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NS History: You've Got Questions, We've Got Answers!

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6542
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:58 pm

Sail Nation wrote:Very interesting information there. I've never seen that technique for liberations, particularly as liberations were meant to be a counter to raiding, as raiders have the advantage of the element of surprise, as well as the ease of holding onto a region long enough to password-protect it, due to the difficulty of liberations. But does this mean that they couldn't hold on to 'trophy' regions if the liberation passed - were they ok with that?

Also these campaigns as well as the recruitment cost must have been very expensive. I'm surprised that for a semi-active, now inactive region, would want to pay that much. Big investment nowadays considering their inactivity. Is it really just to hamper regions like TBH (as well as many other, non-raider regions that might have persuaded nations to move to and possibly even become actively involved)?


TI expected they'd be SC liberated either way - it was an era when doing so was particularly in vogue. It was assumed they'd try to refound eventually, so an SC liberation was a given. By doing it *themselves* instead of letting fendas do it, they got to make it a PR stunt, and if it failed to pass the SC, also delegitimize/damage the odds of any future good-faith SC liberation passing.

The WA campaigns are actually pretty damn cheap. TG'ing all delegates is always only $1 or $2. Their recruits-per-dollar of this methd was quite good. No need to TG the whole WA when you just want it to get to vote, not necessarily pass.

The recruitment, though, yes. Gest has a massive hate boner, pardon my french, for the other raiding orgs trying to clean up Gameplay from nasty elements, as well as a particularly gainful career, and was happy to fight with huge piles of cash. As I said, by best estimates, probably more than $1000 a year in stamps collectively bought or gifted, at the peak. To TI, as well as to 1-3 other regions depending on the month. Anyone except TBH :P
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

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How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Baedan
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Posts: 94
Founded: Jan 02, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Baedan » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:53 pm

What was the conflict between Topid(?) and the NPO(?) over St Abbaddon(?)
baedan 1: the journal of queer nihilism

purist raiderist
aurrelius, TBH, lily, obootsma 69

"more like Basedan" - some defender idk

formerly soppy

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Arkadia Universalis
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 22
Founded: Oct 16, 2017
Father Knows Best State

Postby Arkadia Universalis » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:28 pm

Baedan wrote:What was the conflict between Topid(?) and the NPO(?) over St Abbaddon(?)


Wow, something in this thread that I can answer for once, though it's not entirely straightforward. St Abaddon did become a focal point in a preexisting conflict between the NPO and Topid, but it wasn't actually how things began.

The Consul (Second-In-Command) of the Pacific at the time ordered the region's military to move into St Abbaddon in 2017, in the midst of a large pile-off between defenders and raiders, though I do not recall which organization was leading the raider side. The Consul cited Topid's outspoken position against the NPO and ownership of the region "Pacifica" as reasons for using the NPO's military intervening in what was otherwise an R/D operation that wouldn't concern it. To provide some context, the NPO has referred to itself/the region/the community as "Pacifica" for many years, which is why an anti-NPO player holding the region could be seen as an affront. The connection between St Abbaddon and Topid was that he was a longtime native of the region.

I'm not going to go into the particulars in this post, but the scenario ended with the NPO claiming St Abbaddon as a Protectorate, which it would remain, a far as I'm aware, until late 2018 when a string of events caused most of the NPO's incumbent leadership to resign in favor of people who brought some much-needed credibility to the region.

This is really as much of the situation as I feel comfortable speaking on. Someone in the present day NPO would probably be a better source for the later events and speaking authoritatively on the state of affairs between the NPO and Topid right now. My reasoning for speaking on the initial stages of the conflict are that I was the only active officer in the regional military at the time, and I was actively involved in the organization efforts the night the NPO intervened in the pile-off. My explanation of the reasoning behind it came directly from personal communication with the Consul at the time. My viewpoint comes entirely from the NPO side of the conflict. It's also worth noting that I have no love for the old NPO government, so take my testimony with a grain of salt if you like.

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Jar Wattinree
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1176
Founded: Dec 14, 2016
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Jar Wattinree » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:07 pm

From Topid on the matter:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=33035857
Also Kitsco:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=33457603

There's more on the subject but's related to DEN stuff.
Last edited by Jar Wattinree on Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tribune of the New Pacific Order
November 28, 2018
Senator of Admissions and Personnel
February 28, 2021

  • Governor of Province Ardere
  • Praetorian of the New Pacific Order
  • Council Elder of St Abbaddon
  • Game Warden of Forest
A 14.4 - 3.7 civilization, according to this index.


