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Off-site NSGP Forum

Talk about nation management, regional politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
Not a roleplaying forum.
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Cormactopia Prime
Diplomat
 
Posts: 955
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Libertarian Police State

Off-site NSGP Forum

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:46 pm

No, I haven't created one. I'm sure you'll all be relieved to hear that. :P

Rather, this thread is to discuss the need for an off-site NSGP forum, given the extensive over-moderation of the Gameplay forum lately. Please note that this thread is not intended to discuss whether over-moderation has taken place, but rather is to discuss the feasibility of an off-site alternative, whether it would be used, and how we can address some issues that would immediately arise. Some issues to consider:

  • Is an off-site NSGP forum even feasible? What are the drawbacks and how might we compensate for them so we can move forward?
  • Would you, or in the case of regional and organizational leadership, also your regions/orgs, use an off-site NSGP forum?
  • Who should be the root administrator for such a forum? I am asking for specific people and detailed reasoning.
  • How should other administrators and moderators of such a forum be selected?
This should get the ball rolling on a discussion that I think many of us feel needs to be had, given recent trends in moderation of Gameplay.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cormac Skollvaldr
Pharaoh Emeritus of Osiris (3x)

House Skollvaldr - Vincit qui patitur

Kylia Quilor wrote:Don't try to go head to head with Cormac. Even if you can actually win at the argument, you don't beat him. Cormac is like one of those bizarre creatures of myth and legend that cannot be killed, no matter what you try. He can only be appeased and placated. :P

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Sovreignry
Diplomat
 
Posts: 741
Founded: Sep 14, 2011
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Sovreignry » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:52 pm

Well, one drawback is that no matter who you choose as a root admin you're going to have to deal with a cacophony of people decrying bias and the other side going "Oh what, just because he's [x] that means he won't be reasonable?"
From the desk of
William Chocox Ambassador from The Unitary Kingdom of Sovreignry
Office 50, fifth floor, farthest from the elevator
You're supposed to be employing the arts of diplomacy, not the ruddy great thumping sledgehammers of diplomacy. -Ardchoille
It would be easier just to incorporate a "Grief Region" button, so you wouldn't even need to make the effort to do the actual raiding. Players could just bounce from region to region and destroy everyone else's efforts at will, without even bothering about WA status. Wouldn't that be nice. -Frisbeeteria

Why yes, we are better looking: UDL

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Marilyn Manson
Secretary
 
Posts: 31
Founded: Jan 24, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Marilyn Manson » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:54 pm

I like the idea, Cormac. You know I really like it because I commented on this forum using my favorite nation, which this nation is quite young. I would usually comment using Marilyn Manson Freaks or some others, but I really love this idea! :)
"Rock is deader than dead, shock is all in your head." - Marilyn Manson

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Cormactopia Prime
Diplomat
 
Posts: 955
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Libertarian Police State

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:55 pm

Sovreignry wrote:Well, one drawback is that no matter who you choose as a root admin you're going to have to deal with a cacophony of people decrying bias and the other side going "Oh what, just because he's [x] that means he won't be reasonable?"

Yes, this is by far the biggest drawback. I would like to try to find someone who is neutralish and has the respect of all sides. Surely there must be someone like that, right? One name that springs to mind for me is Astarial, though I have no idea if she would do it. Anyone else have suggestions?
Cormac Skollvaldr
Pharaoh Emeritus of Osiris (3x)

House Skollvaldr - Vincit qui patitur

Kylia Quilor wrote:Don't try to go head to head with Cormac. Even if you can actually win at the argument, you don't beat him. Cormac is like one of those bizarre creatures of myth and legend that cannot be killed, no matter what you try. He can only be appeased and placated. :P

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Todd McCloud
Senator
 
Posts: 3822
Founded: Oct 11, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Todd McCloud » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:56 pm

My thinking is there will always be a crowd who won't join it for whatever reason no matter who's running it. It will also not be as popular as the NSGP forums, as those will always be the gathering place for the news and drama, it seems. Could be wrong, though.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Adytus
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 407
Founded: Apr 27, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Adytus » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:57 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Sovreignry wrote:Well, one drawback is that no matter who you choose as a root admin you're going to have to deal with a cacophony of people decrying bias and the other side going "Oh what, just because he's [x] that means he won't be reasonable?"

