PASSED: Condemn NAZI EUROPE

[Far-Tortuga]

The Far Tortugan intern assigned with monitoring the proceedings looked up with a start. "Hitler? Whose that? We don't see anyone of that name in the historical record. Also, what are Armenians? I wasn't told that this would be a quiz on fractal Earth history!"

[Ballotonia]

Personally I think we can all discuss this until we're blue in the face, but the end result will be the same. I'm convinced a majority of votes is from nations which don't even read this thread. They see 'Nazi' and 'condemn' in one sentence and will vote in favor for entirely Real Life reasons, in disregard of what the region Nazi Europe and its inhabitants have actually done within this game.

A condemnation or commendation is something that takes place in this game, and IMHO should be limited to the game NS. Commending a PLAYER behind a nation (already quite OOC) is about as far as I'd be willing to go in that regard.

The only solution I see is for the Admin to take a stance against this and yank the current resolution from the floor, redirecting it to the darkest areas of /dev/null for it to be never heard from again. The player base apparently isn't capable of doing this by itself.

Ballotonia

[Curilia]

Even though the nation of Curilia and all of its citizens condemn everything the Nazi philosophy stands for, we cannot condemn a nation for their beliefs.
That would make us no better than the Nazis themselves.

Let their beliefs be their own.
If their actions prove to be as wayward as their beliefs, then the World Assembly will have no choice but to act.

[Asgartha]

OOC: There are even more reasons for people to create a Nazi NS nation than Ardchoille (and others) indicate. Asgartha, for instance, was created to serve as a vehicle for RP'ing one side in an ongoing alternate reality war (it is comprised of those Nazis who, according to certain RL crackpot UFO conspiracy theories, escaped into the center of the Earth through the "hole" that the RL governments of the world refuse to admit exists down in Antarctica; it's the source of all of those accounts of space-Aryans in vril-powered "flying saucers" who have been bopping around the world ever since the late 1940's [Google all this stuff if you don't believe me - seriously!].) The player who created Asgartha despises Nazis and condemns them in RL at every opportunity; but if you're going to RP certain situations, you've got to have them (naturally, I RP them as stupid, bombastic fools - kind of a Keystone Gestapo; consider it to be my way of sticking a pin in the "neo/crypto" crowd).

FWIW, Asgartha, run by the heirs of Martin Bormann, would love to be condemned. They'd even deserve it. You could also Commend Britannia Subterranea (steampunk Victorians who went through the hole at the North Pole before it froze over decades ago and now dominate the Earth's interior) for continually pounding them into the ground at every opportunity, too. But I'm not going to campaign for either gong.

I've already cast my vote in this debate with my WA puppet, according to its RP views (it was a mindless "yea!", because my WA puppet is a mindless commie tool). My RL belief is that this condemnation is likely counterproductive, since it will serve as a recruiting tool by the RL "neos" and "cryptos" who show up here to recruit and "wave the flag", but at the same time I can understand the outrage of those who would like the WA to go down on record as condemning this particular metagaming use of NS (i.e., as neo-Nazi recruiting lounge).

[Britannia Subterranea]

"Bloody half-lizard towheads," mutters Admiral Parker-Smythe, lowering his powered spyglass. "Ensign, prepare a shore party."

"Right, sir!" snaps Ensign Jeffers, running off to comply with the Admiral's orders.

"Diplomatic immunity, my arse," says the Admiral, smiling. "We'll take their bloody mission if we want to." Then, after a pause, he adds, "D-mned if I know what this 'WA' is, anyway."

[Charlotte Ryberg]

PRESIDING OFFICER: The honoured delegation to Charlotte Ryberg votes Against because there is no evidence to suggest that all residents in the region follow the same ideology.

[Omnipotent Force]

Why are so many people voting for this?

[New Rockport]

Ms. Rossi dons a plastic poncho, kicks off her shoes, and wades into the shallow end of the Security Council chamber.

