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[Killer Kitty]

You can talk about diplomacy, Rach, but I'm not sure you know how it's done, except with obvious political allies, and apparently, userite coupers.

I'm no expert in the field of persuasive arguments, but I'm pretty sure insulting the target of your persuasion is probably one of the least effective methods.

Have you just given up and are now just trying to slam?

[Onderkelkia]

The fact that the leaders of what look like two regions, are rushing to defend a region that isn't Lazarus, on the Lazarus topic thread...Speaks of insecurity and stuff.....

Do you have to refute every little thing said about you, everywhere? When do you sleep?

I've ignored a large amount of rubbish thrown at Balder by our enemies over the past few weeks, particularly where the points made have already been addressed previously. However, I don't propose to let gross factual errors stand unchallenged. You would find most regions would take the same approach.

[Fauxia]

@Onder @Rach will carry the conversation over to the Balder thread.

You can talk about diplomacy, Rach, but I'm not sure you know how it's done, except with obvious political allies, and apparently, userite coupers.

I'm no expert in the field of persuasive arguments, but I'm pretty sure insulting the target of your persuasion is probably one of the least effective methods.

Have you just given up and are now just trying to slam?

I'm trying to persuade Rach?

Gosh, if I cared to do that, Unibot is a raider. Convincing the trio of power in Balder would be a ridiculous task, and I'm not attempting it.

[Killer Kitty]

Convincing the trio of power in Balder would be a ridiculous task, and I'm not attempting it.

So why do you keep whining to Balder every other post? Just to annoy them?

[Vadia]

Wait, did they lose their forum? How did they do that?

[Solorni]

Convincing the trio of power in Balder would be a ridiculous task, and I'm not attempting it.

So why do you keep whining to Balder every other post? Just to annoy them?

To be fair, I do find it distracting... so it is an effective tool to distracting me

[Vadia]

Do you have to refute every little thing said about you, everywhere? When do you sleep?

Perhaps it's because of the current political climate, perhaps it's the utter proliferation of false information on the internet or perhaps its just I dislike it when people hold dangerous misconceptions but I do enjoy correcting mistaken beliefs with facts. I think it is important to do so.

People tell lies about me, the natives, and the resistance all the time. I just know that you can't correct people, because what actually would be listening and understanding, would result in someone feeling pain. This is why people put their fingers in their ears and why you shouldn't argue in the Youtube comments.

Anyone who believes you, believes you. Anyone who doesn't, doesn't.

[Lord Dominator]

Wait, did they lose their forum? How did they do that?

Decided not to use it, locked non-admin stuff I assume

[Vadia]

Wait, did they lose their forum? How did they do that?

Decided not to use it, locked non-admin stuff I assume

So, they claim to be native and "Making Lazarus Great Again".... but they don't have a working forum....

Regions with like six or less active people, have working forums....

[Fauxia]

Convincing the trio of power in Balder would be a ridiculous task, and I'm not attempting it.

So why do you keep whining to Balder every other post? Just to annoy them?

There are other people to point out things to.

Or maybe I am attempting a task I know to be impossible, which is why I'm fudging it. Or I'm, you know, being a politician and arguing when no one will change their opinion, because that's what politicians do, as you more than know

[Farnhamia]

Say what you will about the prominent gameplayers of a few years ago, but when this happened to Lazarus on our watch, we looked past our differences (which were many, and far less shallow than today's differences), we fought it, and eventually it ended. This newer generation can't be bothered.

Or, it's the older gameplayers either in charge or with influence, becoming complacent and just not caring anymore so long as they have their slice of the pie still untouched waiting for them in the fridge so that they can eat it later when the kids are asleep and the husband/wife isn't looking during the commercial break on the way between the back door from whence they just came after bringing out the garbage and the couch where the husband/wife is idly playing candy crush whilst actively ignoring yet another commercial that is 20% drug ad and 80% list of side effects hits so close to home irl ;_;

Anyway.

Personally, I suspect that alot of regions/players want to do something, but are hesitant due to a variety of factors:

• The presence of BC officers plus the way update mechanics for big regions works makes it ridiculously hard to actually liberate something on that scale through "normal" means.
• Balder's continuing defiant support for the griefers in Lazarus puts off several groups that would otherwise be in opposition but are, in some way or another, aligned or allied to Balder and don't want to upset that balance without a prospect of gains.
• In reference to the previous two points, it's obvious that this will require a large collective effort that will inevitably cause some ruckus, but nobody wants to take the first step.
• And finally, the complete and utter rhetorical failing of the Celestial Union last summer made it possible for Funk and the gang to establish the sophistic rhetoric that this is some sort of "defender" fight rather than a "Lazarus" fight, and nobody wants to be seen on the defender side because, apart from the fact that this entire line of rhetoric is incredibly stupid, apparently it's still 2013 and Unibot is actually relevant and oh god no the UDL/FRA/ADN are out to get you (why people still listen to NES, whose GP persona these days seems to be stricken with a severe case of "defender tourettes", is beyond me)

^ My personal opinion. Roast me.

