[PASSED] Liberate Eastern Europe

[A mean old man]

Where's the unofficial definition written down, again?

Liberate LotL.

Well, isn't that just peachy.

[Topid]

Umm, did else anyone notice that Czech Mate has 5 endorsements in a region of 8 members? So that means there are precisely 2 nations that oppose him. Unless the rest were already ejected, but nobody has listed the banned nations, so there may have been only one or two of these, if actually any at all. Names, please?

Flobos said that CM was a founder of the region and admin on the forum for 6 years, and the draft proposal seemed to imply that two different native factions are trying to re-found the region, but can't agree between each other who will do it. But the majority of natives (if they are natives) seem to be supporting CM's faction. So what this looks like to me is that Flobos is upset because his faction lost out, and he is now turning to outside forces to overturn an internal decision. I could see supporting a Condemnation Proposal listing the other faction's grievances, but liberation just seems inappropriate unless these other allegations can be proven.

I did originally want a list of ejected nations, it was cut here is what we know:
• The Dog Hold
• Wszechslawia
• Poppapdda
• Carestil
• Zilmatov
• Modravia
Unfortunately the list is incomplete, we have know way of gathering all of the names. Btw, you conveniently leave out that three of the non-native have for sure entered the region since the password was in place (which means invited by the griefer). And that all the nations endorsing CM including CM himself are puppets created around the same time (except for RR).

There are no natives supporting CM. There are puppets from some outside force CM asked for help supporting CM. There is no evidence CM ever did anything for the region, more likely it sounds as if he was a troll that got himself banned from the region years ago and he's now decided to get back at them while they were weak. But we can't even prove he was in the region ever before now. And another native from 2004 (Modravia) did not think he was an admin on the forum, his telegram says he believes that account was hacked.

[A mean old man]

[EDIT: @Unibot]

Though I have no respect for the liberation of LotL and do not necessarily subscribe to its definition of "native," I can still find flaws in your argument based on Liberate LotL's definition of the term.

"Native: a nation which takes up residence in a region without the intention of furthering the goals and aims of a foreign force;"

There is no proof whatsoever that Czech Mate is "furthering the goals and aims of a foreign force." In fact, the idea which has been most supported by fact and reason so far is that CM is a former member of the region, and furthering his own aims by destroying the region means he is furthering the aims of a local force. The natives who support the liberation and the single native who does not can be compared to two warring factions in a single nation.

So if we're going with LotL's definition, either the idea that CM is a native or the idea that there is an "unidentified raider group" behind the EE attack has to go. The latter is the least supported in fact, and therefore it is most practical to remove that one.

I do not subscribe to the idea that "native" is a word that must be assigned a single, official definition and that we must all comply with that definition in the future when writing proposals. If we need to define the term repeatedly in future resolutions based on the individual circumstances of the liberation, so be it.

[Unibot]

[EDIT: @Unibot]

Though I have no respect for the liberation of LotL and do not necessarily subscribe to its definition of "native," I can still find flaws in your argument based on Liberate LotL's definition of the term.

"Native: a nation which takes up residence in a region without the intention of furthering the goals and aims of a foreign force;"

There is no proof whatsoever that Czech Mate is "furthering the goals and aims of a foreign force." In fact, the idea which has been most supported by fact and reason so far is that CM is a former member of the region, and furthering his own aims by destroying the region means he is furthering the aims of a local force. The natives who support the liberation and the single native who does not can be compared to two warring factions in a single nation.

So if we're going with LotL's definition, either the idea that CM is a native or the idea that there is an "unidentified raider group" behind the EE attack has to go. The latter is the least supported in fact, and therefore it is most practical to remove that one.

I do not subscribe to the idea that "native" is a word that must be assigned a single, official definition and that we must all comply with that definition in the future when writing proposals. If we need to define the term repeatedly in future resolutions based on the individual circumstances of the liberation, so be it.

Having a definition would be helpful, AMOM, and LotL's definition was a stroke of brilliance by people who are actually in the Gameplay field and throw around these terms in practical use -- I didn't make the definition, AMOM, that's not peachy at all. We need a clear diction, AMOM. If that argument you just used is true, Czech Mate is neither a raider nor a "non-native", but a vengeful native that is threatening the region sovereignty for his own vengeance -- civil disputes have no precedent in the World Assembly yet, so you're going to need to really substantiate this part of the proposal -- at the moment, the current draft is trying to pretend this is like any ol' liberation.