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Baedan
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Posts: 94
Founded: Jan 02, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Baedan » Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:58 pm

Jar Wattinree wrote:

Arkadia Universalis wrote:

Thank you both so much!
baedan 1: the journal of queer nihilism

purist raiderist
aurrelius, TBH, lily, obootsma 69

"more like Basedan" - some defender idk

formerly soppy

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Tinhampton
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7755
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:15 pm

Which would you argue is the most successful region to have ever operated with a non-executive founder and why? :P
The Self-Administrative City of TINHAMPTON (pop. 319,372): Saffron Howard, Mayor (UCP); Alexander Smith, WA Delegate-Ambassador

Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540
Other achievements: Cup of Harmony 73 champions; -45 Darkspawn Kill Points; current WA Delegate of Auctor; "Tinhampton? the man's literally god"
Who am I, really? 45yo Tory woman; Cambridge graduate; possibly very controversial; currently simping for Marie Newman

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Nepleslia
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Posts: 84
Founded: Jun 23, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Nepleslia » Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:28 pm

Jar Wattinree wrote:From Topid on the matter:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=33035857
Also Kitsco:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=33457603

There's more on the subject but's related to DEN stuff.

Who and what were DEN, and why did they get unexisted by the mods?

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Jar Wattinree
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1176
Founded: Dec 14, 2016
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Jar Wattinree » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:20 pm

Nepleslia wrote:
Jar Wattinree wrote:From Topid on the matter:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=33035857
Also Kitsco:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=33457603

There's more on the subject but's related to DEN stuff.

Who and what were DEN, and why did they get unexisted by the mods?

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=373231
Tribune of the New Pacific Order
November 28, 2018
Senator of Admissions and Personnel
February 28, 2021

  • Governor of Province Ardere
  • Praetorian of the New Pacific Order
  • Council Elder of St Abbaddon
  • Game Warden of Forest
A 14.4 - 3.7 civilization, according to this index.


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Kazaman
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Nov 24, 2006
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Kazaman » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:26 pm

Note that this was The Black Riders rebranding itself as The DEN. Its connections to the original DEN organisation are tenuous at best.
Kazaman Asterien
Grand Admiral of the Europeian Republican Navy
Imperator of the Holy Imperium of Nabban

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The Notorious Mad Jack
Diplomat
 
Posts: 685
Founded: Nov 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:47 pm

It was, in the words of people who were old DEN, "as much DEN as any other incarnation".
Totally not MadJack, though I hear he's incredibly smart and handsome.

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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6469
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:47 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:It was, in the words of people who were old DEN, "as much DEN as any other incarnation".

Well, I also recall those same oldies saying there was typically multiple incarnations of old DEN at any given time :p
Last edited by Lord Dominator on Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Of crazed
Envoy
 
Posts: 212
Founded: Mar 13, 2005
Corporate Police State

Postby Of crazed » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:17 am

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:It was, in the words of people who were old DEN, "as much DEN as any other incarnation".


Sure it was, anyone who raided under the name DEN had a claim to it. As a member of old DEN, let me rework and old post of mind to respond to this again.

The DEN was not a single region, it was a raider military that used about 10 different regions as home bases. Frequently in DEN history, there were outright revolts against leadership and the people revolting would move to a new region and operate out of there. DEN, The DEN, DEN II, DEN Military HQ, The DEN Base, DEN Central Command, DEN Army were just some that operated as active. These regions would operate concurrently. We didn't report them to moderation, there was an attitude that strength and activity gave you the right to operate and over time the better raiding DEN would be come to be known as the DEN. This is where your authority came from, and if you didn't raid you didn't have that authority.

So then after The Black Riders got deleted for cheating they founded a version of the DEN under the guise they were going to stop cheating. I, being not active, did not get in the way of a new DEN organization being created. I was informed and told they got rid of the cheaters, and I said I am not going to stop you.

I am not the founder of DEN, but I believed in the DEN ethos and view it as part as what made us great. How many regions and organization's grow into irrelevance as founders, admins, and delegates cling on to power instead of allow for the active to run the show?

So for our story, we have two timelines converging. The former TBR rebranded as the DEN and sadly, they cheated again. I believe that cheaters should be punished. I think cheating, especially the way they did, is incredibly lame. Both from an R/D and a political simulation perspective. I am one of the longest running critics of scripting and IT related tools being used in the game and think the game is worse for it.

I will never agree with the flimsy argument moderation used to ban the DEN name going forward.

It hinges on the argument that DEN was just a continuation of The Black Riders and nothing more. It implies that DEN other versions of the DEN were constantly breaking scripting rules, which isn't true. And if that was true, "Old DEN" and myself would never get brought up in the conversation every single time it comes up.

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6013
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:12 pm

Perhaps it'd be better to think of DEN as a franchise/brand than a group.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
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Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78

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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Nepleslia
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Posts: 84
Founded: Jun 23, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Nepleslia » Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:21 pm

Thanks for all of the answers, everyone!

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Comfed
Diplomat
 
Posts: 696
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:55 am

How did Balder turn into an autocracy? For Laz and Osiris it’s because of internal strife that came with democracy but as far as I know Balder had a fairly “non-violent” history (compared to the other sinkers :P)

Other question: what’s the oldest offsite forum that still exists today?
Last edited by Comfed on Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mall:
Best part about being a mod was engaging in normal player behavior and getting accused of abuse
"You think this is abuse? I'll SHOW you abuse."
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

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The Church of Satan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1305
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:23 pm

Comfed wrote:Other question: what’s the oldest offsite forum that still exists today?

