PASSED: Condemn NAZI EUROPE

[Dagguerro]

Problem here with your own logic:

Where is it shown that this region is racist or antisemitic? It is as absurd as condemning a Muslim region for the 9/11 attacks or what have you.

Actually that isn't a flaw with the logic; but in fairness I've probably not clarified properly. Let me spell it out more clearly:
Such things as racism and antisemitism are intrinsic parts of the Nazi ideology. They are part of the fundamentals of what make Nazism Nazism; as opposed to a different ideology.
Anyone who proudly proclaims themselves as Nazis are indicating that they support the Nazi ideology and wish to be identified as Nazis with all that that entails. This region proudly claims to be "Nazi Europe".
Thus the conclusion that this region, and the nations there, are fundamentally supportive of racism and antisemitism amongst other things.

Your comparison here is flawed because the 9/11 attacks are not fundamentally part of the Muslim religion; however racism and antisemitism are fundamental parts of Nazism. Furthermore you seem to insist on bringing up individual events. Let me reiterate; my region and myself were not supportive of this condemnation because of any specific EVENT carried out by either the Nazis or this region but by their proud support of a racist and antisemitic ideology.


As for the constant rambling from various people about "they've done nothing", you're pretty much missing the point of the condemnation. Let me make it plain, what they have "done" is proudly state that they support racism, antisemitism, etc. Basically support of all that goes with the Nazi ideology. And in voting against it you are officially and publicly stating that your nation is tolerant of that kind of thing. This is NOT a vote of what RL Nazis have done; this is a vote as to whether you think it is acceptable that a nation exhibits such hateful behaviour as racism.

[Epicnopolis]

...Because...uh... ....er...um....Oh right because when I wrote this I didn't know their was an act to repeal it. My bad.

[Scarsaw]

Your comparison here is flawed because the 9/11 attacks are not fundamentally part of the Muslim religion; however racism and antisemitism are fundamental parts of Nazism. Furthermore you seem to insist on bringing up individual events. Let me reiterate; my region and myself were not supportive of this condemnation because of any specific EVENT carried out by either the Nazis or this region but by their proud support of a racist and antisemitic ideology.

The Federation of Scarsaw would like to educate the Benevolent Empire of Dagguerro in the fact that although the Muslim religion does not promote specifically attacks like the world infamous 9/11, there are some parts of their Holy Book, the Koran, that promotes violence against infidels and giving oneself to the violent cause. The book also puts down the unbelievers, describing them at times as evil or inhuman.

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)
"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36)
"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27)
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37)
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

We fail to see how this is much different than Nazism, except for the fact that society tends to focus only on the racist part of Nazism and ignore the violent part of the Koran.

[The Great Lord Tiger]

Problem here with your own logic:

Where is it shown that this region is racist or antisemitic? It is as absurd as condemning a Muslim region for the 9/11 attacks or what have you.

Actually that isn't a flaw with the logic; but in fairness I've probably not clarified properly. Let me spell it out more clearly:
Such things as racism and antisemitism are intrinsic parts of the Nazi ideology. They are part of the fundamentals of what make Nazism Nazism; as opposed to a different ideology.
Anyone who proudly proclaims themselves as Nazis are indicating that they support the Nazi ideology and wish to be identified as Nazis with all that that entails. This region proudly claims to be "Nazi Europe".
Thus the conclusion that this region, and the nations there, are fundamentally supportive of racism and antisemitism amongst other things.

Your comparison here is flawed because the 9/11 attacks are not fundamentally part of the Muslim religion; however racism and antisemitism are fundamental parts of Nazism. Furthermore you seem to insist on bringing up individual events. Let me reiterate; my region and myself were not supportive of this condemnation because of any specific EVENT carried out by either the Nazis or this region but by their proud support of a racist and antisemitic ideology.


As for the constant rambling from various people about "they've done nothing", you're pretty much missing the point of the condemnation. Let me make it plain, what they have "done" is proudly state that they support racism, antisemitism, etc. Basically support of all that goes with the Nazi ideology. And in voting against it you are officially and publicly stating that your nation is tolerant of that kind of thing. This is NOT a vote of what RL Nazis have done; this is a vote as to whether you think it is acceptable that a nation exhibits such hateful behaviour as racism.

