PASSED: Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE" (TNEP - Part 2)

[Laos Refugees]

The new condemnation is so weak, and it is so blatantly just a vehicle to smooth the passing of the repeal of SC#3, that I cannot see it standing without attempts of repeal of this condemnation too. In fact, even I am uncomfortable about the circumstances of the passing of this new condemnation.

You were one of the ones that suggested this action, so don't be complaining now.

[Mahaj WA Seat]

The new condemnation is so weak, and it is so blatantly just a vehicle to smooth the passing of the repeal of SC#3, that I cannot see it standing without attempts of repeal of this condemnation too. In fact, even I am uncomfortable about the circumstances of the passing of this new condemnation.

its because of you and JG that this is happening in the first place.

[A mean old man]

it's stupid that it's even allowed in the que again

obviously it doesn't matter what the players want rp rules

...because this is all about RP. I'm definitely a big-time RPer, interested in forcing my evil RPing on the entire world. It's just plain obvious that I've acted like a gameplayer for all these years to conceal my secret RPer soul, hideously corrupted by the tainted influence of RPing. In fact, I often go off alone and RP with myself in private, hiding my dark secret from the rest of the world.

To tell you the complete and undebatable truth, all that we're dealing with here is simply an RPer scheme to bring down gameplayers once and for all. You see, we RPers seek to crush all liberties that gameplayers have ever been given by the Big Bad Moderation Team™ in both the SC and the entire world by passing these two resolutions. When these pass, a vast wormhole will open, rupturing the space-time continuum and sucking all the gameplayers into oblivion for eternity, and we RPers will take this game from the gameplayers who it obviously belongs to in every aspect of its existence.

It's not like many RPers really don't tend to give half a shit about what goes on in the gameplaying world and would rather not hear from it at all. RPers are actually extremely interested in the gameplaying world, and in destroying it forever. Once this repeal passes, our incredible scheme to destroy gameplayers once and for all will finally be complete!

MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

This discussion and resolution has absolutely nothing to do with RP or GP. This is about a problem in the SC regarding a condemnation of an ideology rather than of actual deeds and which must be solved, and which will finally be solved should this final part of the project succeed. Simply attempting to instigate some GP/RP conflict in this debate because you hate roleplaying might as well be considered derailing the thread, and has been an entirely different problem in the SC which has been dealt with multiple times in the past and not by the players debating here, but by the Moderation team, and has been dealth with harshly.

If you can't formulate a coherent or at least somewhat relevant argument against these resolutions, please don't make any up or try to change the topic of the discussion thread.

Oh, and from what the vote totals tell me, the "players" want this.

So I guess it's time to redesign your argument. Entirely.

[Flemingovia]

The new condemnation is so weak, and it is so blatantly just a vehicle to smooth the passing of the repeal of SC#3, that I cannot see it standing without attempts of repeal of this condemnation too. In fact, even I am uncomfortable about the circumstances of the passing of this new condemnation.

You were one of the ones that suggested this action, so don't be complaining now.

Really? What i suggested was this:

Can I suggest that this is the tactic employed by the repealists? Even I would support a repeal of the current Censure resolution #3 if there were a better one in place.

I do not consider the newer condemnation to be a better one.

its because of you and JG that this is happening in the first place.

How dare you ignore the awesome powah of my 100 mythical followers? I only do what they tell me to do. Ic an hea rthei rvoicesi n my head right now. What's that, mother? You want to see the pretty flames dancing tint he nig ht sky? but the doctors said I must not do that any more.

[A mean old man]

Perhaps you could tell me how condeming Nazi Europe inhibits freedom of thought? As far as I can see, the condemnation of Nazi Europe is expressing a disapporval of the region, not inhibiting their freedom of thought, but I guess a 'iron fist' regime in mean old man feels quite justified in inhibiting freedom of expression!!

It isn't expressing a disapproval of the region, it's expressing disapproval of a thought process that the region has adopted. My nation's government also has nothing to do with any of this; the nation is a complete joke, in case you didn't notice from its name.

