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Embassy of the South Pacific

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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RiderSyl
Senator
 
Posts: 4317
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Mother Knows Best State

Postby RiderSyl » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:49 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:But Glen, when do these rules apply to you?

Exactly the point.
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Aclion
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Posts: 2741
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Aclion » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:59 pm

Midand wrote:
Jar Wattinree wrote:No, no, no, give it until Thanksgiving.

If some people are really that salty, I say middle of December to before Christmas Eve.

Well the laz debacle started in august and ended in April. So I'll guess May.
Last edited by Aclion on Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Consular
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Posts: 2934
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Consular » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:09 pm

Midand wrote:
Jar Wattinree wrote:No, no, no, give it until Thanksgiving.

If some people are really that salty, I say middle of December to before Christmas Eve.

It isn't being "salty" to want administrators to be held to standards. I'm sorry you lack a sufficient understanding of ethics to see this is a big problem.

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RiderSyl
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Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Mother Knows Best State

Postby RiderSyl » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:29 pm

Land Without Shrimp wrote:But I do know that a good friend of mine suffered from certain people's behaviour and so yes, I supported Tsu's action. Am I sad it came to this? Absolutely? Am I saying that everyone on the other side is perfect? Absolutely not. But in terms of action Tsu took, in my opinion as an average TSPer, it was necessary. Something had to be done.


If your friend had lost the roof to their home, would you support someone that only did this in response?
Image
Because that's what you're doing.

Only one side of the unacceptable behavior in TSP was dealt with. Nothing has been done about the other side of it.

For TSP's hierarchy, a house with half a roof is perfectly acceptable. In reality, it's just begging to be damaged by the next monsoon.
And that next monsoon is coming. It's always coming. It's just a question of whether or not average TSPers care that their regional government isn't properly protecting them.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Darkesia
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Posts: 704
Founded: Mar 01, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Darkesia » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:01 am

I don't pretend to deeply understand what has happened here. But as an off-site forum admin, I will say that this is one of the reasons TWP uses mostly retired players as admins and never bans without vetting that decision together. We also accept that ultimately the decision lies with the owner of the site, Winnipeg. He does sometimes have to talk us off a #banThemAll ledge. As I said, I don't pretend to know the specifics here, perhaps things did cross the OOC line and perhaps they didn't. But, from what I see here, TSP may wish to gather their admins and form a statement internally. I don't believe TSP admins owe an explanation here. This place has no bearing on the off-site. A reassurance on their own forum may be in order, though. And perhaps it has already been done.

If that is the case, carry on ranting. I do tend to forget that drama and popcorn sales is the purpose of the GP forum.
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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5419
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:15 am

Jar Wattinree wrote:
Midand wrote:Alright, how much further are we still gonna be fighting a war over this?

I place bets on a couple more months...

No, no, no, give it until Thanksgiving.


Which Thanksgiving?

Cormactopia Prime wrote:But Glen, when do these rules apply to you? When I was there, it was you and your behavior people were complaining about. When I served as Chair and cracked down on your behavior, it was because Farengeto and Ryccia, among others, were encouraging me to do something about your in-character toxicity in the Assembly. And yet we know what happened there -- the warnings I issued against you were ignored by Tsunamy and never applied, and I was run out of TSP for daring to enforce any rules of conduct against you. And now here we are, with you claiming that TSP can and should enforce these rules. Fine and dandy, but when are they ever going to apply to you? This whole thing is a farce. Escade and Tim were banned because you don't like them.


While I served as Chair, I handed out red flags to Glen-Rhodes, and you (I think), and a number of people for simply being too heated. It happens. I'm guilty of it and so are many people in this thread. It's a game. People get heated, they say and write things they regret - and it disrupts the flow of discussion and derails Assembly debate.

What Escade and Tim were banned for is far more exhaustive than merely insults here or there: those are responded to with a graduated moderation system. What TSPers were party to was months of a deeply personal factionalism - sustained through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat - that has no real equal in TSP history. They were responsible for the premature departures of several TSPers from NS. The narrative here that you and others are pushing (perhaps unknowingly) is a false equivalence that's unfair.

