[NSNS] The Proletariat Coalition poetically invaded

[Evil Wolf]

Heck. Even the fendas don't like Krulls regime

A defender opposed to a successor of Francos Spain? Shocking. *yawns*

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Sweeping statements like those typically come from people who don't know NS History all too well. PERHAPS he'd make the top 5, but I'm not so sure, to be honest. I've personally always been deeply impressed with what Architeuthis managed to do. And annoyed, since he was close to unbeatable, even against vastly superior numbers. And don't overlook the accomplishments of the old guard of the Atlantic Central Command. If Halcones wants to be comparable to them, he'd have to at least successfully invade a feeder. And for that I'll overlook the fact that today's feeder regions are paltry in comparison to the massive regions they used to be.

Ballotonia

He's right, this time. Ballotonia, that is.

I personally am not interested in raiding such large regions. It does not fit my "plan". My main focus is causing fendas as much anguish as possible, like I did with my update raiding malarkey. Now back to the drawing board....

i just gotta say, I don't approve.

[Commander Halcones]

And why not?

What is important in raiding for you?

[Drop Your Pants]

Logging on to see your nation in TRR should be top of ever raiders list

[Evil Wolf]

If raiders end up in The Rejected Realms so often, why is it that Defenders claim to rule it?

[94 block]

thats an interesting point that i'd like uni to answer

[Jeux II]

Why Unibot? Sedge the man incharge.

[Tahar Joblis]

Oh posh, invading a feeder isn't hard, I've done it several times with success in The West Pacific to overthrow Eli, The East Pacific as part of the group that established the short lived Empire, and Lazarus for giggles. Its all in the timing, the delegate holding power, and the target selection.

Its not the size of the target that counts, its the skill which it requires to take the region. My proudest raid, for example, wasn't on a feeder, it was on Global Right Alliance. A passworded defender region, crawling with enemy and all but locked to any outsider and I managed to trick and deceive my way in and take the region under the FRA's nose. Now that was a good raid.

By that standard, TPC, as an aging and mostly inactive region, really wouldn't be a very impressive raid.

Yet this thread has nearly two hundred posts in it so far. This raid may not have been more difficult technically in terms of getting the delegacy, but I bet it's already attracted more attention than your raid on GRA has. I had trouble even digging up anything more than a cursory mention of it.

[Evil Wolf]

An aging "mostly inactive" pro-defender region that had never been successfully raided ever in the history of Nationstates until now. Don't fool yourself, the invasion of TPC was a great accomplishment and only serves to prove my point that the size of the region isn't always what makes a raid impressive.

[Tahar Joblis]

An aging "mostly inactive" pro-defender region that had never been successfully raided ever in the history of Nationstates until now. Don't fool yourself, the invasion of TPC was a great accomplishment and only serves to prove my point that the size of the region isn't always what makes a raid impressive.

But that's not skill you're talking about. What's significant is that TPC is a very old region with a long and storied history. We used to bill ourselves as the largest socialist region on NationStates (which tended on examination to involve some argument over what made a region socialist, but which was for some time more or less accurate).

Some invaders blame TPC for what they see as excesses by RLA (a defensive alliance of a dozen or so socialist regions), not seeming to comprehend that one reason why RLA was so quick and loud in disclaiming the DEN forum destruction was backlash from rank and file members, in TPC and elsewhere, and not seeming to comprehend (as your comments indicate) that invader and defender groups engaged in such activities fairly often, even years after the RLA had decayed into inactivity.

To people who aren't those invaders, the crowing of invaders like yourself rings hollow, and it sounds like flimsy justification. Regardless of Unknown's actual motivations in choosing to raid TPC (my impression was "Well, we can invade TPC, so let's do it!" was the motive), the justifications that you and some other invaders have chosen to dress up the invasion with are, on examination, pretty flimsy.

The only thing that makes this so special is that it's taken this long for you to work up the nerve to taunt Eurosoviets (who is, of course, not a member of TPC and never has been) and you're jealous you didn't have the idea in the first place. Because invading is much like trolling. It's not the skill of execution that matters; it's the public reaction and interwub-based [NS] fame that results from the action which makes it "great."

[Evil Wolf]

[...} not seeming to comprehend that one reason why RLA was so quick and loud in disclaiming the DEN forum destruction was backlash from rank and file members[...]

The RLA never distanced themselves from their destruction of the DEN forums or home region, they wore it as a badge of honor and Eurosoviets as well as Blackbird liked to brag about it loudly and often, same goes for the Blackhawks forum griefing, although they felt it was a smaller victory since TBH wasn't as well known as DEN at the time.

