NationStates

I despise National Socialism. It is as many people who are voting against the repeal say, "an ideology of hate." There are little merits in Eugenics and Totalitarianism; in my opinion. This allows me to understand 100% why people voted for the condemnation in the first place. However, we can't just make it the policy of the WA to look down on these states merely because a majority believes these opinions are wrong. One of the things that make NS so attractive to me (and I began playing today) is the sheer diversity of the political sphere in this game. Because we disagree with something doesn't allow us to have government policy towards it. It is Free Speech. This game is, essentially, built out of this Free Speech; even if the speech is Hate Speech. We must protect all speech and condemn no one for their beliefs. We must set a precedent in our behavior which leads us to protect all speech; lest, one day, the majority condemns our nations for what we believe is right.

Thank you. I will be supporting this Resolution.

Rezaxushan wrote:I despise National Socialism. It is as many people who are voting against the repeal say, "an ideology of hate." There are little merits in Eugenics and Totalitarianism; in my opinion. This allows me to understand 100% why people voted for the condemnation in the first place. However, we can't just make it the policy of the WA to look down on these states merely because a majority believes these opinions are wrong. One of the things that make NS so attractive to me (and I began playing today) is the sheer diversity of the political sphere in this game. Because we disagree with something doesn't allow us to have government policy towards it. It is Free Speech. This game is, essentially, built out of this Free Speech; even if the speech is Hate Speech. We must protect all speech and condemn no one for their beliefs. We must set a precedent in our behavior which leads us to protect all speech; lest, one day, the majority condemns our nations for what we believe is right.

Thank you. I will be supporting this Resolution.

You mean Repeal. Correct?

The Emmerian Unions wrote:

Rezaxushan wrote:I despise National Socialism. It is as many people who are voting against the repeal say, "an ideology of hate." There are little merits in Eugenics and Totalitarianism; in my opinion. This allows me to understand 100% why people voted for the condemnation in the first place. However, we can't just make it the policy of the WA to look down on these states merely because a majority believes these opinions are wrong. One of the things that make NS so attractive to me (and I began playing today) is the sheer diversity of the political sphere in this game. Because we disagree with something doesn't allow us to have government policy towards it. It is Free Speech. This game is, essentially, built out of this Free Speech; even if the speech is Hate Speech. We must protect all speech and condemn no one for their beliefs. We must set a precedent in our behavior which leads us to protect all speech; lest, one day, the majority condemns our nations for what we believe is right.

Thank you. I will be supporting this Resolution.

You mean Repeal. Correct?

I'll be supporting the resolution to repeal the former resolution. lol

Georgetpwn wrote:This repeal resolution is the biggest waste of WA time i've ever seen.
everyone's going to go against it and it proves that you can condemn nazis in SC.

point is, there are no rules for SC resolutions. yell at the mods for that.

Read the whole topic, but the only affermation who really shocked myself is this!!! SERIOUSLY WTH!!!

So, because WA is gonna fail in respecting the rules, WA must not have rules??? If this affermation will became true, i will personally ask everyone to abandon this assembly right now!!!
I belive the repeal failed or the summer vacation too, so if anyone is gonna post it again in September, i will do it.

People who cannot divide RL from NS must be banned from this game right now in my opinion!!! Do you belive if some NS dictator will became a politician someday, we have to start a rebellion because he was mean in his RP???? Same thing here. The fact NAZI exist in NS doesn't mean they storm at night in jewish houses and burn them!!! Condemn someone for RL action or ideology is illegal, and vote aganist this repeal is illegal too under rules point of view!!!

Firstaria wrote:The fact NAZI exist in NS doesn't mean they storm at night in jewish houses and burn them!!!

OOC: Yes and no. I agree that the history of Nazi actions obviously is not relevant in Nationstates. I'm less convinced by the "ah, but just because we call ourselves Nazis doesn't mean we have any relation to RL Nazi ideology". Words have meanings. NS does not have a new languge. And if somebody was to go "actually, my motion to ban guns really bans butter because that's what we call guns in our nation!" I'd roll my eyes at them. And this isn't really that different from what I can see.

Firstaria wrote:I belive the repeal failed or the summer vacation too, so if anyone is gonna post it again in September, i will do it.

Surely by then the admin will have removed it.

C'mon, admin, you can do it! Please?!?

Topid wrote:
C'mon, admin, you can do it! Please?!?

OOC: It wasn't illegal at the time so there are no grounds to. Some people are getting way too reliant on running to teacher whenever something happens that they don't like.

The Holy Word wrote:

Firstaria wrote:The fact NAZI exist in NS doesn't mean they storm at night in jewish houses and burn them!!!

OOC: Yes and no. I agree that the history of Nazi actions obviously is not relevant in Nationstates. I'm less convinced by the "ah, but just because we call ourselves Nazis doesn't mean we have any relation to RL Nazi ideology". Words have meanings. NS does not have a new languge. And if somebody was to go "actually, my motion to ban guns really bans butter because that's what we call guns in our nation!" I'd roll my eyes at them. And this isn't really that different from what I can see.