I don't think TSP administration set out to explain to outsiders what those bans were for, it was already well understood in TSP. What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
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Chartresia
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Posts: 13
Founded: Jul 06, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Chartresia » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:01 am

Unibot III wrote:What Escade and Tim were banned for is far more exhaustive than merely insults here or there: those are responded to with a graduated moderation system. What TSPers were party to was months of a deeply personal factionalism - sustained through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat - that has no real equal in TSP history. They were responsible for the premature departures of several TSPers from NS.

Really? Aren't you supposed to be banned from the South Pacific? Because you seem to have a very deep knowledge of what's been happening in TSP over a matter of months.

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5419
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:23 am

Chartresia wrote:Really?


Yes really. That's an accurate reading of events. I wouldn't waste calories bullshitting anyone here.

Aren't you supposed to be banned from the South Pacific? Because you seem to have a very deep knowledge of what's been happening in TSP over a matter of months.


I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Chartresia
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Posts: 13
Founded: Jul 06, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Chartresia » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:34 am

Unibot III wrote:
Aren't you supposed to be banned from the South Pacific? Because you seem to have a very deep knowledge of what's been happening in TSP over a matter of months.


I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Then how do you know perfectly what's been happening recently in TSP?

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RiderSyl
Senator
 
Posts: 4317
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Mother Knows Best State

Postby RiderSyl » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:04 pm

Unibot III wrote:What Escade and Tim were banned for is far more exhaustive than merely insults here or there: those are responded to with a graduated moderation system. What TSPers were party to was months of a deeply personal factionalism - sustained through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat - that has no real equal in TSP history. They were responsible for the premature departures of several TSPers from NS.


Unibot III wrote:Most of my chats with TSPers involve the Canadian Constitution or speculating about the Democratic primaries. I’m increasingly disillusioned at what’s become of NS.


Either you're speaking out of your ass in the first quote, or you're lying in the second one.
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The Church of Satan
Diplomat
 
Posts: 791
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:12 pm

Unibot III wrote:What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.

Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.
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Unibot III
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Posts: 5419
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:51 pm

The Church of Satan wrote:
Unibot III wrote:What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.

Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.


The NationStates community does not have an agreed upon definition of anything. "Harassment" was and is a relatively approximate word for what went on, but it's a difficult thing to describe and articulate in a one word summary: personalized, heated factionalism, full of denigration and intimidation.

RiderSyl wrote:
Unibot III wrote:What Escade and Tim were banned for is far more exhaustive than merely insults here or there: those are responded to with a graduated moderation system. What TSPers were party to was months of a deeply personal factionalism - sustained through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat - that has no real equal in TSP history. They were responsible for the premature departures of several TSPers from NS.


Unibot III wrote:Most of my chats with TSPers involve the Canadian Constitution or speculating about the Democratic primaries. I’m increasingly disillusioned at what’s become of NS.


Either you're speaking out of your ass in the first quote, or you're lying in the second one.


Not a lie, nor am I talking out of my ass.

I often follow conversations without contributing, I'm busy with work through the day and I don't have much skin in the game anymore. When I speak in depth about something it's usually something RL like Canadian or US politics.

Chartresia wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Then how do you know perfectly what's been happening recently in TSP?


I'm banned, not dead!
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

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Tim-Opolis
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Posts: 5825
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Corporate Police State

Postby Tim-Opolis » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:58 pm

Chartresia wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Then how do you know perfectly what's been happening recently in TSP?

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Klaus Devestatorie
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Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:52 am

The Church of Satan wrote:
Unibot III wrote:What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.

Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.

I, uh, have not heard of this.
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The Church of Satan
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Posts: 791
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:25 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
The Church of Satan wrote:Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.

I, uh, have not heard of this.

Take a look at past incidents and accusations of harassment. There's a pattern.
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Aramanchovia
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Posts: 21
Founded: Apr 02, 2011
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Aramanchovia » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:39 am

Unibot III wrote:I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Based on the name, I would have thought South Unibot was your puppet nation, but guess not. I guess that one is not really hidden either though :)

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Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8960
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:58 am

The Church of Satan wrote:
Unibot III wrote:What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.

Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.