Show me an example of where this region had acted, or stated that they support being, racist, antisemitic, etc. Not Real Life Nazis, this region. They (this region's nations) have, as a whole, exhibited no such tendencies or actions. As such, your claim that they should be persecuted in case that they do something in the future (which is the only viable option) is akin to charging a man with a gun in his house -- of which you know nothing about his intentions, legal status, etc. -- with murder (or rather, intention to). It's unfair to them. People with guns have been shown to kill people. Does that mean that possessing a gun means you're going to? No. People who follow Nazism have been racist or antisemitic. Does that mean a person who subscribes to Nazism hates not-white people and Jews? No -- I remember an IC post (you know, what you're supposed to be paying attention to) by a member of the region, reiterating the fact that, yes, Nazism depends on the existence of a substandard human/being as the target of blame -- in his case, zombies, not Jewish people. Because this is still, and will remain, in-character. You, like many of your moralistic "holier-than-thou" buddies, are the ones being intolerant -- because it is assumed that, to be Nazi, you must hate not-white races and Jews. Nazism =/= white supremacy; Nazism =/= antisemitism, both ICly AND OOCly.

To sum it up: unless a new resolution is made citing evidence of untoward action on the region's part, this is illegal -- because according to you, its intention is to punish an ideology, specifically mentioned as something NOT TO BE DONE in the WA Resolution rules. Again, this is why I will be voting against, because as it stands, this resolution is wholly illegal and at least 3/4 OOC.

[Scarsaw]

I remember an IC post (you know, what you're supposed to be paying attention to) by a member of the region, reiterating the fact that Nazism depends on the existence of a substandard human/being -- in his case, zombies, not Jewish people. Because this is still, and will remain, in-character.

OOC: Just to add to that, a new member of our region replaced Jewish with humans, as their nation is a society of bears who view humans as the substandard being.

[Glen-Rhodes]

The Great Lord Tiger has a point. Dagguerro, your whole premise assumes that NAZI EUROPE is actually populated by real-life Nazis, or that they actively support and celebrate Nazism. Without proof of those things, your premise falls apart. Having "Nazi" in the name does not mean that the region, as a whole, actually supports real-life Nazism. For example, Glen-Rhodes is currently lead by an iron-fist dictator, who came to power by electoral fraud and exiling the previous leaders. This doesn't mean I support authoritarianism.

Not to mention that the resolution should actually be illegal, but the refusal of mods to declare rules has left these gaping wounds open. The World Assembly has never, and should never, officially express positive or negative opinions of political, economic, or religious ideologies. I've addressed this in my repeal.

[Araraukar]

I support for Daynor has said and wish only to add a word which every Nazi in Europe would do well to know. "Dresden".

You mean the city that all the German refugees had flocked to, and which the Allied them bombed to the ground, killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people, whose government said killers didn't like?

I'm not a member of WA, nor do I wish to be, and neither do I support nazism. National socialism is an entirely another sort of animal, and doesn't need to be put to sleep. What, you'd ban communism next, because of what Stalin did?

I do admit, however that naming your region "Nazi Europe" wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Just my two bits.

[Scarsaw]

I support for Daynor has said and wish only to add a word which every Nazi in Europe would do well to know. "Dresden".

You mean the city that all the German refugees had flocked to, and which the Allied them bombed to the ground, killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people, whose government said killers didn't like?

OOC: Ah yes, the city where the allies committed what is seen to day as a highly debatable war crime. Then again, that war crime would only add to the list of war crimes committed by allies (which include execution of prisoners, doing the same unrestricted submarine warfare that they charged Admiral Karl Donitz with, and massive attacks on non-military targets with the desire to kill civilians and lower their moral. It is a subject that I know have little place on this thread, but one I have a trouble with keeping quiet about as it appears so few realize that in war, horrible acts are committed on both sides. The 'hero's or victors are not usually as clean as they portray themselves as.

[Araraukar]

The 'hero's or victors are not usually as clean as they portray themselves as.

Still OOC: Well, the winners write (or re-write) the history, so obviously they want to delete the mentions of their own wrong-doings...

[Aundotutunagir]

The sub surfaces next to Mongkha's rubber dingy, which is still being rowed in circles by the hapless Tarmshirin of Herat. General Arororugul and Mongkha exit the small conning tower and stand upon the deck surveying the scene around them. Lake Security Council is crowded with assorted improvised vessels and flotation devices which have been hurriedly assembled by the various delegations to avoid drowning in the still rising waters.

The General mutters, to no one in particular: "They look like rats fleeing a sinking ship...." He then turns to Mongkha.

