The Case for Multilateral Treaties

[Elegarth]

1. TWP would have never have agreed to terms like this with TSP - they've been explictly against recognizing the legitimacy and state sovereignty of democratic GCRs. Which is exactly what has created an impasse in TWP-TSP relations. I only cited NPO together with TWP because they do share ideas related to sovereignty, just NPO hasn't always practiced them the same way.

I live in 2017, 2016 if I'm too tired and forget I'm no longer the Delegate... Hell, I was the Delegate for almost a year, I'm sure I know better what I'm saying about TWP than you do, man.

This is the second time you pretend to know what TWP may or may not do. Hell, there have been... what? about 15 delegacy changes in TWP since? And you have the POWER TO KNOW, through all those changes, what TWP government may think of TSP nowadays? I don't get you Uni, but it seems to me you selectively use history on your behalf. So let me do the same. History said we once had an agreement with TSP, so we could have it. Also, historically we were sort of enemies for a whole, so we could still be it. In the past we have been / done a, b, c, d, e, ... , x, y, z things and hence we could potentially become / do / enact a, b, c, d, e, ... , x, y, z things.

Your point is void, again. TSP and TWP may not be the best of friends right now, but we have not been enemies for quite a while, at LEAST from my delegacy if not longer, and they are not seen as enemies now. No GCR is seen as an enemy by TWP, I'm almost sure tho you'd need to perhaps query Badger on his actual feelings. Why do you INSIST so vehemently on imagining those issues and bad will? Didn't I just said a few pages away that I actively tried to reach out agreements with SEVERAL democratic GCRs? None happened to become a thing, true, but I don't resent. You like SO much to create division with the excuse of unity...

[Unibot III]

1. TWP would have never have agreed to terms like this with TSP - they've been explictly against recognizing the legitimacy and state sovereignty of democratic GCRs. Which is exactly what has created an impasse in TWP-TSP relations. I only cited NPO together with TWP because they do share ideas related to sovereignty, just NPO hasn't always practiced them the same way.

I live in 2017, 2016 if I'm too tired and forget I'm no longer the Delegate... Hell, I was the Delegate for almost a year, I'm sure I know better what I'm saying about TWP than you do, man.

This is the second time you pretend to know what TWP may or may not do. Hell, there have been... what? about 15 delegacy changes in TWP since? And you have the POWER TO KNOW, through all those changes, what TWP government may think of TSP nowadays? I don't get you Uni, but it seems to me you selectively use history on your behalf. So let me do the same. History said we once had an agreement with TSP, so we could have it. Also, historically we were sort of enemies for a whole, so we could still be it. In the past we have been / done a, b, c, d, e, ... , x, y, z things and hence we could potentially become / do / enact a, b, c, d, e, ... , x, y, z things.

Your point is void, again. TSP and TWP may not be the best of friends right now, but we have not been enemies for quite a while, at LEAST from my delegacy if not longer, and they are not seen as enemies now. No GCR is seen as an enemy by TWP, I'm almost sure tho you'd need to perhaps query Badger on his actual feelings. Why do you INSIST so vehemently on imagining those issues and bad will? Didn't I just said a few pages away that I actively tried to reach out agreements with SEVERAL democratic GCRs? None happened to become a thing, true, but I don't resent. You like SO much to create division with the excuse of unity...

I'll rescind my charge when TWP accepts TSP's democratic structure and agrees to non-aggression terms that blocks TWP from supporting a coup in TSP.

MoFAs in TSP have been trying to get even that basic concession out of TWP since 2011 with no luck. I don't anticipate TWP wavering.

You may want agreements with "SEVERAL democratic GCRs" but you want those agreements on your terms, namely, retaining the right to support a coup against said regions.

[Big Bad Badger]

I grow extremely weary of being told how The West Pacific thinks by people who have not set foot in our region, forum, or discord server or have they been apart of meetings, cabals, or regional discussions concerning TWP and our foreign affairs policies in eons! Nearly every event spoken of in this thread concerning TWP speaks of events that are ANCIENT history in our region.

We stand by our brothers and sisters in the GCR's whether it be our close friends and allies in the the GCR Sovereignty Accords or not! Throughout my time as Delegate, our FA policies have been to strengthen our relations with GCR's and other regions that we have a similar world view. Judge TWP by our words and deeds NOW.

