NS History: You've Got Questions, We've Got Answers!

[Crazy girl]

Intriguing. Who was GLA again, and what connection did they have to TNP or the Pacific?

Classified.

[Unibot III]

Goobergunchia was friends with much of the Empire and Equilism (same with Falc)

Alright, I'll bite. This is such a bizarre statement. Do you really think that Goober would have made a poor ambassador because he had good relations with the Empire and Equilism? And ... what is even the point of lumping me in here? What is even your point, that I would have made a poor choice to send to TITO? No kidding, but what is your goal here - to deflect criticism?

I thought this was an NS History thread, not your personal, self-important recollection of history. Give it a rest man. UDL failed and folded, like many organizations before it, including the FRA. We all move on without continually digging up old achievements (edit: relics was a poor, ironic choice of word) and not-so-subtly bragging about them and trying to continually justify actions from nearly a decade ago.

It's actually kind of cringeworthy reading you brush off compliments of the ADN, blaming TITO for all your problems, and praising UDL and bragging about their brief and chaotic existence. The only reason any of us remember the UDL is because you continually bring it up. If you want to be an NS historian, stick to the facts, not your personal interpretations of history, what "could have been", nor your own conclusions for WHY the UDL should be remembered. The UDL has a place in history (edit: to be clear, UDL had success at times and deserves some credit) but not nearly to the extent you are trying to convince us all of.

I have no idea who are you (Falc? - I mentioned you because Numero mentioned you) but I’m just going to comment that I thought Goober was a superb diplomat - I learned a lot from Goobergunchia. He was a great player. However, Grub had a habit of judging people’s credibility based off even the vaguest of associations with people he opposed — like a purity test.

I’ve expanded on my insider recollection of UDL-TITO relations as I remember because it’s one of the defining divides in defending. It’s not an authoritative account but it is the personal account of the leadership at the time. I felt the criticism of the UDL as being “dogmatic” was unfair and deserved someone to push back on the assertion. UDL was trying to open up our ranks, not close them down — and the process of opening up generated criticism from other defenders. The length of time that UDL was prominent is also just about the same as ADN — not “brief and chaotic.”

[Bormiar]

The length of time that UDL was prominent is also just about the same as ADN — not “brief and chaotic.”

Time dilation. I just asked Westwind about it (https://nsge.flarum.cloud/d/54-westwind ... k-adn-qa/2):

What do you think about “time dilation”? Do you believe that NationStates moved faster back then?

Oh yes, much faster. Our elections in Equilism were every six weeks, some wanted them monthly. We had three constitutional conventions in 2004, constantly evolving. I went from noob to Prime Minister/Delegate in about six weeks. First elected as a Senator, then appointed as Interior Minister, then Intel Minister and finally Prime Minster/Delegate. And President an election later.

You couldn’t take time from NS and keep up. It demanded a lot of your time if you were deeply involved. Since those early days, you can take months off of NS, and come back with little changed.

Time dilation makes it so there was more opportunity for the ADN to collapse at any given moment. Additionally, it allows it so the ADN had a far greater impact in the same amount of time as a more modern org.

[6ixDaze]

I have no idea who are you (Falc? - I mentioned you because Numero mentioned you)

I prefer, a la Prince, "the Artist Formerly Known as Falconias". Yes, Falc here. I've retired personal use of Falconias as (a) I felt it most closely resonated, for me at least, with Equinox, which has seen its time in NS come and go, and (b) OOC it just sounds lame. I came up with that nation name 17 years ago when I was 13.

I’ve expanded on my insider recollection of UDL-TITO relations as I remember because it’s one of the defining divides in defending. It’s not an authoritative account but it is the personal account of the leadership at the time.

Your "insider recollection of UDL-TITO relations as you remember" is exactly the problem. You "remember" it as one of the "defining" divides in defending. It's really not. It's an issue because you made it - and continue to make it - an issue, even though Grub isn't around anymore. With that said, I don't think many people are going to claim that TITO has historically been successful at keeping positive relationships with other defenders, particularly Grub, so it's not like TITO can escape historical criticism. Takes two to tango.