I did not anticipate coming down here to participate in this debate, as up until about an hour ago, New Rockport had no official position on this resolution. However, I thought my esteemed colleagues might be interested in the result of an experiment carried out by agents of the New Rockport Intelligence Agency. Our government wanted to see if Nazi Europe's ideology would lead it to engage in an act of ethnic cleansing, so our agents created the fictional nation of Das Judenland and moved it to Nazi Europe. Our agents did not do or say anything provocative on behalf of Das Judenland. Yet, less than half an hour after moving to Nazi Europe, Das Judenland was ejected and banned from the region.

Many here have argued that it is not appropriate to condemn a region merely for having a particular ideology if it doesn't engage in a condemnable action. I respect that argument. Now, however, Nazi Europe has engaged in a condemnable action. The leadership of Nazi Europe sees fit to eject and ban a nation on no other basis than that it calls itself "Das Judenland" and flies a flag bearing the Star of David.

It should be noted that the Federation of Scarsaw, to its credit, sent a welcoming telegram to Das Judenland. It might not seem fair to condemn an entire region when not all of its member nations engage in or endorse condemnable acts. However, I remind my esteemed colleagues that when the WA condemns a region, only the region bears the mark of condemnation, not the individual nations within it. It is possible to condemn Nazi Europe without condemning Scarsaw and any other honorable nations that might be located in Nazi Europe.

Respectfully submitted,
Silvana Rossi
Ambassador to the World Assembly, Republic of New Rockport
Delegate to the World Assembly, Region of Albion

[Oxnardo]

I think what some of you are missing is that just because they have a right to their beliefs doesn't mean the rest of us don't have the right to condemn them for their beliefs.

[Scarsaw]

The Federation of Scarsaw would like to thank the Republic of New Rockport for their kind words, but feel it is necessary to explain why such an action was taken against their agent, Das Judenland. In the experience of the region, usually those who fly the flag of Israel are there to hurt the region though spamming or other means. It was not banned just because it had the Star of David, but because it posed a security threat to our region. We are becoming irritated with the hateful spamming attempts, the often threats to our REAL lives and families. That is why our delegate rather take action on nations that fly the Israel flag and prevent them from harming us, as those who often fly that flag does.

[Almajoya]

Official Telegram
From the Desk of Interim Emperor Shawn Johessman
To: Security Council
Re: At Vote: Condemn Nazi Europe

The Dominion of Almajoya would like to state for the record its vote AGAINST the proposal condemning Nazi Europe. We offer as our reasons:

-our general disdain for "commend" and "condemn" resolutions;
-our inspection of the region in question, and our failure to find anything offensive;
-our high opinion of one of its members, the Federation of Scarsaw; as a few of our own Almajoyese have had the chance to interact with this nation, and have never been mistreated by said nation's representatives, and vehemently oppose marking this nation with a condemnation, whether its region mates have acted egregiously or not.

We apologize for not sending a representative, but we have our own crises to resolve at this time. However, we will instruct our region to vote against this resolution, and we sincerely urge our fellow nations to do so as well.

In the Service of Our Empress,
Shawn Johessman
Interim Emperor of Almajoya

[New Rockport]

The Federation of Scarsaw would like to thank the Republic of New Rockport for their kind words, but feel it is necessary to explain why such an action was taken against their agent, Das Judenland. In the experience of the region, usually those who fly the flag of Israel are there to hurt the region though spamming or other means. It was not banned just because it had the Star of David, but because it posed a security threat to our region. We are becoming irritated with the hateful spamming attempts, the often threats to our REAL lives and families. That is why our delegate rather take action on nations that fly the Israel flag and prevent them from harming us, as those who often fly that flag does.

Rest assured that I don't condone spamming or threats. Nor does my government. However, Das Judenland did not engage in either of those. It merely sat quietly in Nazi Europe for 28 minutes, flying the Magen David. It was not guilty of any offense, but it resembled others who were guilty. And for that, it was ejected and banned. That seems to me to be collective punishment, which is indeed condemnable.

[Warner Channel]

SECURITY COUNCIL

Condemn NAZI EUROPE

A resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region.