It was only the Invaders Forum destruction they ever tried to pin on a "rogue member" and only after leadership from the ADN started going after them publically. The rest of their attacks their former membership still boasts about completely unrepentantly.

[Free Noldor States]

[...} not seeming to comprehend that one reason why RLA was so quick and loud in disclaiming the DEN forum destruction was backlash from rank and file members[...]

The RLA never distanced themselves from their destruction of the DEN forums or home region, they wore it as a badge of honor and Eurosoviets as well as Blackbird liked to brag about it loudly and often, same goes for the Blackhawks forum griefing, although they felt it was a smaller victory since TBH wasn't as well known as DEN at the time.

It was only the Invaders Forum destruction they ever tried to pin on a "rogue member" and only after leadership from the ADN started going after them publically. The rest of their attacks their former membership still boasts about completely unrepentantly.

I'll vouch for that. The RLA never showed any type of regret or even discomfort after the DEN's forum destruction. Like EW says, they were pretty proud about it.

[New Sark]

An aging "mostly inactive" pro-defender region that had never been successfully raided ever in the history of Nationstates until now. Don't fool yourself, the invasion of TPC was a great accomplishment and only serves to prove my point that the size of the region isn't always what makes a raid impressive.

But that's not skill you're talking about. What's significant is that TPC is a very old region with a long and storied history. We used to bill ourselves as the largest socialist region on NationStates (which tended on examination to involve some argument over what made a region socialist, but which was for some time more or less accurate).

Some invaders blame TPC for what they see as excesses by RLA (a defensive alliance of a dozen or so socialist regions), not seeming to comprehend that one reason why RLA was so quick and loud in disclaiming the DEN forum destruction was backlash from rank and file members, in TPC and elsewhere, and not seeming to comprehend (as your comments indicate) that invader and defender groups engaged in such activities fairly often, even years after the RLA had decayed into inactivity.

To people who aren't those invaders, the crowing of invaders like yourself rings hollow, and it sounds like flimsy justification. Regardless of Unknown's actual motivations in choosing to raid TPC (my impression was "Well, we can invade TPC, so let's do it!" was the motive), the justifications that you and some other invaders have chosen to dress up the invasion with are, on examination, pretty flimsy.

The only thing that makes this so special is that it's taken this long for you to work up the nerve to taunt Eurosoviets (who is, of course, not a member of TPC and never has been) and you're jealous you didn't have the idea in the first place. Because invading is much like trolling. It's not the skill of execution that matters; it's the public reaction and interwub-based [NS] fame that results from the action which makes it "great."

Okay mr. "i'm better then you because im a defender" you're right. I'm glad we have an armchair-psychologist on hand to dictate who we are. Resorting to personal attacks on us because of differing ideology's. You're pathetic.

[Of crazed]

The RLA never distanced themselves from their destruction of the DEN forums or home region, they wore it as a badge of honor and Eurosoviets as well as Blackbird liked to brag about it loudly and often, same goes for the Blackhawks forum griefing, although they felt it was a smaller victory since TBH wasn't as well known as DEN at the time.

It was only the Invaders Forum destruction they ever tried to pin on a "rogue member" and only after leadership from the ADN started going after them publically. The rest of their attacks their former membership still boasts about completely unrepentantly.

I'll vouch for that. The RLA never showed any type of regret or even discomfort after the DEN's forum destruction. Like EW says, they were pretty proud about it.

It really doesn't even need vouching, its all over the old RLA press releases. They mocked the ADN for not taking the fight to raiders hard enough.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

And why not?

What is important in raiding for you?

If I could do whatever I wanted, then I would have the entire NS world subjugated to the rule of an empire that I built or helped build. I find the idea of spending all my time trying to come up with new ways to piss on Unibot's boots unappealing (the irony of course being this is in reality what I spend most of the time doing). Of course, this is not possible and is borderline insane, but there you go. It's also less fun to try and do things like that nowadays given the lack of sophisticated gameplay nowadays. Honestly, the term "raider" to me is just a nominal title; it doesn't much interest me anymore. I don't like seeing the roles of military gameplay as black & white propositions in which you can be on one side or another. It cheapens the game and makes for a very uninteresting, endless, and totally pointless war.

[Tahar Joblis]

I'll vouch for that. The RLA never showed any type of regret or even discomfort after the DEN's forum destruction. Like EW says, they were pretty proud about it.

