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NS History: You've Got Questions, We've Got Answers!

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Jar Wattinree
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Founded: Dec 14, 2016
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Jar Wattinree » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:52 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:Yeah, long story short the NS2 that Jolt produced looks almost nothing at all like the NS2 Max had envisioned. I still have copies of the original design documents, it is massively disappointing how badly they perverted that original vision to try and scam easy money off players.

Can't say I'm at all surprised that Jolt eventually went under.

Only thing that comes close is what Pay and Win currently mocks.
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Comfed
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Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:55 pm

Jar Wattinree wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:Yeah, long story short the NS2 that Jolt produced looks almost nothing at all like the NS2 Max had envisioned. I still have copies of the original design documents, it is massively disappointing how badly they perverted that original vision to try and scam easy money off players.

Can't say I'm at all surprised that Jolt eventually went under.

Only thing that comes close is what Pay and Win currently mocks.

Lol, we don’t speak of that game here either :p
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Numero Capitan
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Numero Capitan » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:19 am

It was completely blind to the things that gives NS its long term appeal to people, such as the communities and regions that form, space for RP and regional politics and it flattened out conflict in a way that didn't create the ideological divide on native sovereignty that fuels r/d in the current game (and makes it more than just a simplistic mechanical/tactical strategy game).
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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:49 am

Reploid Productions wrote:Yeah, long story short the NS2 that Jolt produced looks almost nothing at all like the NS2 Max had envisioned. I still have copies of the original design documents, it is massively disappointing how badly they perverted that original vision to try and scam easy money off players.

Can't say I'm at all surprised that Jolt eventually went under.

Any chance at getting a look at those design documents? :P
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Reploid Productions
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Reploid Productions » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:08 am

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:Yeah, long story short the NS2 that Jolt produced looks almost nothing at all like the NS2 Max had envisioned. I still have copies of the original design documents, it is massively disappointing how badly they perverted that original vision to try and scam easy money off players.

Can't say I'm at all surprised that Jolt eventually went under.

Any chance at getting a look at those design documents? :P

Probably not, as I would have to get the boss' permission and I rather doubt he's going to give it, sorry. ^^;
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The Blaatschapen
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Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:47 pm

Sail Nation wrote:
Numero Capitan wrote:
Nothing really to report apart from some major disappointment

Mephistonan tried to get people to agree an r/d armistice in NS to allow regions to get established in NS2, but then we all realised how underwhelming it was and resumed normal service on NS

Slightly offtopic, but I was just looking up the features of NS2, and it seems that, if it was implemented properly, it could have been a great success. Aside from the Jolt controversy.

I really like the idea of introducing trade and war, beyond just issues and minigames like what we have here. However, the system of worlds and continents is complicated and from the looks of it, didn't cater well for RPing and politics in regions like what we have here. So if it had a bit more work and a bit less intervention from Jolt, it might have worked. But I also hate the idea of 'Ambassador' status. The way that donations work on NS means that you can get minor benefits from donating (such as not having to delete half your inbox on a regular basis), but it is more for players with spare money who want to help out the game to do so, which doesn't make anyone feel like their missing out. Locking other things behind a paywall isn't good.

But anyway, I don't really know much about NS2, as I wasn't on NS back then. If anyone used it back then, how did it compare to NS at the time?


I played it, for perhaps an hour or so.

Didn't like it, got annoyed by it. Decided to ignore it.
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Crazy girl
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Crazy girl » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:03 pm

I never actually bothered. :lol:

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King HEM
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Founded: Mar 07, 2007
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby King HEM » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:03 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Any chance at getting a look at those design documents? :P

Probably not, as I would have to get the boss' permission and I rather doubt he's going to give it, sorry. ^^;


Maybe in the next MaxChat 8)
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Mathuvan Union
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Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Mathuvan Union » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:17 am

Reploid Productions wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Any chance at getting a look at those design documents? :P

Probably not, as I would have to get the boss' permission and I rather doubt he's going to give it, sorry. ^^;

Couldn’t he then in theory just create NationStates2.net?
If he’s created nationstates surly it wouldn’t be too difficult creating another, right?
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Luna Amore
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Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Luna Amore » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:47 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:Probably not, as I would have to get the boss' permission and I rather doubt he's going to give it, sorry. ^^;

Couldn’t he then in theory just create NationStates2.net?
If he’s created nationstates surly it wouldn’t be too difficult creating another, right?

http://nationstates2.net/

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Baedan
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Founded: Jan 02, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Baedan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:24 am

Luna Amore wrote:
Mathuvan Union wrote:Couldn’t he then in theory just create NationStates2.net?
If he’s created nationstates surly it wouldn’t be too difficult creating another, right?

http://nationstates2.net/

see, how hard was that? :p
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Kazaman
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Founded: Nov 24, 2006
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Kazaman » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:39 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:Probably not, as I would have to get the boss' permission and I rather doubt he's going to give it, sorry. ^^;

Couldn’t he then in theory just create NationStates2.net?
If he’s created nationstates surly it wouldn’t be too difficult creating another, right?