"Khan of Kashgar, I was delighted that you could join me. Naturally I will accept your offer of hospitality and visit you at your estates in Bactria. Perhaps I will bring horses and we can spend a couple of days living on the steppes like our forefathers?"

He then lowers his voice. "I have many things to speak to you about, noble Khan. All is not well in Golthaindroror, but I would prefer to speak of these things in a more private setting."

As the elderly Khan prepares to make his way on to the dingy, two of the youthful black uniformed Aundotutunagirians appear on deck to assist him. Hiriaurtung Arororugul retrieves a bullhorn from a nearby waterproof compartment and begins using it to address the flooded Security Council chamber. He paces back and forth on the sub's deck.

"MEN AND WOMEN OF THE WORLD ASSEMBLY, DO NOT BE FOOLED BY THIS ILL-CONCEIVED CONDEMNATION OF A REGION WHICH HAS DONE NO HARM TO ANY OF YOU. TANNERFRANKLAND IS A STOOGE OF THE INTERNATIONAL CHINESE COMMUNIST CONSPIRACY. THEY ARE USING THE WORLD ASSEMBLY AS A VEHICLE OF WORLD DOMINATION. THEY MEAN TO MAKE SLAVES OF YOU ALL. WE MUST JOIN TOGETHER AND DEFEAT THIS RED MENACE. THE FINAL SOLUTION TO THE TANNERFRANKLAND PROBLEM......

"

[Firstaria]

GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION # 30
Freedom of Expression

A resolution to increase democratic freedoms.


Category: Furtherment of Democracy


Strength: Mild


Proposed by: FlagOmigodtheykilledkenny

Description: Assured that freedom of expression is an essential human right deserving of international protection;

Determined that no one should have to put their lives, families, liberty or property at risk for expressing honest dissent with, otherwise criticizing or even satirizing their leaders, governments, societies, churches or any other institutions of established power;

Chastened by the sacrifices already made by prisoners and victims of conscience throughout the world;

Nonetheless convinced that free expression does not extend to such abuses as defamation, incitements to disorder, or academic fraud;

Agreed that for purposes of this resolution defamation is defined as the use of knowingly false information, or the raising of such with reckless disregard for its truthfulness, in a deliberate attempt to impugn the character or reputation of any individual, group or organization, excepting government institutions or political leaders,

Be it therefore resolved that the World Assembly:

Affirms the right of all people to express their personal, moral, political, cultural, religious and ideological views freely and openly, without fear of reprisal;

Requires member states to respect and uphold this right in all available media to all individuals under their jurisdiction;

Expects member states to enforce this right fairly and equitably in the application of national laws;

Allows member states to set reasonable restrictions on expression in order to prevent defamation, as well as plagiarism, copyright or trademark infringement, and other forms of academic fraud; incitements to widespread lawlessness and disorder, or violence against any individual, group or organization; the unauthorized disclosure of highly classified government information; the unauthorized disclosure of strictly confidential personal information; and blatant, explicit and offensive pornographic materials;

Forbids member states from abusing these restrictions in an effort to stifle free expression among law-abiding citizens.

Votes For: 3,225
Votes Against: 992

Implemented: Thu Jan 1 2009

Period.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

*snipped irrelevant GA resolution*

Period.

...does not apply to regions or players, just nations and their imaginary inhabitants.

Ellipses.

[New Rockport]

GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION # 30

[...]

Affirms the right of all people to express their personal, moral, political, cultural, religious and ideological views freely and openly, without fear of reprisal;

[...]

How does this resolution interfere with that right? A condemnation has no practical effect. It merely expresses an opinion. The Nazi Europeans are free to express their opinion, and this assembly is free to express its opinion.

[Glen-Rhodes]

How does this resolution interfere with that right? A condemnation has no practical effect. It merely expresses an opinion. The Nazi Europeans are free to express their opinion, and this assembly is free to express its opinion.

A condemnation is indeed a reprisal.

[New Rockport]

What practical effect does it have? The description at the top of each condemnation proposal reads, "A resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region." That is all it does. There is no economic effect. The delegate and member nations have the same number of votes as they did before. Member nations are just as free to use the forum. A condemnation is an expression of shock and dismay and nothing more.