The RLA never distanced themselves from their destruction of the DEN forums or home region

The fact that you can say that in this thread, after having been repeatedly provided archived evidence to the contrary, e.g., this pronouncement:

The Executive Council and Command Staff of the Red Liberty Alliance hereby condemn the actions taken in regards to the destruction of the Invaders Boards. We consider these actions to be the work of individuals and not reflective of the RLA as a whole. The Executive Committee and Command Staff of the RLA had no prior knowledge that agents of the RLAI would be carrying out this attack; nor did they possess any knowledge as to the details surrounding the attack until after it was over.

The EC and Command Staff also commit to conduct a complete and thorough investigation of the attack, the results of which will be made public. As part of the investigative process, we recommend an outside observer will take part in the investigation. Lanier, of the West Pacific, has agreed to act as this observer. He would examine the same evidence as the investigators and issue his own impartial report on the facts. At the conclusion of this investigation, the investigative panel will issue a recommendation on how to act on the findings which will then be submitted to the Central Soviet for consideration.

In the mean time, we urge everyone to be calm and wait for the facts to come about before issuing any judgements of their own.

...indicates that you are either unwilling or unable to engage with the facts at hand, and simply reiterating and reinforcing what is little more and little less than a highly biased slant on NS history. I've discussed this stuff in detail and at length, which you have chosen to avoid materially engaging with. If you want to present an actual case to dispute what I've laid out - and I'm afraid you may have to actually read, and read carefully, what I have said in order to do so competently - I welcome it.

Okay mr. "i'm better then you because im a defender"

I'm not. Get your facts straight.

I am a long-time TPC resident; yes. A long-time forum presence; yes. A moderator from 2003-2007; yes. A deadly NSG debater? Always.

An active participant in invading and defending? Nope. This recent episode is the first time I've ever had contact with invading / defending actions, and we can't precisely call that voluntary - I didn't decide to have my region invaded. I have never left the UN / WA with my main nation. I have never sent puppets to infiltrate another region. I have never impersonated another person on NS. I have, in a word, had absolutely nothing to do with this part of the game. Even as a moderator, I didn't have anything to do with it - I strictly handled forum issues, which was my area of interest.

you're right. I'm glad we have an armchair-psychologist on hand to dictate who we are. Resorting to personal attacks on us because of differing ideology's. You're pathetic.

In case you haven't noticed, I haven't been calling you names.

I have, however, been calling y'all on what I see as bullshit, such as the idea that the RLA was anything special in the defender/invasion world (aside from ideological and competent; plenty of groups have engaged similar tactics when available), or that the membership base of the RLA knew of or approved of acts of forum destruction (as has been illustrated, there was a largely negative reaction)... and Evil Wolf has not even demonstrated to my satisfaction even his simple claim that Blackbird had advance notice, or approved of, the DEN forum destruction operation.

Your ad hominem attacks are duly registered, but it is beneath me to take further notice beyond the point of noting that they illustrate so very clearly the classic psychological phenomenon of projection.

Goobergunchia, in fact, quoted this particular piece of a public report from the RLA:

On that same day, The Red Factions contacted his superior, Director of Red Liberty Alliance Intelligence, Blackbird, and said the same thing in an IM, while Blackbird’s away message was up. Upon returning, Blackbird was surprised and angrily demanded an explanation. Blackbird responded, in an explicit order, that the “RLAI isn’t destroying any forums” and the Red Factions responded “Can’t stop it” and refused to tell who is doing this. This led to a long argument over who was in control and certainl legal issues between them, ending with the Red Factions leaving the chat, and Blackbird leaving many unanswered messages amounting to a lecture on the chain of command and a reiteration of the previous order.

On December 2, the forums were destroyed. The Red Factions contacted Blackbird, who explained that one of the invaders admins had done the deed, and would most likely be crying “Hacker” in order to cover himself up. An article was written by Ketoprofen, another RLA Intelligence agent, also in the service of North Pacific (not the) that was published, with Blackbird’s name on it. Blackbird has said he did not adequately read the article, and that what he read matched the story that had been given: that an invader would be claiming hacking, which the RLA would not refute, so as to provide the “defecting” invader with cover.

Blackbird immediately began detecting something was amiss and began a personal investigation of the incident, contacting both the Red Factions and Ketoprofen.

Goobergunchia also quoted something Evil Wolf himself said:

UGG! This is so damn annoying! Since when did the invader community become so politically correct? Hell I know if I were in the position in which I could pump ANY fenda forum for info and then destroy it, honestly, I wouldn’t think twice about it. Yes, destroying forums is wrong, yes, its also semi-immoral, but really, we are talking a game and in a game you would do anything to get the edge for your side.

