PASSED: Condemn NAZI EUROPE

[Almajoya]

i think it is happening in NS, but no one knows of it...

The Iraq War, on NS.

Because suspicion that they MIGHT be MAYBE POTENTIALLY planning something that NO ONE ELSE KNOWS ABOUT is enough justification.

*applauds this*

Thing is, Dubya got his way with that, just like Georgetpwn is going to get his way here.

[The Great Lord Tiger]

i think it is happening in NS, but no one knows of it...

The Iraq War, on NS.

Because suspicion that they MIGHT be MAYBE POTENTIALLY planning something that NO ONE ELSE KNOWS ABOUT is enough justification.

*applauds this*

Thing is, Dubya got his way with that, just like Georgetpwn is going to get his way here.

Ah, but we here can reverse it.

Which is why, the instant this condemnation passes in the WA, I will be making a thread ICly asking for someone more skilled at bureacratese to write a repeal resolution.

[Daynor]

If your theory that everyone is inferior to you and only voted for this because of the words 'NAZI' and 'Condemn', then what good would that do, seeing as it will then be 'Repeal' 'NAZI' and 'Condemn'?

[Georgetpwn]

seeing that the Repeal Comdemn Macedon proposal has 4 endorsements, and being unlikely to get 45 endorsements in 2 days...
a repeal of the condemn NAZI EUROPE is not likely to come unless thousands of nazis joined NS with hundreds of regions with delegates to pass such a proposal and resolution.

now if that were to happen, NS would be condemned in RL by world governments, mainly Germany.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

It's only not getting approvals because no one is telegramming for it. Given the rate for approvals has fallen below 50, any proposal with a minimal telegram campaign behind it ought to reach quorum.

[The Great Lord Tiger]

If your theory that everyone is inferior to you and only voted for this because of the words 'NAZI' and 'Condemn', then what good would that do, seeing as it will then be 'Repeal' 'NAZI' and 'Condemn'?

I didn't say everyone is inferior to me. I said that

Votes For: 2,452 people (AKA Condemn Nazis because they caused the Holocaust! (nevermind that the Holocaust doesn't exist in the NS world)

are inferior to

Votes Against: 1,060 people (who either A.) See that this is a poor excuse for a proper resolution, B.) See that this is hindering freedom of expression/speech, or C.) Realize that Nazi Europe hasn't done anything IC, as such things SHOULD be judged.)

as a whole.

Georgetpwn, you really need to get off the moral high horse because you can't seem to accept fantasy. The Reppy Worship thread, the Moon blown up thread, and now this -- you are unable to be objective and understand the differences between RL (or scratching that, seriousness/reality) and fantasy, especially where you're telling us that RL governments are going to give a shit. Just like the Pope was going to take offense to that Reppy worship, right?

The repeal of this idiotic resolution would, at the least, reach quorum, not only because of the fact that more than 50 delegates have already voted against it in this session, but because it never should have been passed; it's like putting a coloring book up to a college textbook review board, and having them put it into the curriculum. God only knows WHY, but for some reason, they let a pointless, inane, and unsubstantiated motion pass. I only wish to see it -- as do several other of more than a thousand people -- be rejected for the worthless waste of paper that it is (ICly).

[Dagguerro]

Votes For: 2,452 people (AKA Condemn Nazis because they caused the Holocaust! (nevermind that the Holocaust doesn't exist in the NS world)

OOC: Your logic here is quite interesting:
- 2,452 people voted to condemn "Nazi Europe".
- People oppose the Nazis because they caused the Holocaust.
- Therefore, everyone who voted in favour of this condemnation must be doing so on that basis.

