[PASSED] Commend Goobergunchia

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

I don't understand why it's imperative to commend the player, not the nation. The nation of Goobergunchia didn't set up NSwiki: the player did. If you're worried about preserving the fourth wall: sorry, that's already been shattered.

I'd prefer to see them written IC, commending the nation. There hasn't been a ruling on that though so as of now it's perfectly legal to write them OOC commending the player. If the blasted things are going to be written OOC then we may as well see that they're written as well as possible.

[Todd McCloud]

Can I ask you a question though, because it's relevant?

This can be written to commend the nation of Goobergunchia or you, the player. I don't think it's proper or advisable to try to do both. So my question is, do you ICly consider NSWiki to be the work of the Goobergunchian government? Or do you consider it the work of you, the player?

Personally, if I was writing this I would rather commend the nation. That's not a slight against you, the player either. If someone were to commend me I would prefer they commend one of my nations. I would be baffled by the idea of the WA commending me personally. But if NSWiki is the work of the player rather than (ICly) the nation then this probably needs to be written to commend the player.

NSwiki is designed to pertain to anything and everything involving NationStates. This includes RP, Gameplay, Forum 7 memes, you name it. As it's not at all limited to an RP-IC context and a lot of the administrative stuff I do is definitely OOC, the totality of NSwiki is really more of an OOC/RL construct than an IC one.

However, to permit RPed references to NSwiki, I've said before that I consider NSwiki to also exist in the RP-IC Goobergunchia. In this context, NSwiki does exist as a Goobergunchian government project (the "Wiki Project") and is hosted on a big server farm somewhere in the middle of the country. Of course, any RP references to NSwiki would by necessity exclude the non-RP content, as well as much of the meta-discussion on the site.

This has been an OOC post.

Well I suppose it could be written either way then. Thanks.



Todd, if you don't already have me on ignore, how about these for possible texts:

Commending the player

RECOGNIZING Goobergunchia for the creation of NSwiki, a highly informative and detailed account of both in-game and out-of-game incidents, resolutions, national profiles, region profiles, history, and events.

NOTING Goobergunchia's successful drafting and passage of NSUN Resolution #22, a resolution which had prohibited pedophilia.

UNDERSTANDING the various positions Goobergunchia has held throughout his history, including Deputy Secretary of State in the Alliance Defense Network and Secretary of Red Liberty Alliance.

HEREBY commends Goobergunchia in the form of an official commendation by the World Assembly.

Commending the nation

RECOGNIZING the nation of Goobergunchia for the creation of the Wiki Project, a highly informative and detailed account of incidents, resolutions, national profiles, region profiles, history, and events in NationStates.

NOTING the Goobergunchian delegation's successful drafting and passage of NSUN Resolution #22, a resolution which had prohibited pedophilia.

UNDERSTANDING the various positions Goobergunchians have held throughout history, including Deputy Secretary of State in the Alliance Defense Network and Secretary of Red Liberty Alliance.

HEREBY commends Goobergunchia in the form of an official commendation by the World Assembly.

I've decided this will be concerning the player, not the nation. The Commend Kandarin one has the fourth wall broken, and this one will have that as well. As for what you've written, I will edit in some of the changes.

[Quintessence of Dust]

I'd prefer to see them written IC, commending the nation.

Well, I'd prefer them not to exist at all! Personal preference don't seem to have made any headway: [violet] has informed us these changes, which were introduced mainly for the benefit of players who until now scorned WA activity, are here to stay.

There hasn't been a ruling on that though...

Pffft. And we both know there never will be, either.

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

Well, I'd prefer them not to exist at all! Personal preference don't seem to have made any headway: [violet] has informed us these changes, which were introduced mainly for the benefit of players who until now scorned WA activity, are here to stay.

Obviously we'd both prefer if they had never existed, but they do. And as you said, [violet] has vowed that they are here to stay. I'm just looking at ways to improve them, to minimize the damage, because right now I don't have anything better to do.