Some part of Gameplay has an idiosyncratic, poorly-defined, and relatively restrictive definition of harassment, that is in diametric opposition (according to you) to what the NationStates community has understood it to be for a very long time. A lot of work has gone into getting administrators to take the complaints of players being sexually harassed seriously, and that shouldn't come at any cost, let alone at the cost of other non-sexual harassment being minimized as non-actionable and outside of the jurisdiction of "proper" community management.
Last edited by Glen-Rhodes on Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cosmopolitan borovan
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Posts: 990
Founded: Jan 18, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Cosmopolitan borovan » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:18 am

Aramanchovia wrote:
Unibot III wrote:I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Based on the name, I would have thought South Unibot was your puppet nation, but guess not. I guess that one is not really hidden either though :)

So much for being "banned" in all regions
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Cormactopia Prime
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Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Libertarian Police State

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:29 am

Cosmopolitan borovan wrote:
Aramanchovia wrote:Based on the name, I would have thought South Unibot was your puppet nation, but guess not. I guess that one is not really hidden either though :)

So much for being "banned" in all regions

South Unibot is now controlled by Ravania Ultra, as should be obvious from its pre-title, "The Ravanian Caretaker."
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Posts: 6055
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:58 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:Some part of Gameplay has an idiosyncratic, poorly-defined, and relatively restrictive definition of harassment, that is in diametric opposition (according to you) to what the NationStates community has understood it to be for a very long time. A lot of work has gone into getting administrators to take the complaints of players being sexually harassed seriously, and that shouldn't come at any cost, let alone at the cost of other non-sexual harassment being minimized as non-actionable and outside of the jurisdiction of "proper" community management.


I don’t think anyone is saying non-sexual harassment isn’t a serious issue Glen. At most, you are. We’ve consistently said that all harassment is a serious concern, to all communities, and that all harassment also needs to be proven. You are the one who has continually downplayed it in response, said it’s only an internal issue, and so forth.

Let me say it again: No one is saying that you can’t act on other forms of harassment - just that if it’s harassment, prove it, and warn others, as is standard. Then, in response to your repeated backtracking about how it’s *not* serious, just politics and mild flaming, folks say “well then if it’s not harassment, don’t call it harassment.” That’s when you go and say that it is very serious and targeting players and all that bad stuff, which is where we go back to “okay, that sounds serious, please prove it” and so forth. The circle is getting old. Pick one, for the love of god.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Church of Satan
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Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:57 pm

Well Glen then what is harassment? Even you can't seem to come to a decision. Over the course of the last few weeks your posts have included

  • accusing Tim & Escade of harassment
  • saying that instead of harassment they had been flaming, baiting and trolling
  • accusing them of non-sexual harassment

All the while you've made these claims with literally zero proof even to Tim & Escade themselves. Nevermind that you've been backpedaling with everything you've been saying about the situation. Make up your mind man! :roll:
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Escade
Diplomat
 
Posts: 804
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Escade » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:44 pm

Actually the NationStates community, particularly admin, have received extensive and exhaustive evidence in which players including Unibot, Brunhilde, and Sam111 impacted members of the community "through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat" among other things. The majority of the community came to the swift conclusion that these members were no longer welcome because of their malicious, soul-harming behaviors.

Except three of four TSP admin who not only allow Unibot to be their mentor and guide in a private discord (he trained Roavin in becoming a defender for example) but seem to think it ideal to share "internal" matters with him to the degree that he speaks on their behalf and in defense of them.

Let's cut through some of the TSP admin and Unibot's nonsense:
1. They mention three players in the official ban all of whom are still on NationStates (cutting through this bullshit of "players quit prematurely").

2. One of those players, Farengeto, the Prime Minister of TSP and member of the Unibot fan club, brought up the same issues with toxicity last year (although in this case the player he wanted to see action against was Roavin for being harsh, repeatedly pinging him and publicly shaming him for having gone awol in a government position). Of course once the election cycle was over Farengeto dropped the issue of toxicity and actual solutions to the problem. Guess when he brings up the issue? You'd be right to assume when he is running for something. He will also collect this paragraph as evidence of OOC toxicity.