Like Luna revealed, that's been done already. And it was a bit of a disaster.
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Kassimo
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Founded: May 10, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kassimo » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:48 pm

Comfed wrote:Did anything major ever happen in NS2, besides it's creation and it's death?

Not a 'major' thing, but I find it interesting that The Internationale started as an alliance in NS2. Since then they've been perhaps the most significant region for the far-left of NationStates.

I wonder how many other NS regions still active today began in NS2?

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Zemnaya Svoboda
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Founded: Jan 06, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Zemnaya Svoboda » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:06 pm

Unibot III wrote:
Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:Thank you for checking!


All I know is there were multiple nations with more than 20 endorsements which endorsed my nation, and I am almost certain I endorsed theirs back. I imagine that rules out the Pacific, and may or may not rule out the East Pacific.


Do you think you might have joined the regional forum of the GCR you were in, with an old, old account that you've forgotten about?

TEP's forum would still have that old, old data for instance.

I'm quite certain the first offsite forum I joined was Eurasia's forum (now finally irreversibly lost).

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Sail Nation
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Founded: Dec 25, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sail Nation » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:06 am

When did The Invaders go essentially inactive and why/how?

I'm pretty sure that the region is inactive, as I've not heard of or seen any involvement of them in anything R/D in, well since probably before I joined this site.
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Flanderlion
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Founded: Nov 25, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flanderlion » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:29 pm

Sail Nation wrote:When did The Invaders go essentially inactive and why/how?

I'm pretty sure that the region is inactive, as I've not heard of or seen any involvement of them in anything R/D in, well since probably before I joined this site.

Leadership lost interest in the game, but keeps the stamps going to hurt TBH (small investment, infinite salt from TBH and co).
As always, I'm representing myself.

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Sail Nation
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Founded: Dec 25, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sail Nation » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:45 am

Flanderlion wrote:
Sail Nation wrote:When did The Invaders go essentially inactive and why/how?

I'm pretty sure that the region is inactive, as I've not heard of or seen any involvement of them in anything R/D in, well since probably before I joined this site.

Leadership lost interest in the game, but keeps the stamps going to hurt TBH (small investment, infinite salt from TBH and co).

Interesting investment of resources into a game that they don't really play anymore.

The reason why I was asking was that if I can remember correctly, The Invaders are the spiritual successors to TBR and DEN. That means that the line of controversial/rule breaking regions has effectively 'died out', although it keeps going under the guise of an active raider region, and the only people that notice it are knowledgeable gameplayers, those who looked into it by checking their jump point and WA nations, and those who saw them go inactive.

I do think I remember getting a recruitment TG for them on one of my nations, can't remember which one.
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Mathuvan Union
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Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Mathuvan Union » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:04 am

Luna Amore wrote:
Mathuvan Union wrote:Couldn’t he then in theory just create NationStates2.net?
If he’s created nationstates surly it wouldn’t be too difficult creating another, right?

http://nationstates2.net/

Alright, I’ll add that to my angry letter to Max about recreating NS2 as he promised.
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Drunken Conquerors
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Founded: Sep 03, 2004
Democratic Socialists

Postby Drunken Conquerors » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:43 am

Sail Nation wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Leadership lost interest in the game, but keeps the stamps going to hurt TBH (small investment, infinite salt from TBH and co).

Interesting investment of resources into a game that they don't really play anymore.

The reason why I was asking was that if I can remember correctly, The Invaders are the spiritual successors to TBR and DEN. That means that the line of controversial/rule breaking regions has effectively 'died out', although it keeps going under the guise of an active raider region, and the only people that notice it are knowledgeable gameplayers, those who looked into it by checking their jump point and WA nations, and those who saw them go inactive.

I do think I remember getting a recruitment TG for them on one of my nations, can't remember which one.