Yes, this is by far the biggest drawback. I would like to try to find someone who is neutralish and has the respect of all sides. Surely there must be someone like that, right? One name that springs to mind for me is Astarial, though I have no idea if she would do it. Anyone else have suggestions?

I could do it.

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Marilyn Manson
Secretary
 
Posts: 31
Founded: Jan 24, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Marilyn Manson » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:58 pm

I'd join it regardless of who runs it!
"Rock is deader than dead, shock is all in your head." - Marilyn Manson

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Drasnia
Minister
 
Posts: 2153
Founded: Feb 02, 2012
Anarchy

Postby Drasnia » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:13 pm

If you have to use an offsite forum because of moderation concerns, it might be a sign that community behavior needs to change.

Just a thought.

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Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8693
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:15 pm

The NGSP Discord server is hella toxic, filled with meaner comments than can ever be said here. Why on earth would the community want to move to a less-moderated venue? An NSGP forum that's not as moderated as this one will quickly devolve into something extremely toxic, and would be a deep echo chamber, with people feeding off of each other's behavior.

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USS Monitor
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 21077
Founded: Jul 01, 2015
19th Century Iron Steamship

Postby USS Monitor » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:20 pm

The site rules would limit your ability to advertise such a thing on-site. We don't mind if a region or a GP group uses offsite forums in conjunction with NS, but attempting to replace an NS forum with an off-site one is going to run into problems.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
~~One Stop Rules Shop (OSRS)~~Getting Help (GHR)~~
NationStates moderators may be harmful or fatal if swallowed.
In case of accidental ingestion, seek immediate medical assistance.

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Reploid Productions
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 22635
Founded: Antiquity
The Ninja Mod and Evil Forum Empress

Postby Reploid Productions » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:23 pm

USS Monitor wrote:The site rules would limit your ability to advertise such a thing on-site. We don't mind if a region or a GP group uses offsite forums in conjunction with NS, but attempting to replace an NS forum with an off-site one is going to run into problems.

Eh, it sounds like it wouldn't really be any different than the various off-site venues that GP groups already use. The main problem is when it's an offiste loaded chock-full of stuff that breaks our rules/is inappropriate/etc, which doesn't sound like that'd be the case here.
Forum mod since May 8, 2003 -- Game mod since May 19, 2003
Reppy's DoGA FAQ - For those using DoGA to make their NS military and such
One Stop Rules Shop -- Reppy's Sig Workshop -- Getting Help Page
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Ifreann wrote:Bring Reppy your signet rings, she is our Brony Queen now!

I believe in the magic of friendship, the wholly awesome bronydom, the conventions of fans,
the forgiveness of haters, the resurrection of faith in humanity, and love everlasting.

In nomine poni, et filly, et spiritus stable.
Char Aznable/Giant Meteor 2017! - Forcing humanity to move into space and progress whether we goddamn want to or not!

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Galiantus IV
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Feb 13, 2013
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Galiantus IV » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:35 pm

I could see having a NSGP forum as a good thing, but the reasoning I'm seeing here makes me uncomfortable.

I would be for such a forum just so long as it is moderated correctly. I would be for such a forum if we could be absolutely assured our IP addresses won't be distributed to regions the root is buddy-buddy with. But I don't think these things will happen from this discussion.

First, the whole argument for this essentially boils down to "I don't like being moderated, so let's go somewhere where we don't have to deal with moderation". Second, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone to be the root who won't immediately be accused of bias in moderation, rules, forum setup, etc. regardless of the validity of those accusations.

Yes. It would be nice to have more than just this one board on the NS forums for the gameplay community to do their thing. If you can find a way to do that while keeping people assured of the moderation behind it, I'm all in. But so far as I can tell, the only way that could happen would be if this new forum was kept and maintained by NS staff - which sounds like something neither those who would support the new forum, or the mods, would be in favor of.

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Cresenthia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 562
Founded: Mar 03, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Cresenthia » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:43 pm

Galiantus IV wrote:I would be for such a forum if we could be absolutely assured our IP addresses won't be distributed to regions the root is buddy-buddy with.

This is probably going to be used as blackmail within the week, making the forum a banned link, and getting all forum admins DEATed if not DOS. The best alternative would probably be the NSGP Discord server, but that is far from a happy medium.

