NationStates

I find that this new proposal is interesting, however, I must play the devil's advocate on this one. It is not specific enough on what procedures at a minimum each nation shall be required to have in effect and it additionally seems to assume that ALL nations have some form of law and/or procedure in effect regarding this. The lack of specificity is quite unsettling and will lead to the policy not working well. Additionally, it fails to lay out penalties for any nation that fails to comply with it and/or fails to return the individual to their proper nation.

It fails to define exactly what a missing person is. It fails to establish whether or not political refugees are to be considered missing persons. It fails to outline in specific enough terms to avoid an abuse of the system. Essentially if a government wanted to it could claim that Joe Shmoe who is wanted by the government for speaking his mind against their policies and has fled to the nation of Eternity, they could simply declare him a missing person and get him back and execute him for his offenses, if I have read enough into this.

I can NOT in good conscience vote for any non-specific laws that fail to properly define terms and set limitations and boundaries and requirements. I would strongly caution against voting for it and recommend yet another rewrite of this law. I also would caution EVERYONE to read it very carefully, as it would not at all do to have anyone forced into a non-specific system.

Additionally, the law fails to indicate where the funding to enforce it and put it into effect is going to come from, and until I know exactly how much will be needed in order to put it into effect, to enforce it, and how much the taxes on my people will increase due to this law, I can NOT vote for it.

There are too many flaws at this time. Please either rewrite it and/or revise it into yet another new law and remove it from the table, or please find someone else to write it, someone with a legal enough mind to make it specific enough to allow no loopholes and/or other problems.

-President Dracul
Draculanovian Head of State
Founder of Peaceful Democratic Peoples of Earth

Additionally, the statement of Reasonable Policies and Procedures does not cover anything at all in the good side of things, as a dictatorship that is part of the WA is not necessarily going to be reasonable...look at Saddam Houssein and the UN...if this kind of law would have been in effect, he would have had the power to declare any and all of his citizens Missing Persons if they disagreed with him and fled to another nation, and they would have been OBLIGATED under this law to return him. I will continue to vote against it, try to get it repealed, and fight it if it passes and has not been changed in such a manner as I believe to be capable of being found reasonable.

Looks good Ambassador Hall. You have our full support.
excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

This act has my full backing. A way of tracking missing persons is essential in keeping our communities secure. Furthermore, it can also be used to track other important figures, if held hostage or worse. Though lets just hope that some more corrupt nations wont use this act to impose their power or enact clandestine operations against their own people. Thank you.

Sen. Jones Willow

I must vote against. I believe that most nations have laws in effect which largely overlap with this purpose and I am not convinced it will result in more extraditions and convictions of human traffickers and other offenders vis-a-vis the political risk of making a searchable, indexable list of individuals who may or may not have been kidnapped. I agree with previous delegates that this might have an unfortunate collateral effect on asylum seekers or individuals living in countries with a less than sterling civil or political rights record (of which our WA has many).

I can promise everyone who is voting on this particular piece of legislation that if it gets passed, my government will go to having no civil rights and that anyone and everyone who leaves our country will be declared missing persons and the nations that this law will apply to will be required to return them, political refugees or not. While I believe the intentions are good, I will prove the flaws with it if I have to, and none of you will have any choice but to comply with it. Just a heads up to you. I have no intention of allowing this law to pass without it having to be revoked due to the flaws with it, and I will play dirty if I have to in order to prove it. Be quite careful of your actions in passing it.

-President Dracul
Draculanovian Head of State
Founder Peaceful Democratic Peoples of Earth

Draculanovia wrote:I can promise everyone who is voting on this particular piece of legislation that if it gets passed, my government will go to having no civil rights and that anyone and everyone who leaves our country will be declared missing persons and the nations that this law will apply to will be required to return them, political refugees or not. While I believe the intentions are good, I will prove the flaws with it if I have to, and none of you will have any choice but to comply with it. Just a heads up to you. I have no intention of allowing this law to pass without it having to be revoked due to the flaws with it, and I will play dirty if I have to in order to prove it. Be quite careful of your actions in passing it.

-President Dracul
Draculanovian Head of State
Founder Peaceful Democratic Peoples of Earth

You got it backwards there Sparky. The real fun here in the Festering Snakepit is to find the loopholes in legislation and exploit the bejabbers out of them. As a matter of fact many of the fine upstanding nations in my home region...excuse me, but I can't believe that I just said that without snickering..... they have whole government agencies set up to exclusively find the loopholes. My own nation prefers to follow the letter of the law, but pervert the intent if possible. Hey, you have to find some way to make working here in the Festering Snakepit enjoyable on the days the Thessadorian Ambassador doesn't grace us with her presense while wearing a tight t-shirt.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

My government has chosen to vote AGAINST this proposal. The against counter was at 1999 and we wanted to be 2000.