The Invaders 1.0 started in 2004 with a merger of three raiding organizations. They raided in tandem with den for a year or two. The original invaders then made the (wise) choice of leaving the game right around the time of influence starting, if memory serves me. Good people, lost due to those crutches given to the terrible defenders of the time. They complained so loudly about “natives” the admin literally got ill and created influence to punish all of raiderdom.

TBR came much later and had the core people behind the tag raiding program scandal. I never wasted my time tag raiding as I find its goals to be rather unlofty, and its application exceedingly tedious. Same with the Den at the time, doing mostly the same things.

The Invaders 2.0 was supposed to be a return to real invading, which it was under Knots leadership. I was a placeholder for the “great return of gest” which was supposed to be a good thing. However no raids were ever led under his leadership, and yes, the recruitment telegrams are rather designed to deny other orgs membership than to actually grow the org currently. There unsurprisingly is bad blood between gest and certain members of tbh.

For a time 2.0 was decent, active, and completely ignored the rest of nationstates politics which made it great to be part of again. However, the political leech-like behavior of some spies ultimately destroyed the officer corps activity and led to the essential death of the org in late 2017.

That, and constant moralization of the original flag from 2004 got tiring. Those forum posts are likely still available should you care enough to view them.

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:33 am

Flanderlion wrote:
Sail Nation wrote:When did The Invaders go essentially inactive and why/how?

I'm pretty sure that the region is inactive, as I've not heard of or seen any involvement of them in anything R/D in, well since probably before I joined this site.

Leadership lost interest in the game, but keeps the stamps going to hurt TBH (small investment, infinite salt from TBH and co).

Not sure I'd call a few hundred dollars annually small, nor us the only victims.
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Goobergunchia
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Goobergunchia » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:01 pm

Drunken Conquerors wrote:The Invaders 1.0 started in 2004 with a merger of three raiding organizations. They raided in tandem with den for a year or two. The original invaders then made the (wise) choice of leaving the game right around the time of influence starting, if memory serves me. Good people, lost due to those crutches given to the terrible defenders of the time. They complained so loudly about “natives” the admin literally got ill and created influence to punish all of raiderdom.


Pffft. Lots of defenders hated Influence just as much -- we saw it as the legalization of region griefing.
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Twins of Hearts
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Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Twins of Hearts » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:05 pm

Goobergunchia wrote:
Drunken Conquerors wrote:The Invaders 1.0 started in 2004 with a merger of three raiding organizations. They raided in tandem with den for a year or two. The original invaders then made the (wise) choice of leaving the game right around the time of influence starting, if memory serves me. Good people, lost due to those crutches given to the terrible defenders of the time. They complained so loudly about “natives” the admin literally got ill and created influence to punish all of raiderdom.


Pffft. Lots of defenders hated Influence just as much -- we saw it as the legalization of region griefing.


I had never heard that perspective. Griefing used to be fun! Salting the natives, ejecting everyone you could as fast as possible. Good times.

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Fauxia
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Fauxia » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:42 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Leadership lost interest in the game, but keeps the stamps going to hurt TBH (small investment, infinite salt from TBH and co).

Not sure I'd call a few hundred dollars annually small, nor us the only victims.

I'd presume there being more victims than TBH being "co."

Just take the compliment, lol, Flander is calling y'all the largest invader region in the game.
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Flanderlion
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Posts: 1649
Founded: Nov 25, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flanderlion » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:28 am

Fauxia wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Not sure I'd call a few hundred dollars annually small, nor us the only victims.

I'd presume there being more victims than TBH being "co."

Just take the compliment, lol, Flander is calling y'all the largest invader region in the game.

@LD Gest makes decent cash as a lawyer, so he's not hurting for it, and the people he views ruined his game that are still around are primarily TBH.
--
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Sedgistan
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Posts: 29186
Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:26 am

Twins of Hearts wrote:
Goobergunchia wrote:
Pffft. Lots of defenders hated Influence just as much -- we saw it as the legalization of region griefing.


I had never heard that perspective. Griefing used to be fun! Salting the natives, ejecting everyone you could as fast as possible. Good times.

Except that was illegal pre-influence, and got various invaders DEATed and DOSed at the time. Between 2006-9 (when SC Liberations came in) was the best time for invaders to grief regions, as it was legal, and if you could get a password in place on the region, that was game over. Lots of defenders left the game when influence came in, as it was seen as the site endorsing region griefing (which was no longer illegal), and many of them decamped to Cybernations instead.

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