So why aren't we condemning every nation or person-behind-the-nation for choosing the option to the elections issue that makes their nation (or them) a dictator? Surely we should be doing that! Hitler was a dictator, too! Also, why the fixation on Nazis? There are probably more communist and socialist nations on NationStates. Didn't Stalin kill more people with his Five Year Plans than Hitler did in all of WWII? Not that I'm saying go write up a condemnation for a communist nation; that would just be deleted, since there's a rule against that now.

Also, why are people saying the repeal has failed already? The vote is pretty close, and there's still two days left. Feeder regions haven't even voted yet.

Glen-Rhodes wrote:So why aren't we condemning every nation or person-behind-the-nation for choosing the option to the elections issue that makes their nation (or them) a dictator? Surely we should be doing that! Hitler was a dictator, too! Also, why the fixation on Nazis? There are probably more communist and socialist nations on NationStates. Didn't Stalin kill more people with his Five Year Plans than Hitler did in all of WWII? Not that I'm saying go write up a condemnation for a communist nation; that would just be deleted, since there's a rule against that now.

OOC: Once agan, I support the repeal. I'm just rather tired of people whining. Particuarly considering the standard response when people don't like specific resolutions is "leave the WA or suck it up then". And funnily enough that doesn't seem to be happening here.

On your general point, I personally wouldn't mind if you did do that. I accept the ban on ideological motions, but I'm actually not in favour of it. Anything that increases the level of IC roleplay in the WA & SC is fine by me.

But I'd also expel anyone who makes OOC comments without a tag, so I accept I'm somewhat hardline on this issue.

The Holy Word wrote:OOC: It wasn't illegal at the time so there are no grounds to. Some people are getting way too reliant on running to teacher whenever something happens that they don't like.

Well actually, as far as I know, plenty of illegal resolutions were deleted when the NSUN finally got an established set of rules, even though they weren't illegal at the time of writing. :\

By the way, I've been OOC this entire time, just in case somebody gets confused!

To the WA member nations:

This resolution is not even a matter of rights for my country as I was against the first resolution, but I will be voting "Against" on this one, as will my regional delegate. This subject was brought up for a vote and won...end of story. now less than a week later were wasting more time with this subject! I say it's time we moved on to more important matters...like WAR!

Regards,

Anton Sagdev
Foriegn Relations Minister
Armed Rupublic of Universitana

We should probably set one thing straight: the admins are not going to remove this resolution from the log if the repeal fails. They wouldn't budge for Max Barry Day or any of the other old resolutions with formatting problems; what makes you think they will now? As far as I am aware, attempting to remove resolutions once they have reached voting stage or pass is a coding nightmare (because this game was designed by an author, not a Web designer). Moreover, the early resolutions you cite were only removed because of game mechanics, not for violating any other formatting rules. And they did it during the switchover to Jolt, while the game was offline and they were tending to many other gamecoding issues anyway.

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:We should probably set one thing straight: the admins are not going to remove this resolution from the log if the repeal fails.

There's never any harm in asking. I don't particularly care. As I said, my goal was to get a rule created.

Glen-Rhodes wrote:

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:We should probably set one thing straight: the admins are not going to remove this resolution from the log if the repeal fails.

There's never any harm in asking. I don't particularly care. As I said, my goal was to get a rule created.

Yeah, but the non retroactivity of the rules cannot be applied in the WA. This resolution is a flaw in the perfection of the WA. Why repeal exist??? To erase resolution who have something wrong, like rule breaking or mispelling.

Firstaria wrote:Yeah, but the non retroactivity of the rules cannot be applied in the WA. This resolution is a flaw in the perfection of the WA. Why repeal exist??? To erase resolution who have something wrong, like rule breaking or mispelling.

If the repeal fails, then somebody else can try again. Once this vote ends, I'm headed back to the General Assembly.

I should mention that you can't repeal a resolution just because it broke a rule or something is misspelled. At least, in the GA you can't. :\

Well, in the SC personal opinion counts a lot, so mispelling and rule breaking are for now the only good reasons to repeal a C&C.

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:We should probably set one thing straight: the admins are not going to remove this resolution from the log if the repeal fails. They wouldn't budge for Max Barry Day or any of the other old resolutions with formatting problems; what makes you think they will now?

Umm... the SC is totally different these are special cercumstances. It's getting to the point that we don't agree on anything isn't it...
Ahem...

Ardchoille wrote:Seems to me that if it doesn't pass, there's still enough evident player concern to call [violet] on her promise to get rid of early stuff that's later shown to be wrong

Topid wrote:Umm... the SC is totally different these are special cercumstances [sic].

Well, you are exactly right. The SC is eminently a much more important institution than the GA/UN ever was, and obviously its passed follies are a far larger concern to the admins than the snobby UN and its silly little pretend world. Thanks also for the correction on the response from game staff; I had no idea Ardchoille was an admin...

the repeal will fail that's for sure.
idk if the mods will remove the condemn NAZI EUROPE resolution. they seem silent on the issue.