Pffft. And we both know there never will be, either.

Actually, I think there could be a ruling if we apply enough pressure and yell loud enough to force one. Since this thing started there have been many examples provided of how to write a C&C ICly and not break the fourth wall. They're writing them OOC and breaking the fourth wall now because they can. But it isn't necessary to do that. The same can be accomplished IC and completely within RP conventions, we just need to demand that it is done that way.

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

The Commend Kandarin one has the fourth wall broken, and this one will have that as well.

You say that with such nonchalance, like someone who just drove a tank through another person's house.

"Your house is demolished. I am going to the depot to refuel."

[Todd McCloud]

The Commend Kandarin one has the fourth wall broken, and this one will have that as well.

You say that with such nonchalance, like someone who just drove a tank through another person's house.

"Your house is demolished. I am going to the depot to refuel."

Well, yeah. Sorry.

C&C's almost beg the breaking of the fourth wall. I can't commend the nation of Goob when it's clearly the player which created the wiki, as QoD pointed out.

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

NOTING Goobergunchia's successful drafting and passage of Nation States United Nations (NSUR) Resolution #22, a resolution which had prohibited pedophilia.

What is (NSUR) supposed to stand for? The accepted terminology is UNR #22 or NSUN Resolution #22. And I really don't think it's a good idea to mention the United Nations by name.

UNDERSTANDING the various positions Goobergunchia has held throughout its history, including Deputy Secretary of State in the Alliance Defense Network and Secretary of Red Liberty Alliance.

I thought you were commending the player? Is Goob a "it" now? Should be "...Goobergunchia has held throughout his history..."

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

You might not be able to mention NSWiki directly after all.

[Ardchoille]

You might not be able to mention NSWiki directly after all.

Damn, I thought that post said he could mention NS Wiki, just not link to it in the proposal. What phrasing reads the opposite way? I've been using Goob as an example all over the place, as in, "If we can't commend Goobergunchia for his work on NSWiki, then the C&C rules are too tight". Please post in the other thread so I can, if necessary, edit the sticky.

Re the bitchfest earlier on: I'm going to comment at length on this because there seems to be considerable confusion among many players who are new to WA debates.

ToddMcCloud, the WA has had a tradition of more robust language than, say, General. In part because most of its posts were IC, and if an ambassador's testy, that's just the way he (the character) is. But also because it's assumed that people who are old enough to want to discuss international legislation are also old enough to cope with the occasional non-malicious expletive from other adults. This doesn't mean a player's allowed to abuse another player, but often things said in the heat of debate are let pass.

Which is why I'm not responding to this, a legitimate if mildly sarky comment on the tenor of the debate --

<snip>Make me. And yes, I know, a mod will probably be here shortly to make me ...

-- but am responding to this:

... defiling everything the WA players have spent years contributing to with your abject filth

If that phrase refers to the proposal that this thread is discussing, it goes beyond reasonable condemnation of content. An IC ambassador might possibly be so offended by a proposal that he could legitimately call it "abject filth". But QoD's plainly not IC, because he mentions "players".

If the "your" refers to a collective group, gameplayers, it's trolling. If it refers specifically to the player Todd McCloud, it's flaming. Whichever of the three it is, it's offensive. QoD, warned.

(To make it clear to those unused to these forums, that's not an Official Warning, that's a forum warning.)

This does not mean that players who disapprove of aspects of the new proposal categories will be penalised for saying so (and that applies to raider delegates who dislike Liberation proposals, too).

Criticism is legitimate. I point this out because I have seen players arguing that such comments are flamebait and should automatically be penalised. No, no way. All players have the right to disapprove of and criticise the game operators, provided they observe the rules. They can continue doing so for the rest of their NS lives, if they so wish. They can also argue against those players who disagree with them on that topic -- NS is not, thankfully, OMAC. However, there'll be mod intervention if a player breaks rules by flaming, flamebait, trolling or dragging threads off-topic for such discussion.

