meritocracies, since I don’t believe in meritocracies at all — OOC or IC. I think the concept of meritocracy is part propaganda, part narcissism. I do not consider it a form of government — it’s branding.

Broadly I’ve asserted here that major democratic regions have better track records than their autocratic counterparts with regards to belligerency and respecting regional sovereignty. NPO predates Francoism, it predates Feux or AMOM, it predates CN — NPO was screwing around in other (democratic) GCRs before any of these factors. The central reason why NPO is a pseudo-aggressor towards so many (again, democratic) GCRs is because it’s an occupation started by occupiers, run as an occupation, in the spirit of an occupation. If you’re not talking about democracy, you’re missing the big picture as to why NPO is the way it is and has always been.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Everyone should print their receipts and meet again here in a year. By then we'll probably have a good sense of who was right and who was dumb.

I don't think you're really wrong here. There's no point in debating whether or under what circumstances the NPO is capable of reform, though I don't think they are, but who ends up being right and wrong will be proven over time. Almost certainly longer than a year though, as Unibot noted. Can anyone still accomplish anything of significance in gameplay within a year's time? Or at all, really, given the state of stagnation -- but that's an entirely separate discussion.

Of course, for some unlucky Feeder or Sinker, there would be real stakes for being wrong. When one is proven wrong in trusting the NPO, it's because they've perpetrated a coup against some Feeder or Sinker. That said, every coup attempt they've ever made in my time here has been woefully inept, so hopefully if (when, really) they do go back to their old tricks that trend will continue and they'll be too incompetent to leave any lasting damage, as per usual with their coups. The real question is, if it happens, why the Rejected Realms or any other Feeder or Sinker would want to have an embassy with them again when it goes down. Which brings me back to my original point, which I think I'll restate just once more and if there is still no answer I'll let this go and assume it's because this was poorly thought through and there is no rational answer besides that Elegarth and Xoriet are both very popular and very persuasive (like past NPO officials, who were lying).

So, again:

I'm honestly just out here waiting to see if anyone can answer the why question. It's a fairly simple and straightforward question, and really has nothing to do with the debate over whether the NPO is capable of reform. Whether they are or aren't, what is lost by not having relations with them, and what is gained by having them, in light of their history? I don't think that's an unfair question given the Delegate and Foreign Officer of the Rejected Realms declared "it's time." I'm just asking why it's time. It's a relevant question not only for the Rejected Realms, but also the other Feeders and Sinkers that have made the same determination.

Go back to the retirement home, cormac

Hate to burst your bubble, but think I'll stick around for a bit. It's almost like people who loathe me telling me what to do might have an opposite effect.

[Unibot III]

I'm honestly just out here waiting to see if anyone can answer the why question. It's a fairly simple and straightforward question, and really has nothing to do with the debate over whether the NPO is capable of reform. Whether they are or aren't, what is lost by not having relations with them, and what is gained by having them, in light of their history? I don't think that's an unfair question given the Delegate and Foreign Officer of the Rejected Realms declared "it's time." I'm just asking why it's time. It's a relevant question not only for the Rejected Realms, but also the other Feeders and Sinkers that have made the same determination.

Obviously I don’t speak for TRR. The statement could have been worded more neutrally, but one reason for reopening embassies would be to not unintentionally communicate an unnecessary state of hostility with the NPO by keeping embassies closed.

TRR has many embassies with regions that it has no intention of building a diplomatic or cultural relationship with.

The official TWP-TRR diplomatic relationship, for instance, has been pretty much always non-existent, cold, or totally indifferent. The shared embassy, however, has allowed for a lively social exchange between TWP and TRR residents on their RMBs that has existed for years without much in the way of an official diplomatic initiative — transcending the significant differences between these two regions.

I suspect that interplay has helped TRR avoid an actual state of hostility or passive/active belligerency with TWP (which some other democratic GCRs have not so deftly avoided.)

Sometimes we shouldn’t equate governments with their people. I don’t think TRR has much in common whatsoever with the NPO, but I think many residents of The Pacific (who rejects would be interacting with on their RMBs) have lots in common with rejects. For the first time in years, rejects (including refugees of the August Revolution, like Crazygirl) will now be able to speak directly to residents of the Pacific again on their community board.