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:Well, you are exactly right. The SC is eminently a much more important institution than the GA/UN ever was, and obviously its passed follies are a far larger concern to the admins than the snobby UN and its silly little pretend world. Thanks also for the correction on the response from game staff; I had no idea Ardchoille was an admin...

Yeah okay. We get it. Can we stop with these annoyingly snarky remarks, now? Like I told Urgench, playing the victim only means that somebody can play the persecutor.

And Georgetpwn, there are still ~1,000 votes to be cast. There's only a 400 vote difference right now.

I will, most likely, be voting against this resolution. Before everyone jumps on me for "condemning the Nazi ideology," that is not the reason why I am voting against the repeal. I do support region's rights to support whatever ideology they choose, and I believe the original resolution infringed upon that right. However, I believe that regions do deserve a condemnation when they step outside their own boundaries and impose their ideologies upon other regions. From the looks of things over the past few days, Nazi Europe did step outside their own boundaries and did try to do just this in Anarchy and Socialist Utopia. I could be wrong about the situation, but unless someone can coherently explain to me what Nazi Europe was doing taking the delegate seat in that region, my opinion will stand. By doing this, Nazi Europe compromised another region's right to express support for their ideology; voting for this resolution with this current knowledge would make my decision tantamount to hypocritical.

I understand that the original resolution does not address this event (as it happened after the proposal reached quorum), but I honestly do not see another "Condemn NAZI EUROPE" resolution making its way through the pipes if the original is repealed. Nor do I believe the WA needs another 4 day period to discuss this topic which has been all but beaten to death.

Veilyonia wrote:I understand that the original resolution does not address this event (as it happened after the proposal reached quorum), but I honestly do not see another "Condemn NAZI EUROPE" resolution making its way through the pipes if the original is repealed. Nor do I believe the WA needs another 4 day period to discuss this topic which has been all but beaten to death.

This argument has already been given, so I guess I'll just quote my old rebuttal:

And if Equilism was being condemned for ideology-based military missions and I voted to condemn them because they don't like bunny wabbits, that wouldn't make much sense either. I'm sorry, but I have to point out that if you voted for the condemnation, you voted for condemning their ideology. That's what the condemnation was about, not some user that posted an offensive message. That's what the record would show, if there was a permanent record. If you truly believe that that the World Assembly shouldn't condemn on ideological grounds, then support the repeal. You'd be supporting the repeal of an ideological condemnation, not a repeal of a condemnation of those RMB messages or a silly raid.

The Holy Word wrote:OOC: Once agan, I support the repeal. I'm just rather tired of people whining. Particuarly considering the standard response when people don't like specific resolutions is "leave the WA or suck it up then". And funnily enough that doesn't seem to be happening here.

On your general point, I personally wouldn't mind if you did do that. I accept the ban on ideological motions, but I'm actually not in favour of it. Anything that increases the level of IC roleplay in the WA & SC is fine by me.

But I'd also expel anyone who makes OOC comments without a tag, so I accept I'm somewhat hardline on this issue.

Right so you think that C&Cing players for presumed real world associations to their perceived national ideology has anything to do with In Character role play?

You'd be in favour of player's real world prejudices and preferences driving the actions of the SC but you'd expel a player for posting out of character on an out of character action? Oh and don't forget, nothing the SC does is actually in character. Condemning NAZI EUROPE is an out of character attempt at ostracism of a particular group of players on the basis that people don't like them using Nazi iconography and names.

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:

Topid wrote:Umm... the SC is totally different these are special cercumstances [sic].

Well, you are exactly right. The SC is eminently a much more important institution than the GA/UN ever was, and obviously its passed follies are a far larger concern to the admins than the snobby UN and its silly little pretend world. Thanks also for the correction on the response from game staff; I had no idea Ardchoille was an admin...

I'll choose not laugh at respond to that first bit.

But Ard said Vi promised to remove some if they were bad, and she would be a game admin (as you well knew that's what I meant... ).

Veilyonia wrote:I will, most likely, be voting against this resolution. Before everyone jumps on me for "condemning the Nazi ideology," that is not the reason why I am voting against the repeal. I do support region's rights to support whatever ideology they choose, and I believe the original resolution infringed upon that right. However, I believe that regions do deserve a condemnation when they step outside their own boundaries and impose their ideologies upon other regions. From the looks of things over the past few days, Nazi Europe did step outside their own boundaries and did try to do just this in Anarchy and Socialist Utopia. I could be wrong about the situation, but unless someone can coherently explain to me what Nazi Europe was doing taking the delegate seat in that region, my opinion will stand. By doing this, Nazi Europe compromised another region's right to express support for their ideology; voting for this resolution with this current knowledge would make my decision tantamount to hypocritical.

I understand that the original resolution does not address this event (as it happened after the proposal reached quorum), but I honestly do not see another "Condemn NAZI EUROPE" resolution making its way through the pipes if the original is repealed. Nor do I believe the WA needs another 4 day period to discuss this topic which has been all but beaten to death.

In that case, you need to create a resolution that condemns their actions against the region mentioned in your post, all the while ensuring that it doesn't revert to a political witch hunt. The original resolution condemns their ideology as a whole; and that is simply unacceptable.