3. One of the players talking in this thread on the admin side, North Prarie, stated he needed a LoA for his mental health because he was losing the election. He also implied that if he lost the election he would quit\leave TSP. I'm not sure what players are expected to do? Vote for players because the player threatens to ragequit or otherwise tries to get pity votes? He also stated that players, like myself, who didn't vote for him "had no remorse." NSGP already is familiar with the plethora of players who misuse OOC. See that first sentence for some names. Let's not forget North Prarie supported Tim and Tim's questioning methods of his opponent for a good while and even voted Tim for delegate before doing a 360.

4. Some of the rumored evidence involves comments like "You haven't done your job for over two months - is it laziness or just incompetence?" If this type of comment is now OOC harassment then NSGP, NSGP Discord and the majority of NSGP players may as well put on their scarlet letter A badge for being "OOC harassers."

5. Here is how TSP admin have responded to requests for evidence from regional admin, leaders and other members of the community:
A. The evidence is too hard to collect, find, etc THEREFORE the TSP admin do not have any evidence
B. The evidence is "minor" and "not a big deal" i.e. this is a politically motivated ban where admin have weaponized moderation
C. Showing the evidence to the accused would allow them to counter-file based on the same standards so Tim and I can't be shown the evidence
D. Showing the evidence to NSGP will lead to NSGP making fun of the accusers for trying to manipulate IC into OOC which speaks to a larger issue
E. One of the four admin argued that they word "OOC" shouldn't have been included in the ban at all because of the above
F. The TSP admin don't care what the other admin think because they'll do whatever they want anyway and they think NSGP will move on

I'll repeat it again, there were two political factions. Both used IC political tactics to try to gain the upper hand. When one faction, no matter how hard it tried through voter coordination, rumor-mongering and use of "real life" issues could not stop Tim getting this close to becoming the delegate of TSP they decided to weaponize administration. That's utterly horrifying.
Last edited by Escade on Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Glen-Rhodes
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Posts: 8960
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:02 pm

The Church of Satan wrote:Well Glen then what is harassment? Even you can't seem to come to a decision.


Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Definition of harass
harassed; harassing; harasses
transitive verb
b (2) : to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct


Read? I think I've been pretty clear.
Last edited by Glen-Rhodes on Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Escade
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Posts: 804
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Escade » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:33 pm

Oh boy by that definition we have the following (and yes I have the DM evidence):
1. On July 18, 2018 Tsunamy let me know that he and the other admin had spoken to Roavin about his pinging of me or attempts to mention me by name or get involved in my conversations with other players.This was after I asked him to speak to Roavin to stop or cut down on the constant arguments and hostile atmosphere.
2. Since July 2018, Roavin - just in the TSP Legislator Lounge - has mentioned me directly 93 times. The last mention, that I know of, was to try to force me to answer his questions in which he let the lounge know that I was chatting on NSGP Discord instead of answering his questions. This was the weekend before I was summarily banned.

And at this point, I was out of the government for the last several months and simply a legislator (although I admit with enough influence to impact elections which is why I'm banned). If a legislator can be mentioned 93 times in a period of months then what scrutiny can a government official expect?

This also comes during and after a 48 hour ban in which the two factions (Roavin\Glenn) and myself and Tim were not to speak to each other. So there were at least two admin warnings\discussions for Roavin in this case. More notice than I or Tim have received about any of the alleged players involved in this conflict.

Is this an act of prolonged and targeted harassment? Is it simply IC politics? Spin the wheel and depending who does it the TSP admin will determine whether these repeated unwanted verbal contacts were "in good faith" or "psychological torture and harassment that requires therapy."
Last edited by Escade on Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:43 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Fauxia
Senator
 
Posts: 3905
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Fauxia » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:34 pm

The Church of Satan wrote:
North Prarie wrote:No, its's mostly that they just wanted to attack TSP :/

Even though despite the fact that my region has been TSP's closest and most loyal ally for several years I am still appalled by their administrators blatant abuse of power? You might want to rethink that statement.

No no no, everyone criticizing actions taken in TSP are all best buddies dancing around a campfire at night singing the “Litany of TSP’s Sins.”

We’re all out to get TSP :roll:
Last edited by Fauxia on Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not the similarly named Feux.
I have issues.
My views do not represent any government I serve in the unlikely event someone is insane enough to vote for me.
Reploid Productions wrote:Unfortunately, Max still won't buy the mods elite ninja assassin squads to use, so... no such luck.

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