I did find this little gem to use as precedent from *gasp* the worst resolution evar!

Further Believing that the World Assembly has entrusted the Security Council with the solemn task of enabling regional sovereignty while regulating such unruly delegates;

If you can explain why this delegate is abusing his powers, and why a liberation is necessary to enable regional sovereignty.. then you've got a precedent to slide this one through with the help of a little elbow grease and butter. The World Assembly has to regulate delegates who abuse the powers that the World Assembly provides them.

[Kalibarr]

I'm sorry but the WA has no business dealing with internal conflicts, if the natives want to fight it out, let them fight it out. The WA isn't the world police.

If a native using a password in an internal struggle is not a legitimate use of a password, then passwords should be eliminated.

[Militant Chauvinism]

I did originally want a list of ejected nations, it was cut here is what we know:

Thanks, it's useful to have that for an investigation, maybe some of those guys could clear things up.

Btw, you conveniently leave out that three of the non-native have for sure entered the region since the password was in place (which means invited by the griefer).

Actually I checked earlier and noticed that all those nations moved in from East Europe, and this is what the regional happenings there still says:

# 2 days, 8 hours ago: FlagThe Disputed Territories of Zubr Pivo departed this region for Eastern Europe.
# 3 days, 9 hours ago: FlagThe Kingdom of Miklos Horthy departed this region for Eastern Europe.
# 11 days ago: FlagThe Disputed Territories of Zubr Pivo arrived from Eastern Europe.
# 12 days ago: FlagThe Kingdom of Miklos Horthy arrived from Eastern Europe.
# 12 days ago: FlagThe Kingdom of Houseilvania arrived from Eastern Europe.

So these nations had all already been in Eastern Europe, presumably moved out temporarily in a refounding attempt, then moved back in after the refounding was aborted (possibly because the Flobos faction wouldn't go along with it). They are probably in the pro-Czech faction since, 1) they went along with the refounding effort and 2) he gave them the password to get back in. So it's possible the ejections were just clearing inactive nations, as is typical in refounding situations. Seems like typical internal conflict/drama to me.

[Sedgistan]

Seems like typical internal conflict/drama to me.

For a nation with 20 million population, you seem to know a lot about internal conflict. Any chance you're a puppet of one of the invaders in Eastern Europe?

Also, if Czech Mate is a former native of Eastern Europe, why not revive his old nation which used to be a member? Why delete the contents of the forum? Why deny the definite natives (Flobos and Novobrinsk) the password? Why eject nations against their will? Why force a re-found? Why would he invite along several similarly anonymous WA puppets to help him, when he could just get the natives to support him?

[Topid]

These WA natives all just happen to be new nations in a region that hasn't been recruiting? A large group of new nations just decided Eastern Europe was right for them? No. These are puppets. We do not know who holds the strings to these puppets, and that is how you know they are not natives, all the natives have not been active or have had the opportunity to say 'that's my nation!'. They have not. A native would have no reason to pretend they are not the nations in question, a non-native has every reason to. They've known this resolution was coming, that is why there was a raider version of this proposal submitted recently in the hopes that it would harm this one. The identities are being hidden for whatever reason, most likely in the hopes that this resolution would be defeated.

This resolution moves forward, due to time constraints I'm having difficulty finding a time when I will have an opportunity to campaign for this for a week or so... Other than tonight. Not final but most likely this will be submitted tonight in a couple hours.

EDIT: @Uni Yes, I agree your definition of native is most correct, but it is also disputed by some. I don't see a reason to use it when I am confident loyal native is more accepted.

[Unibot]

EDIT: @Uni Yes, I agree your definition of native is most correct, but it is also disputed by some. I don't see a reason to use it when I am confident loyal native is more accepted.

"Loyal native" is way more contestable, think about it, what defines "loyal".. are we not allowed some reasonable amount of dissidence from the "general will" of the natives? Have we no respect for minority's rights?

if the natives want to fight it out, let them fight it out. The WA isn't the world police.

It depends, the World Assembly still has to make sure that people aren't abusing the power that the World Assembly gives to others... by merely a discoursed disagreement, you don't involve the World Assembly, but as soon as you start banning people and putting up a password, you involve the World Assembly in your proceedings because you used the World Assembly's system to gain an advantage over your opponents.

[Topid]

Alright, alright, I removed loyal. I do think more people will complain about that, but, I don't think they'll be as loud as Unibot.