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Canton Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4404
Founded: Mar 24, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Canton Empire » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:47 pm

Sounds like a place used solely for treating people worse then we do here.
Former Vice Delegate of Lazarus, Guardian of Lazarus, Former Chief Justice of Lazarus, former Lazarene Ambassador to the East Pacific, founder, Republic of Channel Island
Offically Called a Silly boy by the real Donald Johnson

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Cormactopia Prime
Diplomat
 
Posts: 955
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Libertarian Police State

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:51 pm

Drasnia wrote:If you have to use an offsite forum because of moderation concerns, it might be a sign that community behavior needs to change.

This is not a thread for discussion of whether over-moderation is occurring. You can start a new thread for that.

Glen-Rhodes wrote:The NGSP Discord server is hella toxic, filled with meaner comments than can ever be said here. Why on earth would the community want to move to a less-moderated venue? An NSGP forum that's not as moderated as this one will quickly devolve into something extremely toxic, and would be a deep echo chamber, with people feeding off of each other's behavior.

The owner of that server has opted to engage in very little moderation. The goal of an off-site NSGP forum would be to have more clear rules that are tailored to gameplay culture since we understand gameplay culture, as well as more consistent application of those rules. The goal of an off-site alternative would not be to have no rules at all, which I agree with you would become extremely toxic extremely quickly.
Cormac Skollvaldr
Pharaoh Emeritus of Osiris (3x)

House Skollvaldr - Vincit qui patitur

Kylia Quilor wrote:Don't try to go head to head with Cormac. Even if you can actually win at the argument, you don't beat him. Cormac is like one of those bizarre creatures of myth and legend that cannot be killed, no matter what you try. He can only be appeased and placated. :P

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Kylia Quilor
Diplomat
 
Posts: 562
Founded: Jun 19, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Kylia Quilor » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:04 pm

There is a serious risk of IP-farming, to say the least, and also impersonation - there's nothing to stop someone else from naming their account after someone's main, for example. I mean, I've been a diplomat to regions all over the place, my IP addresses are easily located if someone thought someone else was me, so there's not much danger there, but for some people...

The idea sounds nice, but... man, I can't even imagine the logistics of it working. We'd need someone we all agreed was neutral to run it, and we can't even agree if a given mod is really neutral.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.
Her Most Kantrian Majesty Kylia Quilor, Occupant of the Delphinium Throne, Gavel and Sword of the Realm, Queen of Kantrias
Kylia Basilissa Regina Quilor Anacreoni

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Cormactopia Prime
Diplomat
 
Posts: 955
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Libertarian Police State

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:07 pm

Kylia Quilor wrote:There is a serious risk of IP-farming, to say the least, and also impersonation - there's nothing to stop someone else from naming their account after someone's main, for example. I mean, I've been a diplomat to regions all over the place, my IP addresses are easily located if someone thought someone else was me, so there's not much danger there, but for some people...

The idea sounds nice, but... man, I can't even imagine the logistics of it working. We'd need someone we all agreed was neutral to run it, and we can't even agree if a given mod is really neutral.

I'm not sure how much worse it has to get in the Gameplay forum before we decide the same arguments that have been used over and over again against an off-site alternative aren't insurmountable, but at the rate Moderation is going, I guess we'll find out soon how much worse it has to get.
Cormac Skollvaldr
Pharaoh Emeritus of Osiris (3x)

House Skollvaldr - Vincit qui patitur

Kylia Quilor wrote:Don't try to go head to head with Cormac. Even if you can actually win at the argument, you don't beat him. Cormac is like one of those bizarre creatures of myth and legend that cannot be killed, no matter what you try. He can only be appeased and placated. :P

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Bedetopia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 577
Founded: Nov 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bedetopia » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:08 pm

Against, for the aforementioned privacy and bias arguments, as well as the potential for elitism between those that join and those that stay on the NS forums.