We know who our friends are in the NSverse. We also know that there are individuals that want to see our way of life come to an end. We do not hold entire regions at fault for the antiquated, narrow-minded mentality held be a few individuals.

[Elegarth]

I grow extremely weary of being told how The West Pacific thinks by people who have not set foot in our region, forum, or discord server or have they been apart of meetings, cabals, or regional discussions concerning TWP and our foreign affairs policies in eons! Nearly every event spoken of in this thread concerning TWP speaks of events that are ANCIENT history in our region.

We stand by our brothers and sisters in the GCR's whether it be our close friends and allies in the the GCR Sovereignty Accords or not! Throughout my time as Delegate, our FA policies have been to strengthen our relations with GCR's and other regions that we have a similar world view. Judge TWP by our words and deeds NOW.

We know who our friends are in the NSverse. We also know that there are individuals that want to see our way of life come to an end. We do not hold entire regions at fault for the antiquated, narrow-minded mentality held be a few individuals.

Well said, Badger!

I'll rescind my charge when TWP accepts TSP's democratic structure and agrees to non-aggression terms that blocks TWP from supporting a coup in TSP.

MoFAs in TSP have been trying to get even that basic concession out of TWP since 2011 with no luck. I don't anticipate TWP wavering.

You may want agreements with "SEVERAL democratic GCRs" but you want those agreements on your terms, namely, retaining the right to support a coup against said regions.

1) There are no charges for you to rescind, just you being wrong about something - again - based on wrong assumptions and ideas - again - and not wanting to see things like they are, instead seeing them as you think they are - again. This comes as no surprise to anyone in GP, to be honest. I insist on what I told you before, Uni: for such a capable person, you are so narrow sighted...

2) No MoFa from TSP ever approached me officially while I was TWP delegate, hence, your claim is fake. However, if TSP wish to pursue any kind of relationship with TWP and they feel they need some mediator, I'm willing to help them with my TWP brethren, as I was also a TSP citizen (and have been a few times, when the time permits)

3) We allow all regions to choose their own government form, even if they want to choose off-site forms that are not supported by the laws of this realm our regions exist at. To each its own, even if we don't agree. You don't seem to get this, how hard it is?

4) You are so blatantly wrong, again presuming to know what we want... it gets old... lol... if we wanted such a thing, as you say, then the changes to the GCR Accords to accommodate the concerns of Osiris wouldn't have been made. So yeah, again, you are being delusional man.

Having said that, I must also reply to something regarding NPO cuz it was done during my time. While I was in charge of FA stuff, we signed a NAP with TRR. A NAP that was NEVER broken or violated. If you disagreed ideologically with actions that happened through membership of NPO that's alright, but the NAP with TRR was EACH and EVERY time respected. What happened in Lazarus was a shame, indeed. But I think former emperor Pierconium has addressed that several times, and I don't need to expand upon it.

EDIT

Regarding 2, I also recall there were 2 periods during my delegacy where I happened to be semi-LOA due to RL, and if TSP approached me during those, it is possible I didn't followed up on it, but not out of any negative thing, just cuz I was humanly busy... If that is the case, I apologize, just get back to me and I'll gladly mediate with the current Delegate, or reach him directly

[Unibot III]

I grow extremely weary of being told how The West Pacific thinks by people who have not set foot in our region, forum, or discord server or have they been apart of meetings, cabals, or regional discussions concerning TWP and our foreign affairs policies in eons! Nearly every event spoken of in this thread concerning TWP speaks of events that are ANCIENT history in our region.

We stand by our brothers and sisters in the GCR's whether it be our close friends and allies in the the GCR Sovereignty Accords or not! Throughout my time as Delegate, our FA policies have been to strengthen our relations with GCR's and other regions that we have a similar world view. Judge TWP by our words and deeds NOW.

We know who our friends are in the NSverse. We also know that there are individuals that want to see our way of life come to an end. We do not hold entire regions at fault for the antiquated, narrow-minded mentality held be a few individuals.

You've said a lot here,

You've said (1) everyone should dismiss what I've said because I 'don't know TWP', (2) that I'm talking about "ANCIENT" history, (3) that you stand by your "brothers and sisters" in the GCRs, and that (4) TWP wants to strengthen relations with GCR's and others with which "we have a similar world view."