I felt the criticism of the UDL as being “dogmatic” was unfair and deserved someone to push back on the assertion.

I don't think it's unfair to label UDL as dogmatic. Dogma is points of view or ideals that are put forth as indisputable gospel, often onto others; and I am sorry to say, Unibot, but that is exactly how the UDL was run, therefore, dogmatic is fair criticism of the UDL and ultimately why it failed. The UDL actively attempted to interfere in the politics of other regions, and you, to this day I see, continue to deflect blame. It's okay to say you failed. You cannot rewrite history according to your recollection. I certainly failed as Arch-Chancellor of the FRA years and years ago, I would like to think I have reflected on those failures, and I don't pretend I was more important than I actually was.

The length of time that UDL was prominent is also just about the same as ADN — not “brief and chaotic.”

Perhaps the length of time the ADN and UDL were active were about the same, but there are two important words with this statement you glossed over:

1. prominence - not a single defender organization could ever hope to hold a candle to the prominence & influence that the ADN had. The reason that the ADN is still mentioned today is because it was groundbreaking and housed a huge number of NSers that, if it existed, would later be in the NS hall of fame. Conceptually speaking, the UDL would not have existed without the FRA; and the FRA would not have existed without the ADN. Comparing the prominence of the UDL with the ADN is absurd.
2. chaotic - the UDL would best be described as chaotic. If you are refuting my assertion that the UDL's existence could be described as chaotic, then you have convinced yourself of a false history that I cannot hope to nor have the energy to debate.

[Wabbitslayah]

An example of this would be in the case of “bigameplayers.” This was a major issue in 2012/2013. UDL took the unusual step of allowing UDL members to casually tag-raid with other organizations provided they prioritized liberations and defences as needed. I authorized that decision — I didn’t wave the Defender Bible around and decry staff as heretics. We were the first defender organization to make this move — not FRA, not ADN: UDL. (As a whole, there was a consensus that this policy did not work and it was eventually reversed.)

I'm gonna be honest here and say I think you only did such a thing because you had a problem with your people going full raider and this upset you. I remember you getting really pissed and ranting. I think it was a move to keep people from jumping ship more than anything else. So I doubt the assertion of some kind of progressive move on your part, though in a pragmatic way I can see why you would do that.

[Jakker]

I think one thing missing in your post is that almost all occupations in 2011-2013 began as a tag raid.

This is also not true. I don't have a number but at least for TBH's occupations, it nearly always were typically move and endorsing. TBR less so, but even they did that from time to time.

[Onderkelkia]

I think one thing missing in your post is that almost all occupations in 2011-2013 began as a tag raid.

This is also not true. I don't have a number but at least for TBH's occupations, it nearly always were typically move and endorsing. TBR less so, but even they did that from time to time.

Likewise, move and endorse was the usual method for TNI's occupations in that period. On the less usual occasions where our forces were visibly gathered in a jump point endorsing the point before jumping, it was clear that it would be one invasion leading to an occupation and not part of a tagging operation.

[Drop Your Pants]

I’ve expanded on my insider recollection of UDL-TITO relations as I remember because it’s one of the defining divides in defending. It’s not an authoritative account but it is the personal account of the leadership at the time.

Like that bloody stupid divide over flags? That takes the first place for all time defender divides. And you caused it

I felt the criticism of the UDL as being “dogmatic” was unfair and deserved someone to push back on the assertion. UDL was trying to open up our ranks, not close them down — and the process of opening up generated criticism from other defenders. The length of time that UDL was prominent is also just about the same as ADN — not “brief and chaotic.”

How the hell would you know what UDL did? You went horribly inactive. You recruited a lot of clueless people and Rav trained most of them, FRA yelling to move the rest. ADN was prominent for ages, UDL was a joke when Mahaj took over and turned up once a week.