Category: Condemnation | Nominee: NAZI EUROPE | Proposed by: TannerFrankLand

Description: RECOGNIZING the Nazi ideology as one of hate,

ASSERTING that any region condoning and encouraging such beliefs is a danger to a large range of minorities and cultures,

FURTHER ASSERTING that it is our responsibility to discourage this kind of intolerance,

HOPING that an official condemnation from the World Assembly will discourage people from listening to or believing any messages of hate or intolerance from this region,

the World Assembly hereby condemns the region of NAZI EUROPE.

---

PRESIDING OFFICER: I yield the floor.

I disagree.

Why? Well, here it is: There is a little something certain nations, especially my own, that have a little something known as FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, and it is a human right. So what is the lenient on freedom of expression?

[The Great Lord Tiger]

The Federation of Scarsaw would like to thank the Republic of New Rockport for their kind words, but feel it is necessary to explain why such an action was taken against their agent, Das Judenland. In the experience of the region, usually those who fly the flag of Israel are there to hurt the region though spamming or other means. It was not banned just because it had the Star of David, but because it posed a security threat to our region. We are becoming irritated with the hateful spamming attempts, the often threats to our REAL lives and families. That is why our delegate rather take action on nations that fly the Israel flag and prevent them from harming us, as those who often fly that flag does.

Rest assured that I don't condone spamming or threats. Nor does my government. However, Das Judenland did not engage in either of those. It merely sat quietly in Nazi Europe for 28 minutes, flying the Magen David. It was not guilty of any offense, but it resembled others who were guilty. And for that, it was ejected and banned. That seems to me to be collective punishment, which is indeed condemnable.

Considering that you knowingly planted a puppet nation in a region with the intentions of causing controversy, I hardly think that you possess the moral high ground. It is well-known that this region has seen an influx of new members, both supporting and... condemning. Your claim might have had more warrant, were such actions taken when the region was NOT under great (and undue) negative attention. As it was... again, you were INTENDING to provoke a reaction by creating a nation such as have been harassing the people of the region. I would not accept this as empirical evidence at any rate -- one instance of removing a potential flamer and/or spammer does not prove habitual abuse of freedoms. Before you make the claim that you did nothing to be a 'threat' to them, let me remind everyone present of 'the history of Das Judenland':

* 4 hours ago: Das Judenland was ejected and banned from NAZI EUROPE by The Armed Republic of Sound Systems.
* 4 hours ago: Das Judenland changed nation type to "Free Land".
* 5 hours ago: Das Judenland relocated from The East Pacific to NAZI EUROPE.
* 5 hours ago: Das Judenland altered its national flag.
* 5 hours ago: Das Judenland was founded.

So a nation, calling itself by a name that seems tailor-made to harass Nazi Europe, is created, has its flag changed to the Star of David, and immediately moves to the region in question. Were I in Nazi Europe, I would have banned you. The fact that you were a very pro-Jewish seeming nation, that JUST SO HAPPENED to make Nazi Europe its new region after its creation but... what, 30 minutes before that? -- makes the case of the Regional Delegate and members much stronger. Had this been a long-existing nation, or even a few days old, fine. Creating the nation, and then immediately moving to a hot-topic nation that ostensibly opposes your puppet's viewpoints? No.

Considering the real life threats that I am quite sure Scarsaw is being sincere about because you dicks can't accept an IC name, I'm surprised they haven't PWed the region.

[Antemyst]

From the FAQ:

The second common mistake is to put forth a proposal which is not entirely within the NationStates world. WA proposals cannot address the rules or mechanics of the game, nor can they ask for new features. Proposals should also not address events, things, or people in the "Real World".

The Nazis who did the things the OP addresses are in the Real World.

Shouldn't this whole thing be invalid?

[Daynor]

From the FAQ:

The second common mistake is to put forth a proposal which is not entirely within the NationStates world. WA proposals cannot address the rules or mechanics of the game, nor can they ask for new features. Proposals should also not address events, things, or people in the "Real World".

The Nazis who did the things the OP addresses are in the Real World.

Shouldn't this whole thing be invalid?

There is nothing in the OP that is real world, that's why it's so short I'd guess, dodging the rule.