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The Noble Thatcherites
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 109
Founded: Dec 03, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby The Noble Thatcherites » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:30 pm

TBH I think it will turn into something toxic very quickly. An offsite forum could certainly be tailored to the NSGP community, which in the end means it's going to get salty. The NSGP community will just have to adapt to the new perspective of the moderators in my opinion. Moving off site just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

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Kanglia
Envoy
 
Posts: 225
Founded: Nov 19, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kanglia » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:35 pm

To be quite frank, I just think this this doesn't make logistical sense, especially with finding someone everyone agrees on admin wise. I also don't think that it would end well, in the end. I do understand your point on over-moderation Cormac, and to a sense I agree. However, I do feel that what the mods are doing will eventually be a good thing, but who knows when that would be. In the end, I think that for the moment we will have to grin & get over it for now, as unpopular as that is with myself & others.
The Union of Democratic States General, Commander of FORGE
One day I'll be well known for something, but that day is not today

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Solorni
Minister
 
Posts: 2680
Founded: Sep 04, 2007
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Solorni » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:38 pm

Speaking of which, who runs the NS reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/NationStates/ ?
Lovely Queen of Balder
Proud Delegate of WALL

Lucky Number 13

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Reploid Productions
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 22635
Founded: Antiquity
The Ninja Mod and Evil Forum Empress

Postby Reploid Productions » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:41 pm

Solorni wrote:Speaking of which, who runs the NS reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/NationStates/ ?

No clue. If any of the mods/admins started it, we'd've talked about it in the sekrit lair first.
Forum mod since May 8, 2003 -- Game mod since May 19, 2003
Reppy's DoGA FAQ - For those using DoGA to make their NS military and such
One Stop Rules Shop -- Reppy's Sig Workshop -- Getting Help Page
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Ifreann wrote:Bring Reppy your signet rings, she is our Brony Queen now!

I believe in the magic of friendship, the wholly awesome bronydom, the conventions of fans,
the forgiveness of haters, the resurrection of faith in humanity, and love everlasting.

In nomine poni, et filly, et spiritus stable.
Char Aznable/Giant Meteor 2017! - Forcing humanity to move into space and progress whether we goddamn want to or not!

User avatar
USS Monitor
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 21077
Founded: Jul 01, 2015
19th Century Iron Steamship

Postby USS Monitor » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:58 pm

Kylia Quilor wrote:There is a serious risk of IP-farming, to say the least, and also impersonation - there's nothing to stop someone else from naming their account after someone's main, for example. I mean, I've been a diplomat to regions all over the place, my IP addresses are easily located if someone thought someone else was me, so there's not much danger there, but for some people...

The idea sounds nice, but... man, I can't even imagine the logistics of it working. We'd need someone we all agreed was neutral to run it, and we can't even agree if a given mod is really neutral.


If there was someone you could all agree on, they'd probably be a pretty cool person. You could probably nominate them as an NS mod and have them take on a leadership role on-site.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
~~One Stop Rules Shop (OSRS)~~Getting Help (GHR)~~
NationStates moderators may be harmful or fatal if swallowed.
In case of accidental ingestion, seek immediate medical assistance.

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Wordy
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 182
Founded: Apr 04, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wordy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:09 pm

I dislike the whole idea. Too often we see dogpiles on one player on this forum that is diligently monitored. How would an off-site forum deal with that?
It seems like you are asking for an environment that will turn toxic and spill over on to this forum unless the same moderating rules are applied.
The mindset of some of the players is the problem, not the moderation of it.

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Sovreignry
Diplomat
 
Posts: 741
Founded: Sep 14, 2011
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Sovreignry » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:12 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Kylia Quilor wrote:There is a serious risk of IP-farming, to say the least, and also impersonation - there's nothing to stop someone else from naming their account after someone's main, for example. I mean, I've been a diplomat to regions all over the place, my IP addresses are easily located if someone thought someone else was me, so there's not much danger there, but for some people...

The idea sounds nice, but... man, I can't even imagine the logistics of it working. We'd need someone we all agreed was neutral to run it, and we can't even agree if a given mod is really neutral.


If there was someone you could all agree on, they'd probably be a pretty cool person. You could probably nominate them as an NS mod and have them take on a leadership role on-site.

The idea behind this is that Moderation is over moderating this subforum, so your idea is more Moderation?
Last edited by Sovreignry on Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the desk of
William Chocox Ambassador from The Unitary Kingdom of Sovreignry
Office 50, fifth floor, farthest from the elevator
You're supposed to be employing the arts of diplomacy, not the ruddy great thumping sledgehammers of diplomacy. -Ardchoille
It would be easier just to incorporate a "Grief Region" button, so you wouldn't even need to make the effort to do the actual raiding. Players could just bounce from region to region and destroy everyone else's efforts at will, without even bothering about WA status. Wouldn't that be nice. -Frisbeeteria

Why yes, we are better looking: UDL

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