[Unibot III]

I think one thing missing in your post is that almost all occupations in 2011-2013 began as a tag raid.

This is also not true. I don't have a number but at least for TBH's occupations, it nearly always were typically move and endorsing. TBR less so, but even they did that from time to time.

Note that the clear exception to that is Capitalist Paradise - which were we able to negotiate an agreement to cooperate on a liberation.

An example of this would be in the case of “bigameplayers.” This was a major issue in 2012/2013. UDL took the unusual step of allowing UDL members to casually tag-raid with other organizations provided they prioritized liberations and defences as needed. I authorized that decision — I didn’t wave the Defender Bible around and decry staff as heretics. We were the first defender organization to make this move — not FRA, not ADN: UDL. (As a whole, there was a consensus that this policy did not work and it was eventually reversed.)

I'm gonna be honest here and say I think you only did such a thing because you had a problem with your people going full raider and this upset you. I remember you getting really pissed and ranting. I think it was a move to keep people from jumping ship more than anything else. So I doubt the assertion of some kind of progressive move on your part, though in a pragmatic way I can see why you would do that.

It was definitely a pragmatic move, not an idealistic move: I never liked tag raiding. Tag raiding and bigameplayism was becoming increasingly fashionable among gameplayers — but if we banned taggers from participating in liberations, we were losing endorsements. My approach to organizing the UDL was always that it needed to be a “big tent” and encompass people with a wide variety of views — I didn’t want a small club of likeminded people, we needed troops to liberate.

Was UDL dogmatic? No I don’t think it was. It shifted internal policy over time and demonstrated itself to be as practical as any organization over some of the big questions that defenders faced.

I’ve expanded on my insider recollection of UDL-TITO relations as I remember because it’s one of the defining divides in defending. It’s not an authoritative account but it is the personal account of the leadership at the time.

Like that bloody stupid divide over flags? That takes the first place for all time defender divides. And you caused it

I felt the criticism of the UDL as being “dogmatic” was unfair and deserved someone to push back on the assertion. UDL was trying to open up our ranks, not close them down — and the process of opening up generated criticism from other defenders. The length of time that UDL was prominent is also just about the same as ADN — not “brief and chaotic.”

How the hell would you know what UDL did? You went horribly inactive. You recruited a lot of clueless people and Rav trained most of them, FRA yelling to move the rest. ADN was prominent for ages, UDL was a joke when Mahaj took over and turned up once a week.

When I die, I presume you will chisel “STOP FLYING THE FRA FLAG!!!” into my tombstone as a lasting testament to my stupidity. I’ve spoken about the incident before, but I’ll just add that I consider UDL-FRA and UDL-TITO relations to be different beasts. The former was defined by personal history (I held a major grudge against the FRA and this contempt was often reciprocated), I had very little history with TITO — I consider the conflict more of a head to head confrontation over isolationism — trust issues, of course, developed. I’m not sure what you’re referring to in the last paragraph (I trained a lot of soldiers, Sov often trained after ~2013)?

2013-2014? I left NS over some pretty serious personal issues; it was a very big regret of mine to just leave an organization overnight that I had recruited and led for three years. If I had to do it all over again, I most certainly would not have put it all on Rav, Mahaj, Sov, and others to just pick up the pieces. When I came back in 2013, I wasn’t thinking very clearly, I was in a weird, very depressed state of mind. I remember wanting to give Ravania the space to lead the UDL without me hanging around, I also remember being proud of the team and thinking they deserved to take the reins and run with it. I just didn’t feel like I was useful to anyone, so I just kind of just walked out of the room. It wasn’t a conscious thing, I wasn’t thinking very clearly at all. Milograd, of all people, was the person who found me one night at that point and did his hardest to try to cheer me up - I’m grateful for his kindness.

[Blackbird]

Does anyone have a date for the foundation of Anarchy, or have a way to track it down? It appears to have existed on May 28th 2003 with 85 nations, but there doesn't appear to be anything earlier than that.