Except your assumption here is wrong, because at least some of those votes came from my region, and I know that at least some of them (myself included) have a very different reason for voting in favour than what Nazis did IRL. To repeat earlier comments, regardless of what they have or have not physically done in NS the ideology must be assumed to be based on the same fundamentals as the RL equivilant; in the same way every OTHER NS political ideology is based on the RL equivilant. If this were not the case then pretty much nothing on this website would make any sense as there would be no context to it (i.e. the fact that capitalism in NS is comparable to capitalism IRL and socialism in NS is comparable to socialism IRL is a fundamental part of the game and is pretty much hard coded into the issues for a start in terms of how they affect your nation; without these distinctons then little would make sense in the game). Myself and my region find some of the fundamentals of Nazism (racism, antisemitism, etc) to be worthy of condemnation; hence our votes in favour.

[Quovar]

I agree that the Nazis are likely just as racist in NS as they are IRL, but many other nations are also evil. ICly, Quovar wouldn't think Nazis were that bad, as least not until they attacked Muslims and/or Arabic people. I choose to react the same as a Quovarian ambassador would, and their opinion about Nazis, based on my limited knowledge of the Nazi Europe region, and ignoring RL history that they'd know nothing about would be "meh, just another infidel killing more infidels".

[The Great Lord Tiger]

Votes For: 2,452 people (AKA Condemn Nazis because they caused the Holocaust! (nevermind that the Holocaust doesn't exist in the NS world)

OOC: Your logic here is quite interesting:
- 2,452 people voted to condemn "Nazi Europe".
- People oppose the Nazis because they caused the Holocaust.
- Therefore, everyone who voted in favour of this condemnation must be doing so on that basis.

Except your assumption here is wrong, because at least some of those votes came from my region, and I know that at least some of them (myself included) have a very different reason for voting in favour than what Nazis did IRL. To repeat earlier comments, regardless of what they have or have not physically done in NS the ideology must be assumed to be based on the same fundamentals as the RL equivilant; in the same way every OTHER NS political ideology is based on the RL equivilant. If this were not the case then pretty much nothing on this website would make any sense as there would be no context to it (i.e. the fact that capitalism in NS is comparable to capitalism IRL and socialism in NS is comparable to socialism IRL is a fundamental part of the game and is pretty much hard coded into the issues for a start in terms of how they affect your nation; without these distinctons then little would make sense in the game). Myself and my region find some of the fundamentals of Nazism (racism, antisemitism, etc) to be worthy of condemnation; hence our votes in favour.

Problem here with your own logic:

Where is it shown that this region is racist or antisemitic? It is as absurd as condemning a Muslim region for the 9/11 attacks or what have you.

[Alsted]

To: All World Assembly ("WA") Delegates ("WAD"s)
From: The United States of Alsted ("TUSA"), WAD, Europe
Re: TUSA Voting Policy, "Commend/Condemn" WA Resolutions
Date: July 18, 2009

TUSA will continue to follow the well-established precedent of European regional foreign-policy neutrality. Along those lines, TUSA interprets all WA "Commend/Condemn" resolutions to be similar to "Bills of Attainder" - pieces of legislation directed at an ascertainable individual or group. As such, TUSA interprets approving or denying any "Commend/Condemn" WA resolutions as making a decision on an individual nation or region and thus establishing Europe's foreign policy stance towards the same.

For that reason, note for as long as TUSA is Europe's WAD - TUSA will abstain from voting on all "Commend/Condemn" WA resolutions. Please also instruct your regional nations to note the same - TUSA will not defer from this stance for any reason, including multiple telegrams urging otherwise. Thank you.

[Jey]

Totally against. Another Awful Precedent™.

[Leocardia]

Leocardia supports this issue.

Nazism is a white supremacist ideology and should be banned, as racism is becoming more looked down upon as globalization is in our generation. The Nazi belief has led to the Holocaust, and they support mass slaughter.

Therefore, Leocardia supports the condemnation.

[The Great Lord Tiger]

Leocardia supports this issue.

Nazism is a white supremacist ideology and should be banned, as racism is becoming more looked down upon as globalization is in our generation. The Nazi belief has led to the Holocaust, and they support mass slaughter.

Therefore, Leocardia supports the condemnation.

Ideologies can not be banned.

[Scarsaw]

Ideologies can not be banned.

Ah true, but, as we are seeing, those who follow them can have action taken against them.