I don't know for sure that it's the oldest one, but the Atlantic Alliance's proboards forum still exists. It's dead, but it still exists.
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6469
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:11 pm

Comfed wrote:How did Balder turn into an autocracy? For Laz and Osiris it’s because of internal strife that came with democracy but as far as I know Balder had a fairly “non-violent” history (compared to the other sinkers :P)

Other question: what’s the oldest offsite forum that still exists today?

Last I looked, Lazarus is still plenty democratic, just with an unelected delegate (with little difference in that regard to TSP's outside the lack of elections).

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The Python
Envoy
 
Posts: 227
Founded: Jul 24, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Python » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:13 pm

What did DEN stand for?
Card Farmer (and Snake, and Defender). Nation mainly represents real-life views.
For: Universal healthcare, Universal Basic Income, Gun Control, Democratic Socialism, Pacifism, Abolition of military, Human rights, Animal rights, Political Freedom etc.
Against: Fascism, Dictatorship, Authoritarianism, One-party states, Racism, Militarism, War, Donald Trump, Nationalism, Conservatism, Abortion, Animal abuse, Slaughterhouses etc.
Political compass 9Axes 8Values
Bucardo, Apatosaurus, A time traveller 1 and all the other time travellers, N-defender etc.
Time-zone: GMT+13 (New Zealand Daylight Saving Time)
"fenda nations always deserve banjection" - Evil Cub

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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6469
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:18 pm

The Python wrote:What did DEN stand for?

DEN

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Jar Wattinree
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1176
Founded: Dec 14, 2016
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Jar Wattinree » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:33 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
The Python wrote:What did DEN stand for?

DEN
The Python wrote:What did DEN stand for?

Doesn't Exist Now.
Tribune of the New Pacific Order
November 28, 2018
Senator of Admissions and Personnel
February 28, 2021

  • Governor of Province Ardere
  • Praetorian of the New Pacific Order
  • Council Elder of St Abbaddon
  • Game Warden of Forest
A 14.4 - 3.7 civilization, according to this index.


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Sedgistan
Senior Issues Moderator
 
Posts: 29384
Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:26 am

The Python wrote:What did DEN stand for?

Cheating.

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Comfed
Diplomat
 
Posts: 696
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:51 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Comfed wrote:How did Balder turn into an autocracy? For Laz and Osiris it’s because of internal strife that came with democracy but as far as I know Balder had a fairly “non-violent” history (compared to the other sinkers :P)

Other question: what’s the oldest offsite forum that still exists today?

Last I looked, Lazarus is still plenty democratic, just with an unelected delegate (with little difference in that regard to TSP's outside the lack of elections).

That’s fair. My question about Balder still stands though.
Mall:
Best part about being a mod was engaging in normal player behavior and getting accused of abuse
"You think this is abuse? I'll SHOW you abuse."
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

User avatar
Shizensky Prime
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 49
Founded: Feb 09, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Shizensky Prime » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:18 pm

Comfed wrote:Other question: what’s the oldest offsite forum that still exists today?

10000 Islands has been on the same ProBoards forum since 2003 I think.

User avatar
Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6013
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:17 pm

Comfed wrote:How did Balder turn into an autocracy? For Laz and Osiris it’s because of internal strife that came with democracy but as far as I know Balder had a fairly “non-violent” history (compared to the other sinkers :P)

Other question: what’s the oldest offsite forum that still exists today?


I am going to post a link to an essay I wrote called Something Stirs: The History of Early Balder & Osiris, which may provide some relevant context.

One big formative event in 2011 was Rachel Anumia becoming root admin in Balder and Zander becoming delegate after Fotar left Balder. The departure of Fotar, a defender, created a void that Rachel assumed.

Balder and Lazarus were all impacted by the politics of the Cold War. Defenders were railroaded out of Balder by imperialist officials in late 2011 / early 2012 (for opposing treaties with imperialist powers) around the same time as Fotar left; imperialists were banished from Lazarus in 2013 during the rise of the PRL under the grounds that they had been an obstructionist/entryist influence in the region, opposing political and cultural reform and development. Balder and Lazarus were very hostile to one another. As imperialists concolidated power in Balder, parts of the constitution were changed slowly to create a constitutional monarchy.

In a nutshell, the Cold War-era autocracy of Balder & Lazarus represents the consolidation of power by two ideological blocs. In Balder's case, imperialists. In Lazarus' case, a Franco-Defender hybrid - the brainchild of Feux, Milograd, and others. I see Balder's current regime as a remnant of that older era from 2012-2015 where tensions were high between defenders and imperialists.

Today, the autocracy in Lazarus, however, represents a reaction to the Cold War - a kind of uneasy political stasis or truce or cessation. Certainly, it's widely agreed a strictly neutral autocracy is needed to starve off the past crises of ideology and entryism in Lazarus, but I think the armistice is more attractive in theory than it is to practice.
Last edited by Unibot III on Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // Collected works // The Gameplay Alignment Test //
Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78

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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Kiluania
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Feb 09, 2021
Capitalist Paradise

Real-world events

Postby Kiluania » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:34 am

Just slightly curious, does NS have any correspondence with current events? I am pretty new, and I haven't seen much about it.

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