But at no point in this blurb of yours did you say,

1. That TWP recognizes TSP's right to be democratic.

2. That TWP would not support a coup against TSP.

You seem to be under the impression that you can discredit what I'm saying without even vaguely attempting to contradict it. You used the bloody "similar world view" line, even.

3) We allow all regions to choose their own government form, even if they want to choose off-site forms that are not supported by the laws of this realm our regions exist at. To each its own, even if we don't agree. You don't seem to get this, how hard it is?

How hard is it? It's not hard at all. The only people who've made it hard is TWP, who've been shutting down relations with TSP since time immemorial over this exact issue. The idea that TWP would just back down now is a load of crock, your own delegate just equivocated and danced around the idea of non-aggression with an outright waltz.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I grow extremely weary of being told how The West Pacific thinks by people who have not set foot in our region, forum, or discord server or have they been apart of meetings, cabals, or regional discussions concerning TWP and our foreign affairs policies in eons! Nearly every event spoken of in this thread concerning TWP speaks of events that are ANCIENT history in our region.

We stand by our brothers and sisters in the GCR's whether it be our close friends and allies in the the GCR Sovereignty Accords or not! Throughout my time as Delegate, our FA policies have been to strengthen our relations with GCR's and other regions that we have a similar world view. Judge TWP by our words and deeds NOW.

We know who our friends are in the NSverse. We also know that there are individuals that want to see our way of life come to an end. We do not hold entire regions at fault for the antiquated, narrow-minded mentality held be a few individuals.

I don't know exactly to whom you were referring, but for the record, I don't think the West Pacific's "way of life" should come to an end unless West Pacificans choose to change it. I'm not going to pretend I agree with how you govern your region, but it's still up to West Pacificans, not anyone else. My view is the same in regard to the Pacific.

That said, I can understand your frustration, but you also need to understand that what you're referring to as "ancient history" is actually relatively recent, unless you consider 2013-2015 to be ancient. The policy of not respecting the sovereignty of other Feeder and Sinker communities based on their own values and constitutions was a policy that endured for years. Skepticism isn't going to disappear overnight, and I would imagine a fair few are waiting to see if the West Pacific's new, more open and respectful position toward the other Feeders and Sinkers is more than words when it's time for concrete action, and if this is an enduring change that extends beyond your Delegacy or a fluke that will expire when a new Delegate takes office in the West Pacific.

Your association with Empire through the Rahl family, and the elevation of Neenee to the office of Guardian of the West Pacific despite Empire's troubling history, including in the West Pacific itself, is also not helpful to your credibility or the West Pacific's. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

[Elegarth]

Your association with Empire through the Rahl family, and the elevation of Neenee to the office of Guardian of the West Pacific despite Empire's troubling history, including in the West Pacific itself, is also not helpful to your credibility or the West Pacific's. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

By this logic, no one should ever believer or trust in you, given how you change your color irregularly and unpredictably. And yet, there are some of us, including myself, who don't immediately reject your ideas or attempts at achieving stuff just cuz of your history.

So all in all, it seems that people has made choices that do not take ACTUAL reasoning, but instead pure emotional logic, and will THEN construct a reason out to justify themselves. If that is the case, then our actions will ALWAYS be irrelevant to them, so why should we bother FOR them?

[Big Bad Badger]

I grow extremely weary of being told how The West Pacific thinks by people who have not set foot in our region, forum, or discord server or have they been apart of meetings, cabals, or regional discussions concerning TWP and our foreign affairs policies in eons! Nearly every event spoken of in this thread concerning TWP speaks of events that are ANCIENT history in our region.

We stand by our brothers and sisters in the GCR's whether it be our close friends and allies in the the GCR Sovereignty Accords or not! Throughout my time as Delegate, our FA policies have been to strengthen our relations with GCR's and other regions that we have a similar world view. Judge TWP by our words and deeds NOW.

We know who our friends are in the NSverse. We also know that there are individuals that want to see our way of life come to an end. We do not hold entire regions at fault for the antiquated, narrow-minded mentality held be a few individuals.

You've said a lot here,

You've said (1) everyone should dismiss what I've said because I 'don't know TWP', (2) that I'm talking about "ANCIENT" history, (3) that you stand by your "brothers and sisters" in the GCRs, and that (4) TWP wants to strengthen relations with GCR's and others with which "we have a similar world view."