TRF (and I do hate to say it, I really do) was just doing what he thought best for his side and now he's getting shelled for it, so much for unity in the face of a foe eh? And Invaders really shouldnt be moaning so loudly, you got beat, plain and simple, now rebuild and get on with it cause I am sick and tired of hearing about this every time I log onto NationStates!

Now, why am I not even convinced when Evil Wolf insists that Blackbird was actually behind destroying the DEN forums? That's not such a strange idea. Blackbird was heavily involved with the invading/defending game, an avid defender, and one of the assorted leaders of RLA. It's not unusual, according to what I've already said, that such a fellow might be one of those who thought it was a swell idea.

But even Evil Wolf has said that Blackbird has denied involvement publicly; and the evidence I have then amounts to hearsay out of the mouths of an invader who, after being pointed directly at a public pronouncement by the RLA dated shortly after the incident in question, has still denied that the RLA ever made any effort to publicly distance themselves from the attack. That, in a word, has proven himself, not merely biased, as he's managed to deny a clear public reality.

I have, of course, absolutely no question that Eurosoviets approves of destroying invader forums, then and now. He has made that quite clear. Of course, you may have noticed the lack of a nation called "Eurosoviets" in TPC...

[Sedgistan]

I've just removed a post by New Sark, in which he quoted Tahar Joblis' previous post in its entirety, without further comment.

Please, if you're going to post here, debate the topic. That means you actually say something, and make it relevant.

[Tahar Joblis]

We, the undersigned among the residents of the Proletariat Coalition, express our continuing and unending displeasure with any and all acts of community disruption, including but not limited to the deletion of forums. We are aware of and sorrow for the deletion of the Black Hawks, DEN, and Invaders Army forums by agents of the RLAI, the intelligence wing of the Red Liberty Alliance, which the Proletariat Coalition was a member of during its period of activity.

There are those among us who were silent then and did not, because of ignorance or apathy, distance ourselves from those actions before; we do so now. There are those among us who have previously condemned forum destruction over the years reiterate our principled stand for others to duly note. We understand that some place no credibility in our past condemnations; this too, we understand, for actions speak loudly, but iterate that we have only post facto condemnation and apology to offer, and that the past cannot be undone.

We stand as we always stand; for democracy, liberty, and equality; and as an extension of these lofty principles, for the freedom of NS nations to associate and communicate with one another in the communities of their choosing.

We invite those currently occupying our quiet socialist corner of NationStates to join us in the left and to help build, rather than disrupt, communities for political dialogue; for understanding why it is not right to cause deliberate and unnecessary suffering, e.g., via destroying forums for community discussion, is a but a short step from understanding why equitable distribution of wealth and adequate social support are important goals for any moral society.

Signed,
The Rogue State of Tahar Joblis
The Quiet Desperation of Wallcreeper
The Polity of Star City*
The Hallowed Trees of Terraliberty
The Kingdom of Infernialis
The Perpetually Confused State of Whatia
The United Socialist States of Blackbird*

*Former delegate

[Kshrlmnt]

There are few crimes in Nationstates worse than forum destruction, and few more valid reasons for revenge.

But tempting as revenge can be—or as deserved, or just—it is essential to remember that people and regions change over time. What was once condoned—or at least left largely unchallenged—will not always remain so.

Such is the case of The Proletariat Coalition. In my ten months in the region, not once did I see any approval or encouragement of forum destruction. Not only that, they have shown themselves willing to make peace over the issue. Here I see a region that has changed; a region worthy of forgiveness for the crimes of the distant past.

And so, my brothers and sisters in DEN, The Black Hawks, and Lone Wolves United, I urge you to give this region your forgiveness—for us to forgive as we would be forgiven.

Ladies and gentlemen, we took a region that couldn’t be taken and held it against everything defenders could throw at us. Now we’ve found a chance for honorable peace. Let us take it; it’s time for us to go.

Elindra Kshrlmnt Dion Diablessa
Regent and Warlord of Unknown
Lady of Loquacity
The Heartless Doxy of Eldorado Poe

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Wow...umm...yay for peace? I guess?

[Drop Your Pants]

How many raiders will ignore this i wonder

[94 block]

i think TPC will always be a target after this for sure.

[Evil Wolf]

The Proletariat Coalition's "apology" is missing the only signature I care about, the signature of the former Head of RLA Intelligence.

[Drop Your Pants]

Its quite an achievement to get an apology at all, you always want more though

[Tim-Opolis]

Heck. Even the fendas don't like Krulls regime

A defender opposed to a successor of Francos Spain? Shocking. *yawns*

I'm not opposed to Krull. He's a fun guy. And Francos Spain was also a fun guy.

I just don't like the fact that hes figured out how to control a feeder