Your characterization of repeated use of "defender" as "defender tourettes" is borderline trolling, not to mention being incorrectly spelled. It's "Tourette's."

[Consular]

Says the Delegate of Balder, the region that, if you make a joke about it, proscribes everyone you've ever talked to unless they have citizenship in Europeia, the LKE, or Balder itself,

A ludicrous misrepresentation, much like the other criticisms of Balder advanced in this thread. If you exclude Nazi and Fascist regions, Balder has proscribed The Order of the Grey Wardens, The South Pacific and The Kingdom of Great Britain, all for committing hostile acts against Balder or our allies. This obviously does not amount to proscribing "everyone [any individual has] ever talked to", and your supposed exemptions are plucked out of thin air. There is no policy granting exemption from our hostile foreign affiliations statute to citizens of the LKE or Europeia. Nor have any such exemptions been granted to citizens of the LKE or Europeia who would otherwise face proscription. The exemptions thus far have been granted to individual TSP citizens.

Remember when I was made PNG for making a joke about TNI? I do, vaguely. Let's not pretend Balder isn't pathetic sometimes.

[Ikania]

a severe case of "defender tourettes"

love ya roav but as someone with tourette's i can tell you that you aren't doing it right until every sentence is FUCKING DEFENDERS FUCKING FUCK

[Vadia]

a severe case of "defender tourettes"

love ya roav but as someone with tourette's i can tell you that you aren't doing it right until every sentence is FUCKING DEFENDERS FUCKING FUCK

I thought Tourette's is when when parts of your brain are fried, so you have little twitches or involuntary behaviors.

[La Navasse]

love ya roav but as someone with tourette's i can tell you that you aren't doing it right until every sentence is FUCKING DEFENDERS FUCKING FUCK

I thought Tourette's is when when parts of your brain are fried, so you have little twitches or involuntary behaviors.

Tourette's, I believe, are simply incessant, involuntary tics. They do not affect your mind, though they could make your physical movements somewhat, but not noticeably, odd. You don't have "parts of your brain fried" in any real disorder - such would likely just result in chronic epilepsy.

In the end, it doesn't affect intellect, and it should not be used in an insulting manner.

[Pierconium]

This is incorrect on several fronts and I do worry where you pick up these misconceptions. Firstly, many of our allies and friends make jokes about Balder. So that notion is ridiculous. Secondly, Balder itself has been on the forefront of several diplomatic achievements and as ranked by one of the harshest Balder critic Unibot was #2 (or very high) when it came to ties and alliances among the GCRs. This is proven through several of our treaties. The GCR Sovereignty accords were first put forward as an idea by Balder. Balder is also one of the founding members of WALL, the extraordinary WA alliance. Additionally Balder has at various times revived and helped developed WALL itself.

Is this bit accurate? I seem to recall it differently.

[Solorni]

This is incorrect on several fronts and I do worry where you pick up these misconceptions. Firstly, many of our allies and friends make jokes about Balder. So that notion is ridiculous. Secondly, Balder itself has been on the forefront of several diplomatic achievements and as ranked by one of the harshest Balder critic Unibot was #2 (or very high) when it came to ties and alliances among the GCRs. This is proven through several of our treaties. The GCR Sovereignty accords were first put forward as an idea by Balder. Balder is also one of the founding members of WALL, the extraordinary WA alliance. Additionally Balder has at various times revived and helped developed WALL itself.

Is this bit accurate? I seem to recall it differently.

The way I recall it is that I suggested it as a type of pancake on the ceiling type of idea and then you did most of the legwork. But I could be wrong!

[Unibot III]

If Unibot was capable of doing anything, I would be the first person to start complaining and going crazy about it, then rushing to do something.

Errr, who are you?

Well, whoever you are go complain and get crazy about it. *thumbs up* RUSH AND DO SOMETHING.

As for why the Dominion coup was different than the NLO coup, I don't actually think there was a huge military difference between NLO/Dominion. If anything the defender forces were more effective in Dominion's case, because they were able to close the endorsement gap to the point where a liberation was viable - the chances of doing that with NLO were unlikely given how much NPO had piled; the NLO situation was a lot more like the Great Bight coup in that sense.