[Scarsaw]

Considering the real life threats that I am quite sure Scarsaw is being sincere about because you dicks can't accept an IC name, I'm surprised they haven't PWed the region.

NAZI EUROPE rarely, if not never, is under password protection as the region will not hide behind a password. From what I gather from our delegate, he does not want to remove the right people have to enter our region's boundaries. Even if people abuse that right or could try and infiltrate, we will put up with the risk and consequences in order to remain open to all who are interested in joining our ranks.

However, On the topic of those spammers. Recently I have been reporting the more extreme spammers, the ones who wish we all "burn to death in fire" and "get swine flu in all our houses" to the higher beings, although it appears little-no action is taken against them (which is amusing as if one of our members say something inappropriate on our RMB, they are removed from the world within 24 hours...yet I will not get into that here or now). To sum up, the Federation is growing ill of those who threaten our life in an OOC setting as we can tolerate much, but threatening to kill one's family is where lines are drawn.

[Unibot]

Kuno fell from the ceiling, no one knows why, but he literally split the drywall, and slammed accurately into his seat below.

Wiping a large chunk of drywall off his coat, which was now pasty white, before he began his declaration on his government's position. He took a deep breath, which ended with a loud wheezy cough of white dust.

"Excuse me, *cough* ambassadors, and budding Nazis. I was merely testing the structural integrity of the headquarter's new wing for myself. While I was away, it seems a new proposal has been photocopied a gazillion times for us to decide on. This time, a condemnation against a region pertaining to their ethnic policies. My administration has heard of stories which talk about some tragic, and horrific crimes against humanity - some of these stories even involve an global antagonist called "the Nazis". But it appears as if their real life counterpart if nothing but a shallow depiction of such a doctrine of hatred. This region hasn't been involved with a holocaust, or the violent discrimination against homosexuals - all I see is a congregation of fascist nations who picked a fairly tasteless name for themselves. But, is a shallow depiction in the honor of such a horrible fictional creation as harmful as the serious example we saw in these stories? Possibly - call me imaginative, but I don't want to see such a ideology spreading under the banner of 'good fun'. My government will be voting in favor of this proposal. In a perfect world, "Nazi Europe" would take a different approach to their administration, a humanitarian one, to ridicule the evil, and misguided antagonists of such legends. If that was the case I would surely be the first in line to commend them for their excellent tongue-in-cheek humor and their devotion to human development, that is not the case however, they are merely a collection of tasteless and almost childish, fascist governments who do more harm than good. Condemn !"

[Aundotutunagir]

Though I must admit the uniforms are rather dashing." Mongkha takes a long draw on opium pipe as an aundotutunagirian young man administers bright blue drops of tincture of Bengen in to his eye with a long pipette.

Hiriaurtung Arororugul was at the periscope scanning for Sen. Sulla's vessel. He was about to reply to Mongkha when he witnessed the Unibotan diplomat's fall from the ceiling. Amazingly, rather than striking the surface of Lake Security Council with a tremendous splash, he instead landed in his own chair which was floating among the flotsam and jetsam.

Shaking his head, he wondered if he had merely imagined what he thought he had just seen. He peered back into the periscope and there sat the Unibotan, afloat in his chair, now dusting drywall off his coat. Hiriaurtung considered mentioning this extraordinary event to Mongkha, but thought better of it. It was probably just a side-effect of the opium.

"Yes Mongkha, the uniforms are quite dashing. I must concede though that you are probably correct about much of the rest of the national socialist philosophy. It would not go well in Aundotutunagirian society. I tend to get over-excited when I discover a new thing. *sigh*

"We might keep the uniforms though...."

"Anyway, it appears that this ridiculous condemnation will likely pass. I suppose we should surface and listen in on the debate...for a while at least."

[Dagguerro]

OOC: Its actually quite interesting how many people are arguing that "Nazi ideology in RL is not the same as in NS". Here's some thoughts on the matter, perhaps it will give you some insight as to why some of us voting for it have done so:

NS capitalism is not vastly different to RL capitalism. Neither is NS socialism. The fundamental principles of the ideology and the "left-right" political spectrum are maintained through how the game is hard coded (in terms of issues) and by the attitude of various RPers on the forums. Whilst the exact degree of political ideologies may vary between the viewpoints of different people, the fundamentals of the ideologies are taken for granted as otherwise an awful lot of the game would make no sense and lose all context.