[Istarich]

// Libertanny here, didn't realize I was logged in on wrong account //

To Cormac:

Who are you again?

You seem to be trying to make strong Gameplay opinions in here, yet, you ask an ignorant question (the above) to Quebec. Tell me please, how does one create their GP opinions, if they aren't up to date with GP and seem to be ignorant enough not to know more known personas in GP? Opinions based on emotions are irrelevant.

Maybe you're the one who should give it a rest, don't you think?

"Someone disagreed with me and they might be right, let's try to have them leave this room" - is that it, but in other words?

Does anyone from the Rejected Realms or any other Feeder or Sinker that has normalized relations with the NPO really have any rhyme or reason for why this was a good idea? It's a pretty simple question, assuming any real thought has been put into these decisions, and I'm surprised the reaction has been to go to these petty lengths instead of offering a straightforward answer to a straightforward question. Surely you folks do know why you normalized relations with the NPO, right?

Oi. Maybe we never needed to normalize relations with New Pacific Order, but does former Delegate of a Feeder meets your expectations?

We never needed to normalize relations with New Pacific Order, because they were always there for us and we were always there for them. Unlike Osiris, which I heard you are a huge fan of, New Pacific Order isn't a waving flag and does not create relations with other regions, just to try to poison them. Unlike Osiris, New Pacific Order didn't pretend, that they weren't told about the Consortium and didn't use it as reason to repeal treaty with us. And unline The West Pacific, they do not mock allies, bully their officials nor commit espionage on treated allies. When Fedele & Co couped The East Pacific, NPO was one of the first ones to reply. And that's not all, New Pacific Order has showed support for The East Pacific in various ways, when I was the Delegate (yet, hopefully you will understand confidential nature of it and therefore the reason, why I can't tell you about it). In my whole career as second-in-command of The East Pacific (twice), Minister of Foreign Affairs and Delegate, I have only seen the positive side of New Pacific Order. So again, we never needed to normalize relations with New Pacific Order, because they were always one of the closest allies we have ever had.

Also, if you don't mind me asking.

You probably heard the story of Pharaoh Tim, who has couped Osiris. Then there was that, what was he called? Yes. Pharaoh Cormactopia Prime, who then led illegitimate government of Osiris, which rules Osiris until today.

Tell me please. Why do you feel superior enough to draw some moral opinions on New Pacific Order? How does one like you have enough self-confidence and narcissism to pretend to be a moral guide here?

This is not to mention that not all non-democratic regional governments behave the way the NPO does, indicating that the problem is not the system of government, which makes it not much of a leap to assume changing the system of government wouldn't necessarily solve the problem there.

For once, I agree with you. Not all non-democratic governments behaves like New Pacific Order does. In my very experience, they all (at least in terms of GCRs) are much worse. Espionage, mocking, bullying, fakeness, lies, turning their backs on allies - that's all the virtues of other non-democratic GCR governments (such as your beloved Osiris), that I had pleasure to experience. And I agree, that it might not be the systems of governments, but players with ill intentions, that control those.

Are those of you relying on petty character and popularity-based insults even capable at this point of engaging in actual debate? Whether you think this person or that person is relevant or not, only you look bad when you stoop to insulting them for no apparent reason except that you appear to lack the ability to present a counterargument to what they're actually saying.

Hey, may I quote your first words in this reply?

I will, regardless.
"Who are you again?"
"Maybe you're the one who should give it a rest, don't you think?"

I'll leave this one without further comments. Let the readers make their own opinions.

[Catalyse]

I'm the ghost writer for everyone posting in this thread and take sole credit for everything posted within. Thank you.

[Drop Your Pants]

I'm the ghost writer for everyone posting in this thread and take sole credit for everything posted within. Thank you.

Ye gods its all your fault.

[Catalyse]

I'm the ghost writer for everyone posting in this thread and take sole credit for everything posted within. Thank you.

Ye gods its all your fault.

I was the ghost writer for this too.

[Cormactopia Prime]

How does one like you have enough self-confidence and narcissism to pretend to be a moral guide here?

