PASSED: Condemn NAZI EUROPE

[Aundotutunagir]

"It's odd, Ambassador, that you're unfamiliar with the idea of National Socialism yet know about the swastika's religious significance as well as having at least a modest knowledge of the German language."

As the flames continue to engulf the Security Council chambers (because Antonius only extinguished the flaming swastika and not all of the other fires which the swastika had ignited), Hiriaurtung Arororugul pauses to speak with the ambassador from Absolvability on his way to the nearest fire exit.

"How so, Ambassador? My culture is well acquainted with the swastika as a religious symbol and I speak a smattering of German as well as smatterings of other languages. There are Germans where I come from, you know? As for National socialism, it is a new concept to me, but one which I find exhilarating. I can hardly wait to brief my government on it. Also, in regards to my outburst in German while hailing the swastika, it just seemed like the thing to do. Many of the nations of NAZI EUROPE seem to be Germanic in character so it was...a show of solidarity, so to speak."

"I'm sorry but I really must be going now. This structure is about to become fully involved and I would urge you to leave as well. Guten Tag, Ambassador."

[Georgetpwn]

i vote FOR.
the region deserves the condemnation for their horrible agenda

[Veilyonia]

With that ideology we would need to condemn every region with the name "NAZI" in it. That is an impossible feat. And what do we do with regions like "Axis"?

I'm not saying that we need to, as that would be an absolute waste of time (I highly doubt any would make to quorum either). However, since this resolution has made it to the vote, it is in the eyes of the entire NationStates community. Whether we pass or reject this legislation, we send a huge message to the rest of the community, not just about tolerating the Nazi ideology, but about genocide, and ruthless killing. The reason NAZI EUROPE is the region being condemned is the fact that they are large in numbers, and have been endorsing these beliefs since (nearly) the beginning of NationStates.

[Codnavscar]

Since nationstates does not force nations to remain in a region if they choose not too. Therefore, it is obvious that the views of NAZI EUROPE are not weak. Condemnation of the region will not change anything. It will however promote their ideology by giving them publicity. They will most likely start a new region if they are condemned and the publicity they receive will only bring others to their region that support their ideology. Therefore this condemnation will do exactly the opposite of what you want it to do.

[Far-Tortuga]

Far-Tortuga has already made its opposition to this resolution clear elsewhere. We find this a frivolous, ineffectual, weakly worded resolution that is passing only because the author happened to pick one of those targets that everyone can oppose without having to really know or do anything.

[Codnavscar]

DIRECTLY FROM RULES OF PROPOSALS: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18

[Types Of Violations:

o Ideological Bans

Okay, so you hate capitalism. That's nice, but you can't ban it. Just like you can't ban communism, socialism, democracy, dictatorships, conservatives, liberals, Christians, atheist, or any other political, religious, or economic ideology. While it should go without saying, this is up to the Game Moderator's discretion. You may consider the banning of slavery an oppression of your "economic ideology", we do not.]

Nazism is just a form of government known as National Socialism.

National Socialism is a political term. As the name suggests, features of nationalism and socialism are combined and interrelated to form an overall National Socialist ideology, although the combination process is neither obvious nor straightforward. The term most typically refers to Nazism, which was the ideology of the German Nazi Party. As a generic concept, National Socialism opposes capitalism, communism, international socialism and liberalism.

THIS PROPOSAL IS AGAINST THE RULES OF THE GAME!

[Skeelzania]

Unfortunately, its become fairly well established that the Rules for the World Assembly are actually just Rules for the General Assembly, and don't entirely apply here. I think the sentiment behind the legalistic argument is true, however: the Nazis (OOC at least in NS) have really done little that is outright condemnable. Jackassery should not a condemnable offense. If they have done anything heinous, this resolution certainly fails to present it.

OOC: Ah, forgot to switch to Far-Tortuga, my bad.

[Absolvability]

OOC. Aundotutunagir exists in the same universe as Urgench, it shares the real world's history up untill the 15th century when it then diverges quite radically, the swastika and the German language both exist in Aun and Urg's world but they have none of the history of those things in in the real world since the 15th century. Urgench even has a large German minority on it western frontier which includes Silesia and east Moravia, and some german speaking Polish provinces. There's also a large Aundotutunagirian minority in Urgench, they've escaped the lunatical regime which rules that state.

OOC: That's certainly interesting, and as an RPer (though I don't participate in it all that much here,) I can appreciate the concept and all that. However, while I do like to make my Ambassador privy to large amounts of knowledge, I can't really assume he would know all of that. Therefore the confusion created by Aun's display was genuine, if ill-founded. I haven't delved into the history of my own nation much, because I enjoy the political aspects of this game more than the RP. I RP elsewhere. While I appreciate what others have created, it seems detrimental to debate to have an Ambassador with access to only the 'good' history of the swastika, Germans, or National Socialism. Likewise, I could easily say that Absolvability exists in a 'world' that only has one universe and (for my Ambassador and other likeminded individuals,) render the entire conversation null and void. Of course, I'm not accusing Aun of fabricating details of his RP for the sake of his arguement, because I can see the longevity and consistancy of your RPed world-- I'm just saying it isn't very productive. And it gets a little weird when the swastika is used by the Aun delegation the way Nazis used them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Antonius wasn't real concerned with the various small fires scattered throughout the room, feeding on papers until they'd reach such heat as to collect furniture with their greed as well. The source had been handled, and he could only assume that the assembled delegates could handle their personal areas.-

"I am also aware of the religious significance the swastika has had for many religions throughout history... possibly none greater than for the Jews, who were especially hated by the Nazi Germans at a certain period in our own history. It seems to me, though I am no historian, that the Nazis decided to use the swastika as their own symbol for the symbolism of it... that is to say the irony of it... and a harsh slap to the collective Jewish face.

