[PASSED] Liberate Eastern Europe

[Frattastan]

Flobos has posted on EE RMB the following link http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4521/czech.png
Since these telegrams are coherent with what he said, we can assume that all he said is true (considering also information gathered from other sources. Just look at the region ! And CM's arguments for the password-protection are weak or plainly false. For example, in this thread he said he was elected to be the refounder even though in one of the linked telegrams he clearly says that Novobrinsk was chosen to refound).
All the evidence seems to point in this direction. It's the simplest and most coherent explanation, come on.

On the other word, replacement from one active community by attempts to be another is acceptable by me and it's the nations own responsbility to secure it's "their" community that remains in that region.

In short: I have no problem with raiders who try to build actual communities in the regions they take over.I think that's the case here. The question to is since raiding is a legitimate part of the game, what situations do we find it acceptable?

Build actual communities with a password ?

[Unibot]

, but I do feel that it would be a gross miscarriage of justice to convict a delegate of these charges without sufficient evidence that the charges are true.

I'd agree, if this was a condemnation of the delegate. But it isn't.

[Kalibarr]

Unibot, notice the phrase "inter-regional peace and good will".

It's not "intra-regional peace and goodwill".

[Krioval]

, but I do feel that it would be a gross miscarriage of justice to convict a delegate of these charges without sufficient evidence that the charges are true.

I'd agree, if this was a condemnation of the delegate. But it isn't.

I think that a proposal that will almost certainly lead to the removal of a delegate needs stronger evidence than a mere condemnation, since a liberation has direct in-game consequences.

[Unibot]

I'd agree, if this was a condemnation of the delegate. But it isn't.

I think that a proposal that will almost certainly lead to the removal of a delegate needs stronger evidence than a mere condemnation, since a liberation has direct in-game consequences.

Ah, but can we agree that there are natives that have been kicked out of there region, a password is preventing them from moving back.. and there hasn't been any reason for this banning that has been established?

[Unibot]

Unibot, notice the phrase "inter-regional peace and good will".

It's not "intra-regional peace and goodwill".

Where do those refugees go, Kali?

[Zoerb]

Question: If this passes will a bunch of defenders pour in and install Flobos as delegate? Or is everyone going to leave it to the natives (current and kicked out ones) to sort it out? I am willing to support it if they are going to be left alone to sort it out. I have nothing against defenders but this doesnt seem like somthing they should be involved in. I support this because it seems like it will allow them to sort it out better, as anyone with a stake of the region who may have been ejected will be able to return. It can always be repealed if nessesary once they sort it out. If Czech is as inoccent as he claims he should not be so fearfull of this, even if it is a bit intrusive.

[Flobos]

To answer Zoerb's question: I have no intention of taking over the delegate position. I don't even necessarily disagree with Czech Mate's stated goals (although how true they are is a matter of concern). I DO disagree with ejecting lawful residents, crippling the region, and claiming it was a democratic, internal process. That argument loses its validity once the only ones who can represent are those who are either to big to be ejected or agree with the delegate. I've telegrammed the few regions that have been ejected and I was able to find, and asked them, if they return, to endorse Novobrinsk as delegate, and would not like to see, just as you, defenders rushing in to sort things out.

[Zoerb]

To answer Zoerb's question: I have no intention of taking over the delegate position. I don't even necessarily disagree with Czech Mate's stated goals (although how true they are is a matter of concern). I DO disagree with ejecting lawful residents, crippling the region, and claiming it was a democratic, internal process. That argument loses its validity once the only ones who can represent are those who are either to big to be ejected or agree with the delegate. I've telegrammed the few regions that have been ejected and I was able to find, and asked them, if they return, to endorse Novobrinsk as delegate, and would not like to see, just as you, defenders rushing in to sort things out.

Thanks for your response. Unless something major changes I am in support of this.

[Coleopia]

After reading the eastern europe region message board and taking to everyone in the region i have noticed that most of these accusations are complete lies. I have to ask, who here has even seen the other side of the storey? I recommend you take your vote off until you have heard both sides. Then choose with the knowledge of more than what is posted and the opinion of more than the prosecutor.

That is what i did, and i saw that the current delegate is correct and just in what he did. I saw lies, then these lies where further confirmed as lies once i saw the eastern europe message board. I voted against.




Also ejecting lawful residents, this is not true they were ejecting inactive residents, not active ones.

And Frattastan Chez clarified those and nullified their importance.

[Warzone Codger]

On the other word, replacement from one active community by attempts to be another is acceptable by me and it's the nations own responsbility to secure it's "their" community that remains in that region.

In short: I have no problem with raiders who try to build actual communities in the regions they take over.I think that's the case here. The question to is since raiding is a legitimate part of the game, what situations do we find it acceptable?

Build actual communities with a password ?

Hmm, I'm going to be flip-floppy and out of my depth but looking at the situation it further, you might have a point; we've now abstained.

I still stand by the view that taking over regions etc, on principle is legit etc. It's only a problem if there's no way to fight back.

I think my real beef is against the concept of founders, because there is nothing you can do to them. Founders make regions away from the game and make them completely dependent on the whims of one person. They can be a blessing or a curse; I looked at Greece since it was today's featured region and was saddened by what happened, -and there's nothing anyone can do about it-, because the founder betrayed everyone around him.

Passwording isn't a big deal if it weren't for the fact that it's used to do a refounding. Liberations can counter passwording to bring regions up for grabs again. Refounding is the end, and it seems to be bigger problem with the game..