In support of Pres. Dracul and Sen. Sulla, who aim to further register their displeasure through exploitation and over-conformity with this questionable act, we Audiles look forward to locating and expelling all foreign refugees within our borders. Perhaps government sponsored bounty hunting and the resulting population reduction will boost our failing economy.

Audiles wrote:In support of Pres. Dracul and Sen. Sulla, who aim to further register their displeasure through exploitation and over-conformity with this questionable act, we Audiles look forward to locating and expelling all foreign refugees within our borders. Perhaps government sponsored bounty hunting and the resulting population reduction will boost our failing economy.

Actually I'm FOR this fine resolution, Sparky. Hopefully it will make this topic go away if passed.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

Apologies, Sen. Sulla. But we only characterized you as displeased, not as voting against. We, too, look forward to seeing this issue go away. Though we would prefer to see it eliminated through a negative vote, we would be pleased to demonstrate why it may need to come to reconsideration.

The biggest problem I have with this resolution, and there are a great number, is the fact that no procedure has been put in place to give missing individuals the right to stay missing. It appears to be a great intrusion into civil rights and individual freedom as currently worded.

The Matriarchy of Folder Land strongly supports the Missing Individuals act becasue we need to protect our people's!

Friends and Colleagues:

We have a long-standing position that there are a few terms that, when added to any WA Proposals are "Poison Pills" with regards only to our support of them. This Proposal has several, but the three which stand out to us are:

Create: While the purpose of the Proposal is laudable, in this particular matter the WA is behind our nations. We have a strict and comprehensive nation-wide program to deal with abducted or missing persons; we do not restrict these programs to age. We voluntarily assist other national and planet-wide services in such cases, and we prosecute severely anyone even remotely attached to such events. We find on reason for support a duplicative service, but would freely offer our plan for implementation by any nation who should choose to request it. We feel this is a fundamental responsibility of good governance within our realm, yet do not presume to dictate to others how they should address, if they choose, such programs. This is a matter of national sovereignty for us. When the WA proposes to duplicate our present services, we reject those proposals as unnecessary duplication.

Mandate: It is not, to our thinking, the purvue of WA to Mandate such things, when such things are already in place within our realm. That we are "ahead of the curve" pleases us immensely, and reject the necessity of mandating (in it's true form) intervention in our national Justice operations. We particularly cringe when we see unfunded mandates of any type on the part of this august body. While we fully understand and appreciate that ours is a highly advanced Monarchy, and enjoy the benefits which have come to us as a result of this reality, our Law Enforcement and military fully implement and maintain our missing persons programs with great purpose, dedication and amazing ability. In fact, as our programs are much more severe than this proposal "mandates" this proposal, while advantageous to many nations, would require us to take several leaps back. This, we are not willing to do.

Require: As the above may indicate, we maintain our sovereignty, and take as an affront any reference to "requiring" us to amend our superior programs in order to fall into line with what can humbly, and respectfully be referred to as an inferior program for the sake of "Shooting for the Middle Ground", which to us this proposal requires. We continue to propose that requirement of such standards does not benefit our planet, but in fact weakens it.

Then, there is ihis:

Drell-alan wrote:This act has my full backing. A way of tracking missing persons is essential in keeping our communities secure. Furthermore, it can also be used to track other important figures, if held hostage or worse. Though lets just hope that some more corrupt nations wont use this act to impose their power or enact clandestine operations against their own people. Thank you.

Sen. Jones Willow

As if dropped from the Heavens, our point is made complete by this friend. The unrestricted "reach" of this proposal is completely unacceptable to us. While the concern stated is for "corrupt nations", we see this statement as a straw man argument, used to avoid focus on that which precedes it. What "other" uses might such a program inject itself? No, this we would never permit. It is for reasons as this that Merlinus, and by extension that Region which we host (TIDA) require all legislation to be singular in it's focus, and specific in its parameters.

For these reasons, we do vote against this Proposal, in the hopes that a more suitable proposal may be secured by our esteemed body, with the hope that such will be soon forthcoming.

Best Regards, etc.

Merlinus II wrote:Friends and Colleagues:

We have a long-standing position that there are a few terms that, when added to any WA Proposals are "Poison Pills" with regards only to our support of them. This Proposal has several, but the three which stand out to us are:

Create: While the purpose of the Proposal is laudable, in this particular matter the WA is behind our nations. We have a strict and comprehensive nation-wide program to deal with abducted or missing persons; we do not restrict these programs to age. We voluntarily assist other national and planet-wide services in such cases, and we prosecute severely anyone even remotely attached to such events. We find on reason for support a duplicative service, but would freely offer our plan for implementation by any nation who should choose to request it. We feel this is a fundamental responsibility of good governance within our realm, yet do not presume to dictate to others how they should address, if they choose, such programs. This is a matter of national sovereignty for us. When the WA proposes to duplicate our present services, we reject those proposals as unnecessary duplication.