[Quintessence of Dust]

Fair enough; though I used the term "filth" (to describe using the WA as a mechanism for OOC back-patting) precisely because I thought doing so was considered too mild to be warnable.

[Ardchoille]

Did you miss this bit?

The "ignore" part of the post is OOC, because it quotes an automatic board reply and refers to moderators, who exist for the WA's characters only in the form of the Secretariat. The subsequent remarks, which concern "foes" whom the poster has put on his ignore list -- ie, the players, not their characters -- are not civil. Hence, warned.

[West Newmanistan]

Actually, I think there could be a ruling if we apply enough pressure and yell loud enough to force one. Since this thing started there have been many examples provided of how to write a C&C ICly and not break the fourth wall. They're writing them OOC and breaking the fourth wall now because they can. But it isn't necessary to do that. The same can be accomplished IC and completely within RP conventions, we just need to demand that it is done that way.

Agree, and this is why I will continue never to endorse a proposal nor vote for a proposal if it reaches queue that breaks the fourth wall.

That said, I wouldn't approve this anyway. Commend just for NSWiki? (and ONE resolution). Nonsense. It is the individual user that makes NSWiki that great tool that it is because of their contributions that they individually submit. Not Goobergunchia's. I need to see more... much more even if it was in-character.

[Sionis Prioratus]

Yes, I was warned, and to this day I carry that on my criminal file :~~~~

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

Damn, I thought that post said he could mention NS Wiki, just not link to it in the proposal.

No, I was saying I didn't think it would be proper to even mention them.

Please post in the other thread so I can, if necessary, edit the sticky.

Umm, which other thread? The new category rules thread?

[Ardchoille]

The thread you quoted from. And I've posted there.

[Todd McCloud]

Anywho,

Unless anyone has any objections to the integrity or style of the commendation, I will submit it once the debacle of the voting for proposals gets fixed.

[Ardchoille]

?Debacle? The rules night be in flux, but I'm not aware of anything stopping players from submitting or approving proposals. Fix up the typo and, as far as I can see, it's good to go.

[Goobergunchia]

?Debacle? The rules night be in flux, but I'm not aware of anything stopping players from submitting or approving proposals. Fix up the typo and, as far as I can see, it's good to go.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9914 - there was a technical problem with approving proposals earlier tonight. Also, a quick note that I was "General Secretary" of the RLA, not "Secretary".'

This has been an OOC post.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Anywho,

Unless anyone has any objections to the integrity or style of the commendation, I will submit it once the debacle of the voting for proposals gets fixed.

After just twelve hours of drafting? Wouldn't you rather wait for the ink to dry, long enough at least for more than two people to comment? (and Goob, who seems to have an awful lot to say for someone who previously said he wouldn't comment)

[Glen-Rhodes]

It is too early to submit it, really. I haven't even made my comments!

RECOGNIZING Goobergunchia for the creation of the first Nation States' wiki, NSwiki, a highly informative and detailed account of both in-game and out-of-game incidents, resolutions, national profiles, region profiles, history, events, and terminology.

Okay. I guess.

NOTING Goobergunchia's successful drafting and passage of Nation States United Nations (NSUR) Resolution #22, a resolution which had prohibited pedophilia.

Why? I thought we were commending Goober for creating NSWiki? Why is getting one resolution passed such a commendable thing? Anyways, I would go in to my speech about how commending people for UN resolutions is stupid and should be illegal, but I think I was overruled by a mod last time I did it.

UNDERSTANDING the various positions Goobergunchia has held throughout history, including Deputy Secretary of State in the Alliance Defense Network and Secretary of Red Liberty Alliance.

I assume these are defender things, and I'm guessing this whole 'defender voting bloc' would like this, but I don't really care for it.