(I think I'll stay out of this now, I don't know what I'm deal with anymore.., founderless regions ftw?)

[Mallorea and Riva]

Folks let's assume that Czech Mate is telling the truth for the moment. If the people he ejected were inactive, then why would he object to removing the password? If the defenders do not involve themselves (as Flobos has stated is fine with him) then they will settle the issue once the password has been removed. The refugees can return, or if they're inactive they will simply rot and disappear.

[Unibot]

Folks let's assume that Czech Mate is telling the truth for the moment. If the people he ejected were inactive, then why would he object to removing the password? If the defenders do not involve themselves (as Flobos has stated is fine with him) then they will settle the issue once the password has been removed. The refugees can return, or if they're inactive they will simply rot and disappear.

Sounds like a simple answer to me. Unless inactivity is such an unpardonable sin?

[Coleopia]

Folks let's assume that Czech Mate is telling the truth for the moment. If the people he ejected were inactive, then why would he object to removing the password? If the defenders do not involve themselves (as Flobos has stated is fine with him) then they will settle the issue once the password has been removed. The refugees can return, or if they're inactive they will simply rot and disappear.

Sounds like a simple answer to me. Unless inactivity is such an unpardonable sin?

The password is there for his reasons, as it said the region is prone to invasion, he has made sure that invasion is impossible. He is in the right here, an those who accuse him are just misinformed.

[Dinkamana]

Sounds like a simple answer to me. Unless inactivity is such an unpardonable sin?

The password is there for his reasons, as it said the region is prone to invasion, he has made sure that invasion is impossible. He is in the right here, an those who accuse him are just misinformed.

But its not prone to the amount of invasion that a password is needed. If Czech is claiming a democracy why is there a password for HIS reasons?

[Omega Mago]

Isn't this part of the game? I thought the whole "political intrigue" and backstabbing was a viable option. If it isn't, which this would seem to support, then why not just take out the ability to password protect a region? In the real world, the "counterpart international organization which shall not be named" can't force the EU or NATO or any other collection of nations to let other nations join them. They could probably toss out their delegate, but they can't force them to let people into their "club".

If they really want a region, they should start a new one, password protect it, and only invite people they trust.

Also, none of this "it isn't fair" or "it was theirs to begin with". If that is the way the world worked, then there would probably be only a handful of gigantic nations.

For the record, I don't think that way Czech Mate did was fair, but as delegate of the region it is his right to do so. If you don't like it, LEAVE THE REGION.

[Southern Bellz]

This is clearly an internal issue for the region, but it seems when some are on the losing side of an internal issue, they hide under the just sounding liberation action to do unjust things. You are going to have to kick natives in a refounding, that isn't being mean or a dictator or anything like that, it is taking steps to address issue in the resolution even. The WASC needs to stop acting like it is its duty to baby everyone in NS.

[Monikian WA Mission]

Alright. After reading this entire thread, I have seen no evidence of anything other than what appears to be an internal conflict. I cannot support "liberating" this region. Indeed the question is who would we be liberating it from?

As for the so-called hacking of this region's external forums, all I can say is that if a root admin is expelled from a region's forum, whatever administrators left should change the root admin password to something which is not hackable--or something that would require a computer a number of years to hack.

Over all I do not think that this is a matter for the Security Council to get involved with. Let regions solve their own problems unless there is concrete proof of them being invaded--we are not the world police and we should not be the world police.

[Dinkamana]

Normally I'd agree that it was an internal issue and not in the SC jurisdiction. But the fact that Czech is using the power the WA gave as a delegate in an inappropriate way turns it into a problem for the WA and SC.

[Pythria]

in an inappropriate way

I suppose anything you disagree with would be deemed inappropriate, right? Too bad I don't have that power, or I would call the entire SC inappropriate.

[Dinkamana]

in an inappropriate way

I suppose anything you disagree with would be deemed inappropriate, right? Too bad I don't have that power, or I would call the entire SC inappropriate.

Using the power granted to you by the WA for what has been to possibly be personal revenge in inappropriate. Now if Czech was putting up a password to protect against raids AND only getting rid of inactive nations then it would be appropriate. The evidence presented by Flobos is firm and he has shown himself trustworthy. Czech argument hasn't shed any light on why he's doing but why we shouldn't.

[Zoerb]

Isn't this part of the game? I thought the whole "political intrigue" and backstabbing was a viable option.

It is an option. So is using the SC. Indeed it says in the FAQ: "In other words, [the world assembly is] a hot-bed of political intrigue and double-dealing."

[Pythria]

Using the power granted to you by the WA for what has been to possibly be personal revenge in inappropriate. Now if Czech was putting up a password to protect against raids AND only getting rid of inactive nations then it would be appropriate.

In your opinion, that is.

[Improving Wordiness]

Czech Mate could just drop the password or make it non-hidden. They could then sort out internal stuggles without involving the rest of NS.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Sounds like a simple answer to me. Unless inactivity is such an unpardonable sin?

The password is there for his reasons, as it said the region is prone to invasion, he has made sure that invasion is impossible. He is in the right here, an those who accuse him are just misinformed.

And who is threatening to invade? If Czech is right and the other nations are inactive then they cannot return. If they are active then they have the right to return. If it IS raided then I have no doubt that there are defenders within this thread who would be willing to help reinstate the natives,and let them battle it out in a fair democratic fight.