But at no point in this blurb of yours did you say,

1. That TWP recognizes TSP's right to be democratic.

2. That TWP would not support a coup against TSP.

You seem to be under the impression that you can discredit what I'm saying without even vaguely attempting to contradict it. You used the bloody "similar world view" line, even.

3) We allow all regions to choose their own government form, even if they want to choose off-site forms that are not supported by the laws of this realm our regions exist at. To each its own, even if we don't agree. You don't seem to get this, how hard it is?

How hard is it? It's not hard at all. The only people who've made it hard is TWP, who've been shutting down relations with TSP since time immemorial over this exact issue. The idea that TWP would just back down now is a load of crock, your own delegate just equivocated and danced around the idea of non-aggression with an outright waltz.

I don't need to discredit you. You've done a good enough job of that by reaching for specious conclusions and untrue statements about TSP reaching out to us continually since 2011.

TSP can choose the form of government they see fit whether it be democratic or not. TWP will not support any coup attempt in TSP. Had any official from TSP contacted me concerning an official treaty stating this, we would presently be beyond such banter.

Your association with Empire through the Rahl family, and the elevation of Neenee to the office of Guardian of the West Pacific despite Empire's troubling history, including in the West Pacific itself, is also not helpful to your credibility or the West Pacific's. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

You do yourself a disservice by making statements like this.

[Cormactopia Prime]

By this logic, no one should ever believer or trust in you, given how you change your color irregularly and unpredictably. And yet, there are some of us, including myself, who don't immediately reject your ideas or attempts at achieving stuff just cuz of your history.

So all in all, it seems that people has made choices that do not take ACTUAL reasoning, but instead pure emotional logic, and will THEN construct a reason out to justify themselves. If that is the case, then our actions will ALWAYS be irrelevant to them, so why should we bother FOR them?

Pierconium just acknowledged earlier in this thread that Osiris was not invited to join the GCR Sovereignty Accords until after I left office in Osiris, precisely because of my credibility and consistency issues. Credibility and consistency matter. No one is going to make me Delegate of another Feeder or Sinker anytime soon, if ever, and no one is going to immediately trust Feeders and Sinkers with extremely checkered history and current questionable connections based on mere words and gestures.

The better option than complaining about it as though you're the victims, like your regions aren't the ones that caused this state of affairs in the first place, would be to demonstrate through actual, concrete actions that you've changed. That is how trust will be rebuilt over time. It's not going to happen immediately because you're saying the right things; some of these regions have said all the right things before, only to revert to form when the going gets tough. That would be a much better way forward if you're interested in actual improved relations rather than posturing.

Your association with Empire through the Rahl family, and the elevation of Neenee to the office of Guardian of the West Pacific despite Empire's troubling history, including in the West Pacific itself, is also not helpful to your credibility or the West Pacific's. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

You do yourself a disservice by making statements like this.

You do yourself and the West Pacific a disservice by not recognizing that it's true, whether you like it or not. Fair or not, association with Empire is an automatic mark against anyone, and they have no one but themselves to blame for that. No one forced them to engage in years of subversion against multiple Feeders and Sinkers -- that was their choice.

[Unibot III]

TSP can choose the form of government they see fit whether it be democratic or not. TWP will not support any coup attempt in TSP. Had any official from TSP contacted me concerning an official treaty stating this, we would presently be beyond such banter.

*RECORDED FOR FUTURE REFERENCE*

Cheers.

[Elegarth]

Pierconium just acknowledged earlier in this thread that Osiris was not invited to join the GCR Sovereignty Accords until after I left office in Osiris, precisely because of my credibility and consistency issues.

I personally didn't mind Osiris under you as Delegate, but then again, we did wanted some more stability. It not required to be you stepping down tbh, but it happened to have been a good moment.

I'd choose you as Delegate if it was in my power. Perhaps not of TWP, but somewhere. After all, it is entertaining to see you turn around. Annoying, sometimes frustrating, but always entertaining. I guess fun and entertainment are good.

I've said this before: DEN take over of TWP could easily be the MOST ENTERTAINING TIME I ever had in this realm.

[Wickedly evil people]

Since Democracy can not exist in Nationstates it is impossible to recognize something that is fundamentally impossible.