[Todd McCloud]

The East Pacific has voted against this condemnation. While the stigma of Nazism has generally been a bad one (historically speaking...) TEP cannot really find any concrete situations in which this region in particular did something objectionable. If we are going to criticize regions for their name and ideologies alone, this could create a slippery slope leading to the go-ahead of various ideological witch-hunts in and around NS.

With that in mind, I encourage the floor to listen to our reasoning.

[Firstaria]

Personally, i agree with Todd. The NAZI region is being condemned by the WA not for being an invader region or have do something wrong, indeed this resolution is based on RL theories, so it needs to be canceled by admins.

Please, stop this ideological war before starting it, or prepare to an armaggeddon caused by prejudice.

[New Rockport]

Considering that you knowingly planted a puppet nation in a region with the intentions of causing controversy, I hardly think that you possess the moral high ground. It is well-known that this region has seen an influx of new members, both supporting and... condemning. Your claim might have had more warrant, were such actions taken when the region was NOT under great (and undue) negative attention. As it was... again, you were INTENDING to provoke a reaction by creating a nation such as have been harassing the people of the region.

There was no intent to cause controversy. Of course we knew that controversy might ensue. However, for all this talk of the distinction between national socialists and Nazis, and the distinction between IC Nazis and RL Nazis, there were some within our government who expected these honorable national socialists to seize the PR opportunity we had handed them and show the world that they accept Jews within their midst.

I would not accept this as empirical evidence at any rate -- one instance of removing a potential flamer and/or spammer does not prove habitual abuse of freedoms.

Fair enough.

Before you make the claim that you did nothing to be a 'threat' to them, let me remind everyone present of 'the history of Das Judenland':

* 4 hours ago: Das Judenland was ejected and banned from NAZI EUROPE by The Armed Republic of Sound Systems.
* 4 hours ago: Das Judenland changed nation type to "Free Land".
* 5 hours ago: Das Judenland relocated from The East Pacific to NAZI EUROPE.
* 5 hours ago: Das Judenland altered its national flag.
* 5 hours ago: Das Judenland was founded.

So a nation, calling itself by a name that seems tailor-made to harass Nazi Europe, is created, has its flag changed to the Star of David, and immediately moves to the region in question. Were I in Nazi Europe, I would have banned you. The fact that you were a very pro-Jewish seeming nation, that JUST SO HAPPENED to make Nazi Europe its new region after its creation but... what, 30 minutes before that? -- makes the case of the Regional Delegate and members much stronger. Had this been a long-existing nation, or even a few days old, fine. Creating the nation, and then immediately moving to a hot-topic nation that ostensibly opposes your puppet's viewpoints? No.

Nazi Europe routinely posts recruiting messages in the feeder regions, so we had no reason to suspect that a new nation might be cause for concern. It was our impression that Nazi Europe wanted new nations to join its region. As for ostensibly opposing our puppet's viewpoints, we've repeatedly been told that it's only RL Nazis that oppose Judaism, and as far as we in the Nationstates universe are concerned, there's no reason to believe that national socialists are necessarily racist or anti-Semitic.

Considering the real life threats that I am quite sure Scarsaw is being sincere about because you dicks can't accept an IC name, I'm surprised they haven't PWed the region.

We were not aware that the threats came from nations flying the Magen David. That was indeed an intelligence failure on our part.

[Firstaria]

SECURITY COUNCIL

Condemn NAZI EUROPE

A resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region.

Category: Condemnation | Nominee: NAZI EUROPE | Proposed by: TannerFrankLand

Description: RECOGNIZING the Nazi ideology as one of hate,

ASSERTING that any region condoning and encouraging such beliefs is a danger to a large range of minorities and cultures,

FURTHER ASSERTING that it is our responsibility to discourage this kind of intolerance,

HOPING that an official condemnation from the World Assembly will discourage people from listening to or believing any messages of hate or intolerance from this region,

the World Assembly hereby condemns the region of NAZI EUROPE.