I guess the real reason for MOM's repeal is because the repeal will keep coming up again. It hasn't occured to him that with the repealing of Res.3, someone will keep submitting a Condemn Nazi Europe proposal, then he will throw a wobbly again at that.

Gee, good thing I already did that myself.

[Warzone Codger]

This is about a problem in the SC regarding a condemnation of an ideology rather than of actual deeds and which must be solved.

Good, you stated the problem. Some of us don't believe it is a problem.

If you can't formulate a coherent or at least somewhat relevant argument against these resolutions, please don't make any up or try to change the topic of the discussion thread.

My argument has always been it's damn fine for the player body to condemn for ideology, if that is what the chooses. I even drafted (alas meta-gaming illegal) resolution that ask this question in no certain terms hoping to "prove" this point.
A certain group of players have a... stubbornness to bring us through 5 repeal attempts though. Until we have this situation now amd you now claim the ground of "people are tired of this"? The SC regulars started this.

Oh, and from what the vote totals tell me, the "players" want this.

Oh how I would love to start another vicious cycle based on the right to ideological condemn

[A mean old man]

Good, you stated the problem. Some of us don't believe it is a problem.

"Some" is the key word here.
Most would disagree with you, based on what I've seen.

My argument has always been it's damn fine for the player body to condemn for ideology, if that is what the chooses. I even drafted (alas meta-gaming illegal) resolution that ask this question in no certain terms hoping to "prove" this point.
A certain group of players have a... stubbornness to bring us through 5 repeal attempts though. Until we have this situation now amd you now claim the ground of "people are tired of this"? The SC regulars started this.

"The SC regulars." Thanks for referring to a "group of players" and implying that you have included me as one of them. No, I did not start this or "bring us through 5 repeal attempts." I watched with disdain the miserable debates on those attempts and noted their many failures, but no, I did not start them.

I started the project we are reviewing right now, and, unlike some of my colleagues whose intentions were good but planning was poor, I did everything in my power to secure its success from the start. So refrain from trying to target me as one of the instigators or continuers of the ongoing NE vs. SC problem.

...and if you think it's fine to condemn an ideology, that's your opinion, and I probably can't change it.

Oh how I would love to start another vicious cycle based on the right to ideological condemn

Well, R4 might get in your way there.

[Metania]

I AM THE LIZARD KING, THE SC REGULARS DO EXACTLY AS I SAY, THEY WILL EITHER HATE OR LIKE THIS REPEAL BASED UPON WHAT MY CURRENT FEELINGS ABOUT IT ARE, ALL PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH ME ARE INSANE

Joking aside, it isn't so much an RP or SCer conspiracy as it is the normal process of making bills and having them at vote. The majority is liable to change its mind, which is why I never answered the silly questions to me about "What does the majority think." If you dislike the strength of the current condemnation of NE, then go make yet another one--the thing we people who wanted this #3 one repealed over was that it was poorly written (much like this sentence, ugh) and representative of a 'Wild West' era of the SC. Any new one is going to be subject to more rules and possibly better quality--so we don't really mind. So by all means, Flemingovia, make your own condemnation of NE--we just wanted to be rid of the poorly written one.

[Kulaloe]

Ambassador Samantha Doogal rose to speak. To her surprise a hand pressed gently on her right shoulder to indicate she should sit back down. She knew who it was even before she turned. "So, Chris, you've decided to speak yourself?" she asked the Grandnarfolio as he stepped past her.