Of course, I don't suppose the symbol should carry around this stigma forever, but in this particular context it seems to have an intentionally provocative purpose.

Naturally, I can't expect you to know the history of my world any more than I know the history of yours... but, one should consider the historical facts of the world in which the Condemned lives to be pertinent."

-Contrary to his previous thoughts, it seemed as though the fires were indeed getting out of control. Antonius turned to follow the Aundotutunagirian Ambassador out.

"Auf weidersehn," Antonius replied, and turned to part company.-

[Daynor]

I voted for this a while ago, but I wasn't set on it.

But after watching the region in question's RMB, I am certainly for. The comment about Jews and a Bulldozer, and the queer comment, sold me.

(Although currently the Ambassador setting fires within our chamber may be a bigger threat than this region.)

[Greater Americania]

All you need to know is that National Socialism is that in a Nazi state, individuals are regarded by the government as tools, and those who oppose are killed. In addition, due to Nazi racial ideology, 13 million innocent civilians were killed in a crime against humanity.

That is National Socialism.

Try again. 6 million were killed by National Socialists. 100 million were killed by Communists. It's funny how Nazism is so much more condemned that Communism. It's just societal engineering.

[Greater Americania]

The Nationalist Federation of Greater Americania opposes this resolution as it is the leader of the Nationalist Union, which is an ally region of NAZI EUROPE.

[Imperialist Reich]

Well, at least all the Nazi nations are grouped up in one area instead of the world are they. At least they are together and not spreading the word of Nazi ideas to us, then I am fine with them here. If they spread the Nazi ideas to us (nations that are not in Nazi Europe) then I would not wish to have them in nation states.

Have they literally said to a nation in particular on the Nazi ideas?v Has it hurt them or does it seem racists?

[Veilyonia]

DIRECTLY FROM RULES OF PROPOSALS: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18

[Types Of Violations:

o Ideological Bans

Okay, so you hate capitalism. That's nice, but you can't ban it. Just like you can't ban communism, socialism, democracy, dictatorships, conservatives, liberals, Christians, atheist, or any other political, religious, or economic ideology. While it should go without saying, this is up to the Game Moderator's discretion. You may consider the banning of slavery an oppression of your "economic ideology", we do not.]

Nazism is just a form of government known as National Socialism.

National Socialism is a political term. As the name suggests, features of nationalism and socialism are combined and interrelated to form an overall National Socialist ideology, although the combination process is neither obvious nor straightforward. The term most typically refers to Nazism, which was the ideology of the German Nazi Party. As a generic concept, National Socialism opposes capitalism, communism, international socialism and liberalism.

THIS PROPOSAL IS AGAINST THE RULES OF THE GAME!

This proposal is hardly against the rules of the game. This resolution does not intend to "ban" National Socialism by any means, it is merely discouraging NAZI EUROPE from embracing the ideology, which also stands for genocide, discrimination, and other values that the World Assembly has already discouraged through resolutions (i.e. #38 Convention Against Genocide.) In addition, I could ban abortion, but that would not ban the ideology behind it. This is exactly what is happening in this case, excpet we are, by no means trying to ban the Nazi ideology.

You also stated earlier that a condemnation would support their ideology. The exact same argument was posed against Macedon duing their condemnation, which was passed. Since that time, very little has changed in the region. Even if passing this resolution did draw more people to the Nazi ideology, voting it down would most likely do just the same. The fact that this is already at vote means that they have their moment in the "spotlight," regardless of the decision.

In addition, the posts on NAZI EUROPE's RMB have shown us that they are not in support of just the Nazi political party, as they have tried to claim, but also the genocide behind it.

[Seculartopia]

Dont condem a region just because it has "NAZI" in its name and supports socialism. Nazi Europe may not follow Exactly what RL Nazis did.

[Grays Harbor]

The Kingdom finds it quite amusing that the WA Delegate for nazi Europe has voted in favour of the resolution condemning their region.

The prevailing opinion of my region is to vote against it, which I am inclined to do, as we find blanket condemnations of regions because of their ideology, no matter how misguided, to be in poor taste.

[Ardchoille]

DIRECTLY FROM RULES OF PROPOSALS: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18

[Types Of Violations:

o Ideological Bans <snip>


THIS PROPOSAL IS AGAINST THE RULES OF THE GAME!