Mandate: It is not, to our thinking, the purvue of WA to Mandate such things, when such things are already in place within our realm. That we are "ahead of the curve" pleases us immensely, and reject the necessity of mandating (in it's true form) intervention in our national Justice operations. We particularly cringe when we see unfunded mandates of any type on the part of this august body. While we fully understand and appreciate that ours is a highly advanced Monarchy, and enjoy the benefits which have come to us as a result of this reality, our Law Enforcement and military fully implement and maintain our missing persons programs with great purpose, dedication and amazing ability. In fact, as our programs are much more severe than this proposal "mandates" this proposal, while advantageous to many nations, would require us to take several leaps back. This, we are not willing to do.

Require: As the above may indicate, we maintain our sovereignty, and take as an affront any reference to "requiring" us to amend our superior programs in order to fall into line with what can humbly, and respectfully be referred to as an inferior program for the sake of "Shooting for the Middle Ground", which to us this proposal requires. We continue to propose that requirement of such standards does not benefit our planet, but in fact weakens it.

Then, there is ihis:

Drell-alan wrote:This act has my full backing. A way of tracking missing persons is essential in keeping our communities secure. Furthermore, it can also be used to track other important figures, if held hostage or worse. Though lets just hope that some more corrupt nations wont use this act to impose their power or enact clandestine operations against their own people. Thank you.

Sen. Jones Willow

As if dropped from the Heavens, our point is made complete by this friend. The unrestricted "reach" of this proposal is completely unacceptable to us. While the concern stated is for "corrupt nations", we see this statement as a straw man argument, used to avoid focus on that which precedes it. What "other" uses might such a program inject itself? No, this we would never permit. It is for reasons as this that Merlinus, and by extension that Region which we host (TIDA) require all legislation to be singular in it's focus, and specific in its parameters.

For these reasons, we do vote against this Proposal, in the hopes that a more suitable proposal may be secured by our esteemed body, with the hope that such will be soon forthcoming.

Best Regards, etc.

Sorry you feel that way Spanky. But this actally is a hell of a lot better than the former resolution on the books, or some of the ones that some of Festering Snakepit's resident screwheads have written. Its not perfect, but its also relatively unobtrusive, natsov friendly, and could serve as a blocker, and make this subject go away....something that I for one would like to see happen. However if it does fail then I suppose there is a small benefit as well. It will keep the screwheads, chowderheads, moonbats, nanny-staters, and other assorted cretins so busy trying to craft misssing person legislation, that they'll not be able to write their other assorted drek and drivel.

Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

I am very happy that this piece of legislation passed. It now means that I can turn my government into a violent and evil dictatorship, log every single person who tries to flee from our barcoded system as a missing person, and force the hands of all WA members into sending them back to me for execution. Thank you so very much for finally giving me the upper hand I need over all you other bleeding heart goody two shoes nations. Muahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaahahahahaha.

-President Dracul
Draculanovian Head of State

Draculanovia wrote:I am very happy that this piece of legislation passed. It now means that I can turn my government into a violent and evil dictatorship, log every single person who tries to flee from our barcoded system as a missing person, and force the hands of all WA members into sending them back to me for execution. Thank you so very much for finally giving me the upper hand I need over all you other bleeding heart goody two shoes nations. Muahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaahahahahaha.

-President Dracul
Draculanovian Head of State

Would you kindly point out which clause states that we have to return any missing people to you or any other nation?

Furthermore, The Rogue Nation of Flibbleites wishes to let all Draculanovian citizens know that should they wish to flee their nation we will grant them asylum.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

Flibbleites wrote:

Draculanovia wrote:I am very happy that this piece of legislation passed. It now means that I can turn my government into a violent and evil dictatorship, log every single person who tries to flee from our barcoded system as a missing person, and force the hands of all WA members into sending them back to me for execution. Thank you so very much for finally giving me the upper hand I need over all you other bleeding heart goody two shoes nations. Muahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaahahahahaha.

-President Dracul
Draculanovian Head of State

Would you kindly point out which clause states that we have to return any missing people to you or any other nation?

Furthermore, The Rogue Nation of Flibbleites wishes to let all Draculanovian citizens know that should they wish to flee their nation we will grant them asylum.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

In fact one of the reasons why our population has risen past 100 million is because we do not let down asylum seekers/defectors who have run away due to injustice. This resolution is well worth the category.

For record-keeping purposes, this resolution passed with 10,118 votes in favor and 2,615 votes against.

The support of the many nations and delegates who voted in favor of this resolution was greatly appreciated, as well as the understanding of my colleagues as I was unable to devote as much time to this debate thread as I would have preferred.

I am hopeful that we can, as an assembly, move past this topic (finally!) and move towards debating other subjects in this chamber.

Yours in thanks,
Nikolas Eberhart
Ambassador for the Doctoral Monkey Feet of Mousebumples
WA Delegate for Monkey Island