PASSED: Liberate belgium

[Hott snows]

I am in outright favour of this, too. Brave of you to do what others have contemplated ever since the event. Also, I express my forecast, and with it some concern, that this will turn into an all-out crusade against Macedon. My concern is because this will set a precedent, allowing anyone with a grudge to submit a proposal against a region in the same manner.

Well, anyone can submit a proposal against a region, but the trouble is first getting it to quorum, which is hard to do with regions that seem to be running fine, then voted on in the resolution, which is even harder. That system kind of protects it from being abused.

I really see this only being used for regions which have undergone 'password grabs', where the password is put into place early on for unskilled empire builders.

I am tired of you calling the raid a password grab! Its not like we came in right before update and password protected it!!! my GOD! It is now mencer's region and we can password protect it if we want... we have that right. I don't know what the big deal is? If the natives didn't want Mencer in charge then they should have done something months ago!

[Hott snows]

I must admit, as a young nation, I am not too familiar with the NationStates community's opinion on password-grabbing. After browsing this thread, I assume it's frowned upon.

The simple question is 'What if it happened to you, and the region you had been associated with for the length of your time in game had this done to it?'. This, I assume, is why it's frowned upon.

or what you could do is make sure that the region that you are "associated" with can not be raided. like for example, mencer can never be invaded, and our founder doesn't even play anymore.... just get organized and figure out what you would do if the founder ever left ns, and the chances of you being raided and then slowly dieing would be very slim to non. just a thought!

[Hott snows]

[...]

On the other hand, you got writing a WA proposal and submitting it... yeah, REAL hard work to take over a region. Perhaps, as I stated before, in the future the REAL invaders will be those who do it through a WA proposal. Pathetic.

well, the region isn't liberated yet, i'm sure you will do your best to keep the region, but now at least we will get a chance to fight back. How hard that will be is totally up to you.

you had plenty of time to fight back, just because you weren't as prepared as Mener was, isn't our fault. The battle at Alamance in 1771 was the same thing... the Governor had a thousand men and the Protesters had two thousand men. However, because the Protesters were not prepared they lost against the Governor's army... How is that the Governor's fault? should he have given those people a few more months to train and prepare? Or should he have went in and defeated the protesters with his trained army after he told him he was coming and gave them ample of time to stand down and go home? please explain to me how this is any different?

[Todd McCloud]

I am in outright favour of this, too. Brave of you to do what others have contemplated ever since the event. Also, I express my forecast, and with it some concern, that this will turn into an all-out crusade against Macedon. My concern is because this will set a precedent, allowing anyone with a grudge to submit a proposal against a region in the same manner.

Well, anyone can submit a proposal against a region, but the trouble is first getting it to quorum, which is hard to do with regions that seem to be running fine, then voted on in the resolution, which is even harder. That system kind of protects it from being abused.

I really see this only being used for regions which have undergone 'password grabs', where the password is put into place early on for unskilled empire builders.

I am tired of you calling the raid a password grab! Its not like we came in right before update and password protected it!!! my GOD! It is now mencer's region and we can password protect it if we want... we have that right. I don't know what the big deal is? If the natives didn't want Mencer in charge then they should have done something months ago!

They were only give 24 hours, according to Dysia. I doubt many people even log on to nationstates every 24 hours.

Therefore, it is what it is: a password grab.

[Valipac]

[...]

On the other hand, you got writing a WA proposal and submitting it... yeah, REAL hard work to take over a region. Perhaps, as I stated before, in the future the REAL invaders will be those who do it through a WA proposal. Pathetic.

well, the region isn't liberated yet, i'm sure you will do your best to keep the region, but now at least we will get a chance to fight back. How hard that will be is totally up to you.

you had plenty of time to fight back, just because you weren't as prepared as Mener was, isn't our fault. The battle at Alamance in 1771 was the same thing... the Governor had a thousand men and the Protesters had two thousand men. However, because the Protesters were not prepared they lost against the Governor's army... How is that the Governor's fault? should he have given those people a few more months to train and prepare? Or should he have went in and defeated the protesters with his trained army after he told him he was coming and gave them ample of time to stand down and go home? please explain to me how this is any different?

So because the allies lost France to the Nazis, they should never have been able to invade it again, due to some magic invisible wall being erected between France and Great Britain?

[Scarsaw]

So because the allies lost France to the Nazis, they should never have been able to invade it again, due to some magic invisible wall being erected between France and Great Britain?

If the allies lost France to the Nazis and the French didn't do anything about it for about year, and now are finding out that they can't invade it again because of a magical invisible wall, is a more accurate comparison in my opinion.

((OOC: PS: Godwin's law proves true again))

[Veilyonia]

I am in outright favour of this, too. Brave of you to do what others have contemplated ever since the event. Also, I express my forecast, and with it some concern, that this will turn into an all-out crusade against Macedon. My concern is because this will set a precedent, allowing anyone with a grudge to submit a proposal against a region in the same manner.