Your fantastical ravings about democracy mark you as a zealot, and you're a zealot about something that quite literally doesn't exist except in your imagination.


So no Unibot, this Guardian will never support an agreement to recognize something that doesn't exist.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Since Democracy can not exist in Nationstates it is impossible to recognize something that is fundamentally impossible.


Your fantastical ravings about democracy mark you as a zealot, and you're a zealot about something that quite literally doesn't exist except in your imagination.


So no Unibot, this Guardian will never support an agreement to recognize something that doesn't exist.

And this, Badger, is why the West Pacific can't have nice things.

[Darkesia]

West Pacificans ARE nice things. We don't need to have anything but all the chocolate.

Everything else is just silly.

[Unibot III]

Since Democracy can not exist in Nationstates it is impossible to recognize something that is fundamentally impossible.


Your fantastical ravings about democracy mark you as a zealot, and you're a zealot about something that quite literally doesn't exist except in your imagination.


So no Unibot, this Guardian will never support an agreement to recognize something that doesn't exist.

And this, Badger, is why the West Pacific can't have nice things.

What was that, twenty minutes?

[Aimdar-Goomdar]

Since Democracy can not exist in Nationstates it is impossible to recognize something that is fundamentally impossible.


Your fantastical ravings about democracy mark you as a zealot, and you're a zealot about something that quite literally doesn't exist except in your imagination.


So no Unibot, this Guardian will never support an agreement to recognize something that doesn't exist.

Democracy is fundamental to people's rights. It exists on NS. Improve your own region's system.

[Cerian Quilor]

And this, Badger, is why the West Pacific can't have nice things.

What was that, twenty minutes?

Well, at the moment, Wickedly Evil People isn't the delegate of TWP...

[Elegarth]

Democracy is fundamental to people's rights. It exists on NS. Improve your own region's system.

It actually does not, in the way that you mean it. There is just the rule of the endorsements and that's it. No elections, no candidates, etc.

Off-white stuff has been described, once and again and again, as outside of this realm and its mechanics.

[Consular]

Such a classic Eli post.

Anyway. The problem with Unibot and others, with their perspective, is the assumption that democracy is at all what matters. It's a focus on procedure rather than substance. How authority in a region is passed on concerns me far less than how that authority is exercised. A democracy can be oppressive just as an autocracy can be benevolent.

[Elegarth]

Such a classic Eli post.

Anyway. The problem with Unibot and others, with their perspective, is the assumption that democracy is at all what matters. It's a focus on procedure rather than substance. How authority in a region is passed on concerns me far less than how that authority is exercised. A democracy can be oppressive just as an autocracy can be benevolent.

Consular, you have always had such an awesome way with words, man. I'm glad to call you friend

Good post.

[Belschaft]

As it's vaguely relevant, and some people seem unaware, I should point out that TSP elects our Delegate in-game via a vote all regional WA members are free to participate in.

[Elegarth]

As it's vaguely relevant, and some people seem unaware, I should point out that TSP elects our Delegate in-game via a vote all regional WA members are free to participate in.

I was not aware, and it seems like the first true implementation of an in-site democracy. However, I'm guessing it still works on the good will of the previous delegate vacating the seat, right?

[Belschaft]

As it's vaguely relevant, and some people seem unaware, I should point out that TSP elects our Delegate in-game via a vote all regional WA members are free to participate in.

I was not aware, and it seems like the first true implementation of an in-site democracy. However, I'm guessing it still works on the good will of the previous delegate vacating the seat, right?

Yes, if by "good will" you mean the requirement and expectation that the Delegate is subject to the same laws and rules as everyone else in the region.

[Myrth]

Such a classic Eli post.

Anyway. The problem with Unibot and others, with their perspective, is the assumption that democracy is at all what matters. It's a focus on procedure rather than substance. How authority in a region is passed on concerns me far less than how that authority is exercised. A democracy can be oppressive just as an autocracy can be benevolent.

Something the NPO has been saying since 2003.

[Pierconium]

As it's vaguely relevant, and some people seem unaware, I should point out that TSP elects our Delegate in-game via a vote all regional WA members are free to participate in.

So any WA nation in TSP can swap endorsements to the Delegacy without participation in the offsite community or by having 'approval' from some externally styled body?