No, it's not. A Condemnation is not an ideological ban. Condemning an ideology just means the SC collectively disapproves of that ideology, not that it bans it (in any case, it doesn't have the power to do so).

For those basing their arguments on the actions of the group known as "Nazis" in the imaginary "Real World", please note that these actions didn't occur in NationStates. The "ideology" referred to in the proposal logically has to be the ideology of the nations in the region that is being condemned. It's regrettable that the proposer has not yet posted an explanation giving particular instances of that ideology in operation in NationStates, and therefore members are having trouble understanding why it deserves condemnation. Lacking such information, ambassadors should do their own research by a quick check on the region in question or a search of member nations' publicly available statements.

BTW, if you're responding IC to events in the Chamber, don't forget that your posts should still contain some reference -- IC or in an OOC addendum, as you choose -- to the debate on the actual proposal.

_____________________________

IC: Walter Arbuthnot, prudently opening an umbrella, signals to the Gnomes to turn on the sprinklers, muttering, "The next Condemnation should go to the Building Management. You'd think they'd have the damn things on automatic."

[Codnavscar]

The Kingdom finds it quite amusing that the WA Delegate for nazi Europe has voted in favour of the resolution condemning their region.

The prevailing opinion of my region is to vote against it, which I am inclined to do, as we find blanket condemnations of regions because of their ideology, no matter how misguided, to be in poor taste.

the reason that the WA Delegate for this region voted for the condemnation is because he likes the publicity. Now everyone on nationstates that supports National Socialism is more likley to join with NAZI EUROPE.

[Daynor]

The Kingdom finds it quite amusing that the WA Delegate for nazi Europe has voted in favour of the resolution condemning their region.

The prevailing opinion of my region is to vote against it, which I am inclined to do, as we find blanket condemnations of regions because of their ideology, no matter how misguided, to be in poor taste.

the reason that the WA Delegate for this region voted for the condemnation is because he likes the publicity. Now everyone on nationstates that supports National Socialism is more likley to join with NAZI EUROPE.

That arguement can and will be used against every condemnation of a region. Just as it was in the case of Macedon, it will always be mentioned.

I think it is much more likely that the delegate feels a larger number of people will vote against the resolution because he votes for it than the number of votes he can cast. A wise strategy.

[Scarsaw]

That arguement can and will be used against every condemnation of a region. Just as it was in the case of Macedon, it will always be mentioned.

I think it is much more likely that the delegate feels a larger number of people will vote against the resolution because he votes for it than the number of votes he can cast. A wise strategy.

Currently the votes for the condemnation is nearly five times greater than against, so I doubt he acted out of fear that the resolution will not pass.

[Dragonfrogs]

We should not condemn them just because of there belief if That's why I would condemn all the christian states I don't do and neither should we do Nazi europe

No, it's totally different. Beliefs are one thing, prejudices are another.

I would condemn them, but I can't get a WA membership because of my brother...

[Codnavscar]

I talked with him. I tell you it is strictly for publicity. He doesn't care if NAZI EUROPE gets condemned because it nations looking for a credible National socialistic region will find one that has been condemned to be more credible.

[Scarsaw]

I talked with him. I tell you it is strictly for publicity. He doesn't care if NAZI EUROPE gets condemned because it nations looking for a credible National socialistic region will find one that has been condemned to be more credible.

I do acknowledge that is is most likely because of the publicity, but I don't think he holds any fear of the condemnation not passing. It's quite obvious that, unfortunately, this condemnation will pass as people tend to promote freedom of choice and tolerance, but only if your choice and views are the 'correct' ones to choose.

[Aundotutunagir]

Walter Arbuthnot, prudently opening an umbrella, signals to the Gnomes to turn on the sprinklers, muttering, "The next Condemnation should go to the Building Management. You'd think they'd have the damn things on automatic."

As the sprinklers continue to deluge the Security Council chamber, Hiriaurtung Arororugul wades through the ankle-deep water and again takes to the podium to speak.

"Fellow ambassadors, the Aundotutunagirian Ministry of Information has assembled a short video presentation for the purpose of clarifying our position on the proposed condemnation. I direct your attention to the main projection screen:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve0XrTiFiwo

I trust that will serve to improve your understanding of our policy on this matter. Thank you.

Hiriaurtung Arororugul exits the podium and wades through the rising waters back to his desk.

[New Xania]

I voted for this a while ago, but I wasn't set on it.

But after watching the region in question's RMB, I am certainly for. The comment about Jews and a Bulldozer, and the queer comment, sold me.

(Although currently the Ambassador setting fires within our chamber may be a bigger threat than this region.)

I support for Daynor has said and wish only to add a word which every Nazi in Europe would do well to know. "Dresden".

*Smiles as he remembers the fires that showed the nazis that kind of hate would not be tolerated*

[Surote]

We should not condemn them just because of there belief if That's why I would condemn all the christian states I don't do and neither should we do Nazi europe

No, it's totally different. Beliefs are one thing, prejudices are another.

I would condemn them, but I can't get a WA membership because of my brother...

Your condemning cause of there beliefs that's bad jees people can't even believe in something without being condemned.