Why should NS Nazism be any different? I repeat the point of my earlier post, but OOCly now. RL Nazism involves antisemitism, racism, etc; they are fundamental aspects of this ideology. Regardless of the fact that "Nazi Germany" never existed in the NS world or that the massacres never occurred in the NS world or whatever, the ideology itself has as fundamental precepts such things. Therefore why should we assume that NS Nazism is completely different to RL Nazism in its most fundamental precepts, unlike every other political ideology in game?

Nazism is distinct from the general ideology of "National Socialism". Both myself and several of my region would be very much AGAINST this condemnation if it were against the "national socialist" ideology since, despite unfortunate connections to the Nazis, it isn't as fundamentally racist/whatever as Nazism. However its not, the region is very deliberately called "NAZI Europe" with all the implications that entails with regards to Nazism as a political ideology.

[Spredronia]

Full support. You saw what the Nazis did in WWII, we don't want that here.

[Georgetpwn]

i think it is happening in NS, but no one knows of it...

[The Great Lord Tiger]

i think it is happening in NS, but no one knows of it...

The Iraq War, on NS.

Because suspicion that they MIGHT be MAYBE POTENTIALLY planning something that NO ONE ELSE KNOWS ABOUT is enough justification.

[Unibot]

OOC: Its actually quite interesting how many people are arguing that "Nazi ideology in RL is not the same as in NS". Here's some thoughts on the matter, perhaps it will give you some insight as to why some of us voting for it have done so:

OOC: I think their argument is that the NS Nazis haven't committed any huge crimes against humanity like the real Nazis have. NS Nazism appears to be shallow depiction of Real Nazism, and sometimes, they're just people in the region who are there because they like talking about Nazi Germany and WWII - at least according to their RMB.

[Qumkent]

Though I must admit the uniforms are rather dashing." Mongkha takes a long draw on opium pipe as an aundotutunagirian young man administers bright blue drops of tincture of Bengen in to his eye with a long pipette.

Hiriaurtung Arororugul was at the periscope scanning for Sen. Sulla's vessel. He was about to reply to Mongkha when he witnessed the Unibotan diplomat's fall from the ceiling. Amazingly, rather than striking the surface of Lake Security Council with a tremendous splash, he instead landed in his own chair which was floating among the flotsam and jetsam.

Shaking his head, he wondered if he had merely imagined what he thought he had just seen. He peered back into the periscope and there sat the Unibotan, afloat in his chair, now dusting drywall off his coat. Hiriaurtung considered mentioning this extraordinary event to Mongkha, but thought better of it. It was probably just a side-effect of the opium.

"Yes Mongkha, the uniforms are quite dashing. I must concede though that you are probably correct about much of the rest of the national socialist philosophy. It would not go well in Aundotutunagirian society. I tend to get over-excited when I discover a new thing. *sigh*

"We might keep the uniforms though...."

"Anyway, it appears that this ridiculous condemnation will likely pass. I suppose we should surface and listen in on the debate...for a while at least."

Mongkha rouses himself from a narcotic reverie, "Ah yes the debate! I had quite forgotten the whole business Noble General. Ha! well of course this condemnation would pass, many were the warnings and the prophecies that this new power of the World Assembly would be quickly misused by fools and to ends which will have grave consequences for us all unless this power was closely guided by rules. The lesson of Max Barry day will never be learnt it seems." The elderly Khan ruminates.

"Perhaps we should surface for a bit eh Noble General ? Tarmashirin will be shaming himself with worry if I'm out of sight for too long, pitiful wretch, his father was a goatherd you know, and his mother a notoriously corpulent woman of ill repute from Otrar." Mongkha arranges himself and smoothes his costly robes as he chatters amiably. "We must do this again sometime, I have some of the finest opium the CSKU has to offer grown on my estates in Bactria, you must join me in some so that I can repay your hospitality."