"You're damn right," he replied with a grin. Grandnarfolio Adamson stepped up to the podium and tapped the microphone before speaking. "Honoured delegates of this assembly. It is my hope that this resolution passes. I'm disappointed in the order in which things were done, as it doesn't feel right that the second comdemnation was put through before the repeal, but AMOM might have solved this conundrum. Our nation joined this organization around the time that rule 4 came in place and my impression was that it should have existed all along. All resolutions that were passed before rule 4 that don't comply with it should be repealed, this one being the hardest and most crucial one. I never thought as a person with a small amount of Jewish ancestry that I would be fighting against the condemnation of those who would bear the "Nazi" name or any group that approved of or denied the occurance of the Shoah. (OOC: Even if most of them are just roleplaying.) What the NSDAP of Deutschland did over half a century ago was a travesty; yet it is no reason to condemn all forms of national-socialism. My fellow sentient beings, it is quite easy to hate others for their ideology; but it is quite easier on the conscience to take actions necessary to ensure that we do not allow ourselves to become like the ones we hate. Remember this: The Nazis of the Third Reich themselves condemned others for ideology as well as race. If you all believe that you are better than the Nazis you wish to keep condemned, then you have no choice but to repeal the condemnation of these seperate Nazis who have nothing to do with the Nazis of Deutshland! People of the World Assembly, for the love of whatever you hold sacred, repeal resolution three. My nation's motto is "Unity Through Necessity." I think that it would be in the best interest of this assembly if we all followed that motto in the effort to put an end to this fiasco."

[Chen Oil Incorparated]

Will you stop trying to get us Condemned? We have the right to practice our right-wing ideas!

[Flemingovia]

Will you stop trying to get us Condemned? We have the right to practice our right-wing ideas!

1. err.... This is all about a REPEAL of a condemnation

2. Haven't you heard? You are allowed to have all the right wing views you want, and nobody will condemn you for them. You can have any views at all. They can be happy views, they can be sad views. They can be left wing, right wing, fixed wing, delta wing or on a wing and a prayer. So long as your ideology does not make you take any actions, you will never be condemned for them. Actions are bad and good and can be condemned or commended, The ideologies that prompt you to actions are neutral and cannot. That is Nationstates. Do nothing and you are safe. Practicing right wing views is the problem, and I suggest you immediately edit your post to read

Will you stop trying to get us Condemned? We have the right to hold our right-wing ideas!

In Nationstates holding is fine, because it is inactive. Practicing might just involve action, so it not.

Hope that clears things up for you.

[Echolilia]

Fixed that for you.

At least that's what I foresee, with all due respect to AMOM.

Oh, I foresee a very difficult time in store for anyone who'd like to repeal the newer condemnation of NAZI EUROPE. Let me remind you of the vote totals from each of the two different condemnations:

SC#3
Votes For: 3,412
Votes Against: 1,924

SC#37
Votes For: 4,362
Votes Against: 925

They'll have a hell of a time just bringing a repeal to quorum, let alone trying to pass one. An attempt would be futile and, since, if this repeal passes, the SC is no longer actively condemning an ideology, meaningless.

I think you mistake rationale for reason. Without the ideology bugaboo, some other reason will be found to argue against the remaining condemnation, and marketed to enough delegates to get it to quorum (or if not, linse, rather, repeat ad nauseum). And when a proposal reaches quorum, yes, it is very likely to be voted down, but there's always time for another...it's all free advertisement for NE.

[Flemingovia]

I agree with echo. I think that SC#37 will be repealed because is a weak resolution for two reasons:

1. the grounds for condemnation are weak. The actions cited are either far back in history, or the actions of individual and do not reflect the activity of Nazi Europe at the moment.

2. The rationale for condemnation is weak. This is NOT a condemnation based on actions, really. It is a vehicle/tool for the repeal of SC#3.

I think by now my position is clear. I would not be happy to see Nazis banned from the game on ideological grounds (free speech and all that) but I am very happy to see the international community voice its condemnation of Nazis on ideological grounds - or any other group, for that matter, providing enough WA members felt strongly enough about it to vote. I realise the mods disagree with me, but je m'en fous, that is my position.

I am NOT happy about spurious condemnations "just so that we can get this matter off the SC agenda" (quoting a TG that was sent to me). It may surprise some to learn that I would wholeheartedly support the repeal of SC#37. In fact, I am considering tabling such a repeal myself. I would do so right now except that the bleating classes would accuse me of doing so to scupper the repeal of SC#3. I would not stoop so low.