I'm a Gryffindor primary and Slytherin secondary.

<stuff about Quebecshire, irrelevant stuff about The East Pacific, and more irrelevant stuff about Osiris>

You do realize the NPO's relatively benign treatment of The East Pacific doesn't negate the wrongs the NPO has committed against other regions, correct?

I have no intention of derailing this thread with irrelevant discussion of Osiris. I'm not even a resident of Osiris anymore. If you have a gripe with Osiris over whatever it is you're even talking about, I suggest you take it up with Osiris in the appropriate thread or whatever off-site venue you'd prefer. I also have zero interest in indulging your petty back and forth over what Quebecshire and I said to each other. I'm confident Quebecshire can speak for himself, he's done fairly well so far.

While I'm sure you and the NPO's other cheerleaders would love to change the subject to anything but the NPO, I am solely interested in the Rejected Realms' announcement that they are normalizing relations with the NPO and the basis for that decision. Input from other Feeders and Sinkers that have normalized relations with the NPO -- which, as you've noted, does not include The East Pacific -- would also be great since I'd imagine the rationale, if there is one, might be somewhat similar. Otherwise, I have no interest in helping you out with these deflection attempts because I'm just not remotely interested in anything else you're saying.

[Elegarth]

Uni,

On defense of the Peace Accords: I really looked forward to them. I really went into them with a full heart and desire to correct the mistakes of the past. I really want them to WORK. However, I also didn't had full control of the other players in the Senate then and sadly, I was in the minority who was against what happened later. I've always been very open about this. I was overruled.

You can believe it or not, I honestly don't care about what you want or don't want to believe. But I really WANTED TRR and NPO to become friendly when we created the accords. Well, when you created them and I worked my ass in the Senate to get the internal support they needed. But, alas, things happened the way they happened and I can't do much about it, as I am not a time traveler.

Shit happens.

[Roavin]

Does anyone from the Rejected Realms or any other Feeder or Sinker that has normalized relations with the NPO really have any rhyme or reason for why this was a good idea? It's a pretty simple question, assuming any real thought has been put into these decisions, and I'm surprised the reaction has been to go to these petty lengths instead of offering a straightforward answer to a straightforward question. Surely you folks do know why you normalized relations with the NPO, right?

I'm the current Minister of Foreign Affairs, former and longest serving Prime Minister, and long-time member of a Feeder (the South Pacific), so I speak with some amount of authority on the matter and want to give you a straightforward answer.

To put it simply, we observed what the New Pacific Order was doing and deemed it sufficient. In contrast to the post-NLO reparations, the post-TFL reparations did effectively exclude (in one way or another) anyone with a remaining vendetta regarding Lazarus or with any nominal involvement beyond serving in a non-commanding role. Pergamon's canary trap involving us that we weren't informed of was explained and apologized for. And generally, the new leadership is one with a significant amount of existing credibility; Xoriet and Elegarth are self-explanatory, but notable is also the new Emperor East Durthang/Lord of Darkness, whose manifested persona originated in another realm where it has been a long-time vocal opponent of these same kinds of things that the New Pacific Order was criticized for in late 2018. In addition to the above, we recognize a non-negligible amount of overlap in terms of our mutual foreign policy interests, as well as the compatibility between our communities in shared interactions. With all of that in mind, we deemed reestablishing relations with the New Pacific Order to be sensible and beneficial.

It's certainly understandable that there is hesitation among some individuals about taking such a step. We all witnessed the existence of such hesitant individuals within the membership of our good ally The Rejected Realms right here in this thread, and I can report that such was also present within our very own membership when we took this step. That such hesitation is openly and freely expressed is a feature of healthy democracies such as theirs and ours. Nonetheless, despite those concerns being aired, Pax Capricorn, a pact between the Coalition of the South Pacific and the New Pacific Order, was passed last year and renewed only a few weeks ago, in each case with overwhelming support from South Pacificans.

I hope I was able to sufficiently answer your question.

[Istarich]

I just realized, thanks to Cormac, that we can just call things irrelevant and ignore them.

Therefore, I call everything Cormac said irrelevant. Thank you for the debate, I have won.