Still planning to submit.

[Flobos]

Flobos said that CM was a founder of the region and admin on the forum for 6 years

No, I said he was a founder of the forums and was banned six years ago, but still has a root password (since he was a founder of the forums, not the region).

and the draft proposal seemed to imply that two different native factions are trying to re-found the region, but can't agree between each other who will do it. But the majority of natives (if they are natives) seem to be supporting CM's faction. So what this looks like to me is that Flobos is upset because his faction lost out, and he is now turning to outside forces to overturn an internal decision. I could see supporting a Condemnation Proposal listing the other faction's grievances, but liberation just seems inappropriate unless these other allegations can be proven.

The refounding was bi-lateral. CM asked to refound, I agreed, and we chose Novobrinsk as refounder. After I asked him to hand over the delegate-ship to Novobrinsk so that only he would know the regional password, he ceased all communications, several nations that had been kicked returned and immediately endorsed him. That's when he made changes to the regional flag/description, and presumably when he took down all content on the forums.
Furthermore, I don't have a faction. I'm simply willing to talk to the security council. If you want clarification, ask CM what's been going on lately. I'm pretty sure he won't respond, but you're welcome to ask. I did not originate the idea of liberation, it was suggested to me. I had no part in writing it, aside from supplying my side of the story to those who asked. If that is somehow me turning to outside forces, then I apologize for cooperating and promise to never do so again.

[Topid]

You've done nothing wrong, mostly what is occurring in this thread is people are being confused by CM's smart strategy, and a couple people here will just always back raiders or anyone that might be a raider because they like raiders.

You tried to work it out before responding to Sedge's question about whether a liberation was needed, that is great! A lot of liberation target natives haven't been active enough to do that.

And, unrelated to the above, submitted. Campaigning now and for the rest of the night... I hope to check in regularly but I usually forget to...

[Unibot]

You've got my support, Topi. Watch out for the usual stompers, they've been actively lately.

[Blue Wolf II]

For a nation with 20 million population, you seem to know a lot about internal conflict. Any chance you're a puppet of one of the invaders in Eastern Europe?

Ack, Defenders. Anyone who disagrees with them is automatically labeled an "invader".

[Darkesia]

For a nation with 20 million population, you seem to know a lot about internal conflict. Any chance you're a puppet of one of the invaders in Eastern Europe?

Ack, Defenders. Anyone who disagrees with them is automatically labeled an "invader".

An "invader puppet."

[Ballotonia]

In Gameplay, anyone posting anything will automatically be suspecting of having a hidden agenda. That's cause most often there is one And thus this reasoning also applies to Liberations in the SC.

Kudos to Topid and Sedge to figuring this all out, who's who and all that jazz. You have my support.

As for the definition of 'native'. There used to be one, although it came with a bag full of vague and difficult to find rulings setting all sorts of precedents. It was proven to be unworkable, and has hence been ditched entirely. The SC may now use any definition it chooses in its proposal-writing and deliberations, they're all non-official (even if sneaked into a Liberation resolution, since that's not legislation like in the WA). Personally I do not regard anyone who's been gone for years to be a native again the moment that nation returns. Part of the equation is divining a nation's intention, and that's never a game with 100% certainty. I regard this case to be sufficiently close enough to call.

Ballotonia

[Darkesia]

Personally I do not regard anyone who's been gone for years to be a native again the moment that nation returns. Part of the equation is divining a nation's intention, and that's never a game with 100% certainty. I regard this case to be sufficiently close enough to call.

Ballotonia

Interestingly, the system put in place to do away with the need for an argument of who is "native" and who isn't (influence), accepts a nation as native the minute it returns to life and the region. Influence is preserved when a nation CTEs.

Just because devaders find it convenient to start arguments over defining "native" to include reading the mind of the player behind a nation, doesn't make it logical or moral or even good gameplay.

[Flobos]

Interestingly, the system put in place to do away with the need for an argument of who is "native" and who isn't (influence), accepts a nation as native the minute it returns to life and the region. Influence is preserved when a nation CTEs.

Just because devaders find it convenient to start arguments over defining "native" to include reading the mind of the player behind a nation, doesn't make it logical or moral or even good gameplay.