It was really the political dimension of the liberation effort that was different, the CU didn't receive the political support of TNP/TEP/Osiris that the PRL did. I was delegate at the time of the NLO coup and I remember the overwhelming political support that Lazarus received from all quarters then - the democratic GCRs came close to signing a multilateral treaty around the issue of Lazarene state recognition even ("The Thebes Protocol"). I think the main differences between then and now are largely out of the control of the mission organizers: the antagonists of the NLO were NPO, who aren't a geopolitical bloc in the same way that invaders and defenders are - when invaders (LWU) coup something, invaders stick together, when NPO coups something, NPO fights it alone. The Independent Manifesto is also a stronger presence in the minds of policymakers now; democratic solidarity is a tertiary concern where it used to be a primary concern for democratic GCRs - in part because there's so much monarchism now that democratic GCRs don't take the pro-democracy stand they used to, as to not offend allies among the other GCRs.

All in all, I would chalk it up to an admittedly crude structural, rather than technical, difference: this coup is an invader coup and the GCRs, they're pretty invader-ish right now.

[Pierconium]

Is this bit accurate? I seem to recall it differently.

The way I recall it is that I suggested it as a type of pancake on the ceiling type of idea and then you did most of the legwork. But I could be wrong!

I can accept that I guess. I know we discussed it before it was proposed. The general concept of GCR unity and sovereignty has been something I’ve pushed for a very long time. The Union of Sovereigns, which was admittedly more anti-ADN than pro-GCR, was designed as a precursor to this sort of thing in 2004, about 7 years before Balder existed. So I guess I was thinking along those lines.

No worries.

[Gibraltarica]

Unibot's not actually capable of anything but threatening to subvert GCRs and warping history.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Says the Delegate of Balder, the region that, if you make a joke about it, proscribes everyone you've ever talked to unless they have citizenship in Europeia, the LKE, or Balder itself, while, of course, insulting fellow GCRs and regions its supposed to have at least cordial relationships with. You can talk about diplomacy, Rach, but I'm not sure you know how it's done, except with obvious political allies, and apparently, userite coupers.

This is incorrect on several fronts and I do worry where you pick up these misconceptions.

You proscribed literally all TSPers because one of your own soldiers sent me unsolicited forum screenshots proving you supported Hileville's coup ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Solorni]

This is incorrect on several fronts and I do worry where you pick up these misconceptions.

You proscribed literally all TSPers because one of your own soldiers sent me unsolicited forum screenshots proving you supported Hileville's coup ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't have the power to proscribe people, let alone all TSPers.

Also, wasn't that the first and only GCR coup taken because of how corrupt the admins of TSP were?

[Lord Dominator]

Decided not to use it, locked non-admin stuff I assume

So, they claim to be native and "Making Lazarus Great Again".... but they don't have a working forum....

Regions with like six or less active people, have working forums....

See my previous point about the need of forums for regions. I've been in more active regions than Lazarus is at this moment with no forum, or only a cursory forum used like once a year.

[Onderkelkia]

This is incorrect on several fronts and I do worry where you pick up these misconceptions.

You proscribed literally all TSPers because one of your own soldiers sent me unsolicited forum screenshots proving you supported Hileville's coup ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You are wrong to claim that The South Pacific's proscription was exclusively due to the acts of TSP espionage to which you refer. Rather, TSP's involvement in espionage against Balder was but one factor among several others in the decision to proscribe TSP. Our legislature's decision also took into account the actions of TSP members (at all levels of seniority) in spreading scurrilous false allegations against Balder, TSP's repeated breaches of its treaty with Balder in failing to provide notification before attempting to dissolve the treaty, and the controlling influence of the Grey Wardens within TSP's government.

As regards the specific incident you raise, you refused to provide any details about how you obtained the information when challenged and Balder has no reason to trust anything you say in any case. Any foreign power which obtains and uses information gained through unauthorised, unlawful means from Balder will naturally be held accountable for espionage. That is an entirely routine and appropriate response. Insofar as what the information itself showed, your description is also highly misleading. It is a fact hat by the time that Hileville's coup began, Balder forces had re-deployed to support a Europeian miitary mission. The existence of any orders to stay in TSP before the coup occurred is irrelevant when Balder forces had left the region by the time that the coup took place. Balder, alongside The North Pacific, originally deployed to TSP at the request of the lawful delegate in accordance with our treaty.

[Glen-Rhodes]

You are wrong to claim that The South Pacific's proscription was exclusively due to the acts of TSP espionage to which you refer. Rather, TSP's involvement in espionage against Balder was but one factor among several others in the decision to proscribe TSP.

Not to go even farther away from this point of this thread, BUT.... it's interesting to know that if I send you some screenshots of TSP's private forums, I'll be able to say that Balder was involved in espionage against TSP. This is a very convenient way to form a casus belli!