HEREBY commends Goobergunchia in the form of an official commendation by the World Assembly

What other forms are there? :\

[Urgench]

Anywho,

Unless anyone has any objections to the integrity or style of the commendation, I will submit it once the debacle of the voting for proposals gets fixed.

After just twelve hours of drafting? Wouldn't you rather wait for the ink to dry, long enough at least for more than two people to comment? (and Goob, who seems to have an awful lot to say for someone who previously said he wouldn't comment)

Because this has nothing to do with commending Goobergunchia at all and has everything to do with TMcC's expressed intention of smashing the fourth wall to dust.

[Vinoslavia]

After a successful interview with the nation in question, I have drummed up an adequate commendation. But I want to hear what the rest of the council has to say, and any notes of additions or subtractions would be appreciated.

Here is the current draft:

RECOGNIZING Goobergunchia for the creation of the first Nation States' wiki, NSwiki, a highly informative and detailed account of both in-game and out-of-game incidents, resolutions, national profiles, region profiles, history, events, and terminology.

NOTING Goobergunchia's successful drafting and passage of Nation States United Nations (NSUR) Resolution #22, a resolution which had prohibited pedophilia.

UNDERSTANDING the various positions Goobergunchia has held throughout history, including Deputy Secretary of State in the Alliance Defense Network and Secretary of Red Liberty Alliance.

HEREBY commends Goobergunchia in the form of an official commendation by the World Assembly

Here's some links:
Jolt post annoucning the NS wiki opening: http://forums.joltonline.com/showthread.php?t=361994
Story behind WA Resolution #22: http://nswiki.net/index.php?title=Outlaw_Pedophilia


The original draft:

RECOGNIZING the nation of Goobergunchia for the creation of the NationStates' wikipedia, NSwiki, a highly informative and detailed account of both in-game and out-of-game incidents, resolutions, national profiles, region profiles, history, and events.

NOTING the nation's successful drafting and passage of World Assembly Resolution #22, which prohibits pedophilia and remains a beacon of morality since its inclusion.

UNDERSTANDING the various positions the nation has held throughout its history, including Deputy Secretary of State in the Alliance Defense Network and Secretary of Red Liberty Alliance.

HEREBY commends Goobergunchia in the form of an official commendation by the World Assembly

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You are taking the mick?.

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

(NSUR)

OK, I'll ask again. What is this? Do we get to make up our own acronyms now? What would be wrong with saying NSUN Resolution #22?

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

Anywho,

Unless anyone has any objections to the integrity or style of the commendation, I will submit it once the debacle of the voting for proposals gets fixed.

After just twelve hours of drafting? Wouldn't you rather wait for the ink to dry, long enough at least for more than two people to comment? (and Goob, who seems to have an awful lot to say for someone who previously said he wouldn't comment)

Because this has nothing to do with commending Goobergunchia at all and has everything to do with TMcC's expressed intention of smashing the fourth wall to dust.

It's a little late for that because the fourth wall has already been smashed to dust. Perhaps he's trying to grind the dust into micro particles to ensure that the fourth wall can never be erected again?

[Ardchoille]

After just twelve hours of drafting? Wouldn't you rather wait for the ink to dry, long enough at least for more than two people to comment? <snip>

Good point. I hadn't been expecting much drafting to go into C&Cs because the content should be fairly straightforward, the structure's fixed and the whole thing is, in essence, the writer's opinion. But you're right, other people might want to suggest stronger or different arguments, and if there're any queries about the content, it's better discussed now, before it's submitted and can't be changed.

Besides, the SC needs to set its standards high too.

That NSUR does need fixing. I didn't realise it was intentional, I thought it was just a typo for NSUN Resolution #22. We should stick to the existing system of numbering so that there's some consistency across the councils. Plus, "NSUR Resolution #22" means "NationStates Unitednations Resolution Resolution #22".

Urgench, Vinoslavia, on-topic, folks.