Interestingly, just because a person once had a nation within a region, that does not qualify any other nations he creates as natives. Czech Mate did not come back with a high amount of influence, the player behind him merely created a new nation to infiltrate the region. If you wish to argue that that is, somehow, still a native, I'd like to ask why he cannot recreate his old nation and simply use that, if his intentions are truly in the interest of the region.

[Frattastan]

(from the WFE of Eastern Europe)

For those of you directed here from the recent Security Council Proposal, please be advised that this proposal was created by foreign, interventionist forces

Topid described as a foreign, interventionist force ? That's just bad propaganda.
If he was saying the truth, Czech Mate would come here to defend himself.

(from the RMB of Eastern Europe, Czech Mate)

Wow, and I thought maybe I was just being paranoid before, but... Wow... I will be withdrawing all of my endorsements temporarily, please do not take this as a personal offense until we get things sorted out. I tend to concur with Flobos that the region may be due for new elections, however it's tough to hold these when the region is practically under martial law. I'm wondering if some kind of trial is in order?...

Martial law ?

From what I can see, the proposal clearly states the truth.
The Liberation proposal by Independent Vojvodina was purposefully deceptive and bad-written.
Some nations, who subsequently endorsed CM, joined the region after the password protection was imposed.
etc. etc. (all these things have already been said and they definitely seem to be true, so I won't continue).

Hope this will reach the quorum.

[Sedgistan]

(from the RMB of Eastern Europe, Czech Mate)

Wow, and I thought maybe I was just being paranoid before, but... Wow... I will be withdrawing all of my endorsements temporarily, please do not take this as a personal offense until we get things sorted out. I tend to concur with Flobos that the region may be due for new elections, however it's tough to hold these when the region is practically under martial law. I'm wondering if some kind of trial is in order?...

That was actually Czech Mate referring to Romani Romania after that nation had just ejected a load of the residents of Eastern Europe. Czech Mate was pretending that he was not involved with that, and went on to eject a few puppets which he claimed were invaders helping Romani Romania.

Of course, Romani Romania then came back to the region and is endorsing Czech Mate, so no-one should be fooled by that act...

[Topid]

Well, so far this resolution has already got the regions flag back, since CM put it back up in the hopes no one would notice he took it down.

Yes the RMB reads very interesting, 'OMG RR is ejecting natives! Such a bad guy!' *becomes delegate* eject eject eject...

[Kalibarr]

Interestingly, the system put in place to do away with the need for an argument of who is "native" and who isn't (influence), accepts a nation as native the minute it returns to life and the region. Influence is preserved when a nation CTEs.

Just because devaders find it convenient to start arguments over defining "native" to include reading the mind of the player behind a nation, doesn't make it logical or moral or even good gameplay.

Interestingly, just because a person once had a nation within a region, that does not qualify any other nations he creates as natives. Czech Mate did not come back with a high amount of influence, the player behind him merely created a new nation to infiltrate the region. If you wish to argue that that is, somehow, still a native, I'd like to ask why he cannot recreate his old nation and simply use that, if his intentions are truly in the interest of the region.

The player behind the nation is the native, not the nation it's self. It wouldn't matter if a native switched nations around he'd still be a native.

[Darkesia]

The player behind the nation is the native, not the nation it's self. It wouldn't matter if a native switched nations around he'd still be a native.

I think that might only apply in the feeder communities, Kalibarr. Feeder off-sites have de-coupled from the game. It hardly matters if players have a nation in the region any longer. So a "native" is deemed a "native" by his or her contributions to the community rather than by where some specific nation they own is located. However, it might also be true of large raid/defend communities where personalities are well known and nations are disposable.

My discussion of the whole "native" argument didn't actually have anything to do with this proposal. I haven't read it. *gasp* Remember, I'm the loony that refuses to accept cheating, even when it's sanctioned by the game's creator.

I have read the arguments made in the thread (if they fit on one screen) and wanted to point out that the "native" argument is moot now that influence declares revived nations to be native by restoring their influence.

[Topid]

So a "native" is deemed a "native" by his or her contributions to the community rather than by where some specific nation they own is located.

No one knows of anything this guy has done for the community anyway...

[Unibot]

So a "native" is deemed a "native" by his or her contributions to the community rather than by where some specific nation they own is located

Here's a scenario, a Macedon puppet sits in the region for two years, it doesn't say a word, or interacts with anyone, it just sits in the region to build 'influence', so it can assume power with a crash and lock job. If we follow by the philosophy of 'influence', that Macedonian puppet is a native. Do you support that idea, Dark?