[Arnatious]

Nazi was the name for the National Socialist party of Europe, deriving from *NA*tional and so*ZI*alistisch. Until Adolph Hitler took over, it was a simple socialist movement. Hitler proposed radical ideas and created a Totalitarian Discriminatory government, Nazism was originally the same thing as strong liberalism. Now, NAZI has the terrible connotation it should have after Hitler's changes. Granted they picked a provocative name, but they mean socialist by it.

[The Great Lord Tiger]

What practical effect does it have? The description at the top of each condemnation proposal reads, "A resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region." That is all it does. There is no economic effect. The delegate and member nations have the same number of votes as they did before. Member nations are just as free to use the forum. A condemnation is an expression of shock and dismay and nothing more.

The problem is that said expression of shock and dismay is intended to be levied upon nations which do things, ICly, to deserve it.

[Eriscia]

I don't see anything wrong with condemning Nazis. I mean, why should we tolerate their political beliefs when they don't tolerate anyone else's?

[Firstaria]

Eriscia, a similar ideology will be the ruin of WA neutrality. According to what you say, regions needs a condemnation only because they don't like WA???

And for the GA resolution, it totally applies here, because one of the motives of the condemnation is to stop the spreading of this ideology. Besides, regions are made of nations, nations are made of people, so regions are affected by resolution like this.

Arnatious, you speech is full with RL facts, like this resolution, and i belive this is WHY we can't approve it. NAZI EUROPE can be the baddest region ever, for a milion reasons, but not for the word "NAZI".

[Scarsaw]

I don't see anything wrong with condemning Nazis. I mean, why should we tolerate their political beliefs when they don't tolerate anyone else's?

I am curious Eriscia, do you have a NS case that shows when we did not tolerate anyone else? Is there a thread where a Nazi is raging war against another nation because of their political beliefs? Is there a region destroyed by NAZI EUROPE because of their political beliefs? Please show me any example of where NS Nazis did not tolerate the political beliefs of others, and then I might consider your statement more valid.

Also, since it seems like you are focusing on RL, I would like to point out that many political beliefs do not tolerate others. America, a democratic country, stopped trading with Cuba based on their political beliefs. Democratic countries are trying to force bring democracy to non-democratic countries in the Middle East and often it is seen that if it's not democracy, it's shit. For example, look at how democratic society tends to view communism, national socialism and dictatorship very poorly and dismisses any value they could have.

[Kibble93]

the Nazi Europe have never done anything to offend anyone in NS as our region is banded together by our beliefs not the actions we take against other nations, which is why i hope you all vote against the condemnation of Nazi Europe.

[Launs]

Under a circumstance where ones beliefs do not inflict harm of any sort on another person I would agree, however the Nazi philosophy segregates and oppresses specific groups of people and therefore we are inclined to stick with the vote of support cast by us (Launs) for condemning Nazi Europe.

[Unibot]

Under a circumstance where ones beliefs do not inflict harm of any sort on another person I would agree, however the Nazi philosophy segregates and oppresses specific groups of people and therefore we are inclined to stick with the vote of support cast by us (Launs) for condemning Nazi Europe.

Do you know of anytime where Nazi Europe has segregated or oppressed any specific group of people?
I feel the proposal is attacking the region, merely because of its name - which seems to me to be the real discrimination.

[Meldaria]

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?t=7656&f=24&view=unread#unread

We cannot condemn for their beliefs. It is not democratic to do that. We cannot enforce our beliefs on them. And as long as they do not force there beliefs on anyone else. We should not act. And I say this as a Jew myself.

Sincerely,
The Republic of Epicnopolis; it's president, and it's people.

But surely after the destruction of The Alliance of Bolshevik State makes them worthy of condemnation.

[Launs]

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?t=7656&f=24&view=unread#unread

We cannot condemn for their beliefs. It is not democratic to do that. We cannot enforce our beliefs on them. And as long as they do not force there beliefs on anyone else. We should not act. And I say this as a Jew myself.

Sincerely,
The Republic of Epicnopolis; it's president, and it's people.

But surely after the destruction of The Alliance of Bolshevik State makes them worthy of condemnation.

Agreed. Now, they may not have physically done any segregating yet (to our knowledge), however if they openly call themselves Nazi's, and state that they support the Nazi belief- then they also openly state their policies of racism, hate, intolerance, and willingness to use violence against minorities. You can not say that their are no gays, Jews, blacks, or any other group that Nazi's may show distaste towards, that live in Europe. Plenty of these people have homes in Europe- if Europe is controlled by Nazi's then these minorities will become subject to a revival of holocausts. This is unacceptable.