That lines up with my thinking. I remember treating with diplomats from Anarchy back during the MASS Alliance days.

[Drop Your Pants]

That lines up with my thinking. I remember treating with diplomats from Anarchy back during the MASS Alliance days.

Back to retirement you old fecker.

[Jakker]

This is also not true. I don't have a number but at least for TBH's occupations, it nearly always were typically move and endorsing. TBR less so, but even they did that from time to time.

Note that the clear exception to that is Capitalist Paradise - which were we able to negotiate an agreement to cooperate on a liberation.

Are you trying to imply that CP was a tag raid? Cause TBH had a sleeper in there for 6+ months and the update itself was move and endorse. Not sure what you are pretending to be a tag raid, but that was definitely not one of them.

[Blackbird]

That lines up with my thinking. I remember treating with diplomats from Anarchy back during the MASS Alliance days.

Back to retirement you old fecker.

How rude.

[Unibot III]

Note that the clear exception to that is Capitalist Paradise - which were we able to negotiate an agreement to cooperate on a liberation.

Are you trying to imply that CP was a tag raid? Cause TBH had a sleeper in there for 6+ months and the update itself was move and endorse. Not sure what you are pretending to be a tag raid, but that was definitely not one of them.

No, I’m saying the fact that CP was not a tag raid was one of the major reasons we were able to secure cooperation versus other raids.

There seemed to be two general criteria for liberation cooperation: (1) the raid couldn’t begin as a tag, (2) natives needed to directly appeal to TITO.

So in a few cases we were able to establish TITO cooperation — CP was one, I think Liberal Haven was another — by asking the natives to independently appeal to TITO for assistance. They would think it was rather silly when we requested it, but if the natives contacted TITO directly we found it helped to secure TITO’s participation in a liberation.

[Belschaft]

An example of this would be in the case of “bigameplayers.” This was a major issue in 2012/2013. UDL took the unusual step of allowing UDL members to casually tag-raid with other organizations provided they prioritized liberations and defences as needed. I authorized that decision — I didn’t wave the Defender Bible around and decry staff as heretics. We were the first defender organization to make this move — not FRA, not ADN: UDL. (As a whole, there was a consensus that this policy did not work and it was eventually reversed.)

Do you still have your IRC logs from back then? I haven't kept mine but I do vaguely remember the conversation we had when I invited you into a channel called "Bel and Abbey are Bi-gameplay", though I suspect it was less hilarious for you than it was for us. The fact that anyone took that absurd bit of nonsense we came up with seriously was highly amusing, but we had great fun.

[Unibot III]

An example of this would be in the case of “bigameplayers.” This was a major issue in 2012/2013. UDL took the unusual step of allowing UDL members to casually tag-raid with other organizations provided they prioritized liberations and defences as needed. I authorized that decision — I didn’t wave the Defender Bible around and decry staff as heretics. We were the first defender organization to make this move — not FRA, not ADN: UDL. (As a whole, there was a consensus that this policy did not work and it was eventually reversed.)

Do you still have your IRC logs from back then? I haven't kept mine but I do vaguely remember the conversation we had when I invited you into a channel called "Bel and Abbey are Bi-gameplay", though I suspect it was less hilarious for you than it was for us. The fact that anyone took that absurd bit of nonsense we came up with seriously was highly amusing, but we had great fun.

The Cat Burglars certainly was light hearted! I don’t have my old logs though. The general idea of ‘invading *and* defending’ was becoming common enough (even outside the Burglars) that the UDL had to consider whether it wanted to accommodate it. There were a lot of doubts and concerns bouncing about in my head over it, I didn’t want to popularize invading or confuse natives into thinking the UDL weren’t defenders, but I also wanted to give players freedom and discretion and open up the organization to as many people as possible.