[Nazis in Space]

Not only should any condemnation of Nazi Europe be repealed, but Nazi Europe should be commended on account of its remarkable success in the field of ethnic minority integration (Laos Refugees, of the yellow race, managed to have one of their own rise to Führer of the region, and that's just the most notable example), religious tolerance (Christian Reich & FascistIran, peacefully sharing the same region) and political liberties (Cool Nazi Hippies). It is my firm belief that Nazi Europe is setting an example - and a most respectable example at that - for tolerance, peace and prosperity in our world, an example, an action that should be recognised as what it is - a better way of life. And this isn't even touching the matter of our impeccable fashion sense (Leather-clad lesbians of the SS, fetching black trenchcoats for the guys).

While I, personally, am rather torn on whether these things are commendable (Except our fashion sense. That one's just perfect), I'm reasonably certain that the WA in general, and the security council in particular will find all of these things to be matters worthy of pursuing and, indeed, supporting.

~ Mecha-Hitler, in writing (Mecha's undergoing maintenance)

[Flemingovia]

IF this is your feeling, then bring the proposal

[Firstaria]

Finally. Voted for.

[JURISDICTIONS]

I voted for it, let this resolution pass... so we can move on to something better!

[Unibot]

I am NOT happy about spurious condemnations "just so that we can get this matter off the SC agenda" (quoting a TG that was sent to me). It may surprise some to learn that I would wholeheartedly support the repeal of SC#37. In fact, I am considering tabling such a repeal myself. I would do so right now except that the bleating classes would accuse me of doing so to scupper the repeal of SC#3. I would not stoop so low.

I just want to see you try to the replace SC#37 with some sort of RL ideology-condemning resolution again, it would be deleted quicker than a pa-- eh, let's just say it would be deleted, probably.

[Flemingovia]

I just want to see you try to the replace SC#37 with some sort of RL ideology-condemning resolution again, it would be deleted quicker than a pa-- eh, let's just say it would be deleted, probably.

I would not be foolish enough to try to replace SC#37 with a different condemnation. That would take a very different sort of security council, one which does not exist.

I am thinking in terms of a simple repeal of SC#37, with nothing in its place.

[Echolilia]

I agree with echo. I think that SC#37 will be repealed because is a weak resolution for two reasons:

You mistake me. I don't believe it will be repealed. I do believe there will be endless attempts.

[Unibot]

I just want to see you try to the replace SC#37 with some sort of RL ideology-condemning resolution again, it would be deleted quicker than a pa-- eh, let's just say it would be deleted, probably.

I would not be foolish enough to try to replace SC#37 with a different condemnation. That would take a very different sort of security council, one which does not exist.

I am thinking in terms of a simple repeal of SC#37, with nothing in its place.

I'd like to see a written repeal for it before I commented.

[All Good People]

In the end, NE will get it's repeal of both condemnations because of the folly of those willing to accept the SC #37 substitute for the real SC #3 condemnation. Congratulations on your manipulation of the SC.

[Wikipoosh]

All this nonsense - just make them illegal as in RL!

[Metania]

I like how the people who don't want SC #3 being repealed potentially are now believing #37 will be repealed imminently, or should be repealed.

Sour grapes much? If you wanted to make illegal ideology bans, then you should have been here back before they were made illegal, then went to town. A bit too late now, considering only SC #3 really got away with it back when.

Also, repealing SC #37 would probably be opposed by Just Guy. Good luck, Flemingovia!

Also, Wikipoosh, doing that would break the 4th rule. No go, sorry.

[Scarsaw]

All this nonsense - just make them illegal as in RL!

Nazism isn't illegal in most places in the world not even neo-nazism is illegal or else public rallies like this would not exist. What is illegal is the actions that these groups often do because of their ideals, but the ideals themselves are not banned in most places...of course, Germany has as tight no-tolerance and so do a few other countries in Europe.

EDIT: in addition, as Metania points out, it breaks the fourth rule and is not allowed.