I want to remember everyone this is the resolution. Do you read anywere of this "create a puppet and ban it" incident or other problems like mass recruiting spam etcetera???
This resolution condemns NAZI EUROPE for his ideology, not for ANY bad thing they make in the game, so it's dangerous because if it's approved anyone will belive RL slight references or personal matters can be inserted in resolution. I'm not saying NAZI is good, i'm simply noticing, according to THIS resolution, NAZI EUROPE didn't anything wrong in the game and so they doesn't deserve to be condemned.

[Todd McCloud]

Again, I strongly urge nations to vote against this resolution. I am not a supporter of Nazism, but this region has done nothing wrong. This resolution isn't about their region, it's about their ideology. We need to stop this before it gets out of hand, and other innocent regions are condemned by this witch hunt resolution.

[The Divine Avenger]

On behalf of His Imperial Majesty The Emperor of the Divine Avenger Divina Favente Imperator Electus et Semper Augustus

After carefully analyzing this debate, the Holy Emperor has instructed his ambassadors to vote against this proposal. From His perspective, the discussed region of Nazi Europe has not committed any crimes for which it should be punished. As international law states that the Resolutions of this Esteemed Assembly take precedence over local laws, His Majesty has decided that, unless a Repeal should succeed, He will order His divine ambassadors to leave this Assembly at once, as the Holy Emperor has found that it will conflict with the Habeas Corpus Act and the Declaration of Free Speech. He shall never accept any resolution of any assembly that conflicts with the right of Free Speech or the right to have a Fair Trial.

The Holy Department of History and Mythical Tales wishes to announce that it finds laughable any attempt to condemn any nation/region/... because of something that could have happened in a different world. It strongly urges the honoured delegates to practice a bit of other-world Realpolitik.

On a side-note, the Department of Other World History wishes to state that the correct term for Geheime Staatspolizei Führer and Schutzstaffelführer is Reichsführer-SS. Clearly, the honoured members have been mis-informed.

Signed today,
The Rt. Hon. Sir. H. Appleby

[Malessere]

The nazism is bad. But we want Condemn some people for their ideologies?
I'm for thought freedom. And i'm against of this resolution. I don't know if Nazi Europe do some crime or something wrong, but this resolution don't punish any crime.

[Epicnopolis]

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?t=7656&f=24&view=unread#unread

We cannot condemn for their beliefs. It is not democratic to do that. We cannot enforce our beliefs on them. And as long as they do not force there beliefs on anyone else. We should not act. And I say this as a Jew myself.

Sincerely,
The Republic of Epicnopolis; it's president, and it's people.

[Firstaria]

I agree, but why open a new topic???

[Wencee]

On behalf of His Imperial Majesty The Emperor of the Divine Avenger Divina Favente Imperator Electus et Semper Augustus

After carefully analyzing this debate, the Holy Emperor has instructed his ambassadors to vote against this proposal. From His perspective, the discussed region of Nazi Europe has not committed any crimes for which it should be punished. As international law states that the Resolutions of this Esteemed Assembly take precedence over local laws, His Majesty has decided that, unless a Repeal should succeed, He will order His divine ambassadors to leave this Assembly at once, as the Holy Emperor has found that it will conflict with the Habeas Corpus Act and the Declaration of Free Speech. He shall never accept any resolution of any assembly that conflicts with the right of Free Speech or the right to have a Fair Trial.

The Holy Department of History and Mythical Tales wishes to announce that it finds laughable any attempt to condemn any nation/region/... because of something that could have happened in a different world. It strongly urges the honoured delegates to practice a bit of other-world Realpolitik.

On a side-note, the Department of Other World History wishes to state that the correct term for Geheime Staatspolizei Führer and Schutzstaffelführer is Reichsführer-SS. Clearly, the honoured members have been mis-informed.

Signed today,
The Rt. Hon. Sir. H. Appleby

I do not believe I could possibly agree anymore with you honored sir.

[Firstaria]

The Kingdom of Firstaria commend too the sense of justice of His Imperial Majesty The Emperor of the Divine Avenger Divina Favente Imperator Electus et Semper Augustus.