[Drop Your Pants]

They would think it was rather silly when we requested it, but if the natives contacted TITO directly we found it helped to secure TITO’s participation in a liberation.

Weirdly I've never had that problem with TITO. I think the point you're missing was you demanded them to participate and with a UDL lead for publicity sake (oh there was many an argument over UDL leads too, some of which missed jumps entirely). Face it Uni, UDL wasn't as amazing as you try to make out. It produced some amazing defenders i'll grant you.

[North Prarie]

Why is Osiris the fraternal order? And why did they transition to that?

[Unibot III]

Why is Osiris the fraternal order? And why did they transition to that?

Excellent question.

The original announcement proclaiming the Osiris Fraternal Order said "We are The Brotherhood of Malice. We have taken Osiris. This first battle in the war against defender subversives is only the beginning." Osiris Fraternal Order was thus a reference to the Brotherhood of Malice -- an invader group co-founded by Koth and Venico.

"Kog: How did you choose the name "Osiris Fraternal Order" for the new regime?
Venico: Well I wouldn't say it's a New Regime. It's the same government style as the last and the people are even the same, just minus Empire. And as I said before, Koth and I created The Brotherhood of Malice, we have always believe in heavy fraternal bonds amongst a region. The more you see yourself as a family, the easier things will be. And that's what I want to see, an Osiris that sees itself as a family."
viewtopic.php?p=17820728#p17820728

Quickly the OFO was re-branded, the language about "defender subversives" was dialed down and OFO disassociated itself with the Brotherhood of Malice. This was to dispel criticism that the coup constituted a foreign subjugation.

This tell-all piece is a superb account of the origins of the OFO: https://rejectedrealms.com/viewtopic.ph ... t=10030700

I think the point you're missing was you demanded them to participate and with a UDL lead for publicity sake (oh there was many an argument over UDL leads too, some of which missed jumps entirely).

We didn't demand anything. We were discussing what kind of conditions needed to be met for TITO to agree to collaborate in operations. You were negotiating cooperation before TITO's change of policy - TITO adopted a more isolationist policy and did not join FRA-led liberations any more than it did UDL-led liberations during that period of time.

[Boda]

What are the earliest examples of old players having their own chats. I know there is #senior_lounge in NS Leaders but is there anything else like it?

[Unibot III]

What are the earliest examples of old players having their own chats. I know there is #senior_lounge in NS Leaders but is there anything else like it?

I have no idea about old, old chats - the IRC/ AIM/ MSN "social life" of NS Gameplay is not well documented. But an expose on the #miniluv group generated a storm of controversy in 2013.

NSNE covered the initial revelations...

THEBES, OSIRIS – The press has been standing outside of the Pharaoh’s Office now for over three hours – setting up tripods, microphones and cameras in preparation. However, some speculate Pharaoh Astarial may have left the building already, avoiding the press by crawling through one of the various windows in the East Wing.

Why is Astarial being so hotly pursued by the press? Turns out, allegations of a shocking new scandal that have developed over the past few hours, involve the Pharaoh herself.

The story broke only hours ago. An IRC Channel called #miniluv (a play on “Ministry of Love” from 1984) was being used by Astarial, McMasterdonia, Cormac Stark, Tim, Wintermoot and at least one other unidentified player, as a personal channel. In #miniluv, these powerful political players organized smear campaigns and planned to disrupt foreign relations.

For example, it’s been leaked that this group has deliberately disrupted and killed relations between Spiritus and Mordor (the two biggest brokerite defender regions besides 10000 Islands). On a related note, the group organized smear campaigns against the FRA, Mordor and Arch-Chancellor Karputsk.

In response to this scandal, Karputsk, Arch-Chancellor of the FRA, has officially left Spiritus.

How did this whole scandal come to light? Apparently it's all thanks to a whistleblower, an unsung hero in many eyes, whose name has been omitted here for his/her protection. For the past few hours, the former members of #miniluv have been very hostile to the whistleblower; one source said the #miniluv group was “completely destroying and going after” this whistleblower.

Cormac Stark, a #miniluver himself, called the whistleblower, an “untrustworthy prick”, to another unnamed source.

It remains to be seen what will be the full political ramifications of this scandal. How will it affect Spiritus-Mordor relations? Will this bleed over into McMasterdonia’s campaign for delegate in TNP? How will this affect the trust that these players have garnered for so many years? Time will have to tell, because it beats me.

... Miniluv Messenger takes its name from #miniluv.

Some at the time argued that #miniluv signaled the emergence of a "Facebook culture" in NS - where players formed into social circles, distinct from in-game ideology, to pick fights with players OOC, gossip, slander, manipulate events etc. #Miniluv would be kind of bog standard nowadays, but at the time it seemed like somewhat of a novelty to have a catty little in-group stirring up trouble.

[Bormiar]

Funny. I was just talking about Miniluv and NSNE. Miniluv is certainly a great well-known example, but I believe Unibot clarified that we couldn't possibly know for sure.

The Empire is a fitting example as well, so Miniluv isn't first.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Some at the time argued that #miniluv signaled the emergence of a "Facebook culture" in NS - where players formed into social circles, distinct from in-game ideology, to pick fights with players OOC, gossip, slander, manipulate events etc. #Miniluv would be kind of bog standard nowadays, but at the time it seemed like somewhat of a novelty to have a catty little in-group stirring up trouble.

Those people were morons - especially as Miniluv wasn't even the first group of its kind. Hell, it took its name from the earlier #Minitruth channel - and I'm pretty sure I don't need to remind you of that one.

[Whamabama]

Why is Osiris the fraternal order? And why did they transition to that?

Excellent question.

The original announcement proclaiming the Osiris Fraternal Order said "We are The Brotherhood of Malice. We have taken Osiris. This first battle in the war against defender subversives is only the beginning." Osiris Fraternal Osiris was thus a reference to the Brotherhood of Malice -- an invader group co-founded by Koth and Venico.

"Kog: How did you choose the name "Osiris Fraternal Order" for the new regime?
Venico: Well I wouldn't say it's a New Regime. It's the same government style as the last and the people are even the same, just minus Empire. And as I said before, Koth and I created The Brotherhood of Malice, we have always believe in heavy fraternal bonds amongst a region. The more you see yourself as a family, the easier things will be. And that's what I want to see, an Osiris that sees itself as a family."
viewtopic.php?p=17820728#p17820728

Quickly the OFO was re-branded, the language about "defender subversives" was dialed down and OFO disassociated itself with the Brotherhood of Malice. This was to dispel criticism that the coup constituted a foreign subjugation.

This tell-all piece is a superb account of the origins of the OFO: https://rejectedrealms.com/viewtopic.ph ... t=10030700

I think the point you're missing was you demanded them to participate and with a UDL lead for publicity sake (oh there was many an argument over UDL leads too, some of which missed jumps entirely).

There was an attempt by Venico, and Koth to try to unite with members of Osiris who were displaced after the incident. However despite efforts from them, and a few others, however talks between the two sides never occurred due to a non response from the other side.

[Unibot III]

The Empire is a fitting example as well, so Miniluv isn't first.

Yes I think the Empire counts too.

Some at the time argued that #miniluv signaled the emergence of a "Facebook culture" in NS - where players formed into social circles, distinct from in-game ideology, to pick fights with players OOC, gossip, slander, manipulate events etc. #Miniluv would be kind of bog standard nowadays, but at the time it seemed like somewhat of a novelty to have a catty little in-group stirring up trouble.

Those people were morons - especially as Miniluv wasn't even the first group of its kind. Hell, it took its name from the earlier #Minitruth channel - and I'm pretty sure I don't need to remind you of that one.

I agree, but playing devil's advocate: I'd argue there is a much stronger "Facebook culture" to NS now than there was ... say, ten years ago. And some series of events needed to harbinger that transformation.