Well, anyone can submit a proposal against a region, but the trouble is first getting it to quorum, which is hard to do with regions that seem to be running fine, then voted on in the resolution, which is even harder. That system kind of protects it from being abused.

I really see this only being used for regions which have undergone 'password grabs', where the password is put into place early on for unskilled empire builders.

I am tired of you calling the raid a password grab! Its not like we came in right before update and password protected it!!! my GOD! It is now mencer's region and we can password protect it if we want... we have that right. I don't know what the big deal is? If the natives didn't want Mencer in charge then they should have done something months ago!

That's pretty much saying "You should go for a walk" to someone who is tied to a tree. Seeing as a password was installed after 24 hours, belgium couldn't do anything about it, for they had less than sufficient WA members in the region. And even if it wasn't a "password grab" the fact that you set up a password as soon as humanly possible still says very little about you. Second of all, what mencer did could hardly be classified as a raid, as you were intending to destroy the region. Whether it was a password grab or not, what you are doing to belgium with the password-barrier in place is despicable at best.

[Veilyonia]

So because the allies lost France to the Nazis, they should never have been able to invade it again, due to some magic invisible wall being erected between France and Great Britain?

If the allies lost France to the Nazis and the French didn't do anything about it for about year, and now are finding out that they can't invade it again because of a magical invisible wall, is a more accurate comparison in my opinion.

((OOC: PS: Godwin's law proves true again))

Are you honestly trying to compare a year to less than a day? After all, that is how long it took to invade belgium. I can hardly believe that you're trying to justify the fact that "an invisible wall" is a legitimate reason for countries to not be able to attack each other, given that a certain time has elapsed.

[...]

On the other hand, you got writing a WA proposal and submitting it... yeah, REAL hard work to take over a region. Perhaps, as I stated before, in the future the REAL invaders will be those who do it through a WA proposal. Pathetic.

well, the region isn't liberated yet, i'm sure you will do your best to keep the region, but now at least we will get a chance to fight back. How hard that will be is totally up to you.

you had plenty of time to fight back, just because you weren't as prepared as Mener was, isn't our fault. The battle at Alamance in 1771 was the same thing... the Governor had a thousand men and the Protesters had two thousand men. However, because the Protesters were not prepared they lost against the Governor's army... How is that the Governor's fault? should he have given those people a few more months to train and prepare? Or should he have went in and defeated the protesters with his trained army after he told him he was coming and gave them ample of time to stand down and go home? please explain to me how this is any different?

The fact that an invisible wall formed around the Governer's Army after the battle so that their territory could never be attacked again...

[Scarsaw]

So because the allies lost France to the Nazis, they should never have been able to invade it again, due to some magic invisible wall being erected between France and Great Britain?

If the allies lost France to the Nazis and the French didn't do anything about it for about year, and now are finding out that they can't invade it again because of a magical invisible wall, is a more accurate comparison in my opinion.

((OOC: PS: Godwin's law proves true again))

Are you honestly trying to compare a year to less than a day? After all, that is how long it took to invade belgium. I can hardly believe that you're trying to justify the fact that "an invisible wall" is a legitimate reason for countries to not be able to attack each other, given that a certain time has elapsed.

((OOC: I couldn't think of a good length of time to equivocate one day on the internet too since I do not believe it is the same length in real life. Perhaps a year is too long, but it's at least equivalent to a month. Regardless, I'm not trying to 'justify' anything but was pointing out that the comparison to France during the second world war was not entirely accurate. I still stand by my own suggestion for a solution to this matter that I stated last page. I would like to see Belgium, and similar regions, liberated yet do understand why raiders should be given the option to password protect and enjoy their victory for a little while. I also don't agree how much their victory is downplayed, that's why I wanted to point out that your comparison is not accurate.))

[Ballotonia]

Why would the takeover of Belgium be deemed a 'victory' at all?

Getting a bunch of people together to take control of a region where the inhabitants don't see it coming isn't a fight at all, so how can it be seen as a 'victory' ? It's like taking candy from a sleeping toddler, and that's about the level of difficulty as well.

Now, had you announced your intentions BEFORE moving in, you might've had a real fight on your hands. Then after winning that you really would've achieve something. Now it's all just so... bleh.

Ballotonia

[Starblaydia]

So because the allies lost France to the Nazis, they should never have been able to invade it again, due to some magic invisible wall being erected between France and Great Britain?

If the allies lost France to the Nazis and the French didn't do anything about it for about year, and now are finding out that they can't invade it again because of a magical invisible wall, is a more accurate comparison in my opinion.

((OOC: PS: Godwin's law proves true again))

It's amusing that in RL the Germans went through Belgium in order to get around the 'impenetrable' Maginot Line to attack France.

[New Galcia]

This liberation catergory is going to be quite interesting. To give the WA the power to remove a password and to actually influence regional affairs is not only a change of great magnitude but an enormous responsiblity as well. We at the WA must vigilent against its abuse and make sure its used properly.

Now, what to make of this Belgian mess?

We must all agree what Macedon did was legal according to the rules (and still is) no matter your opinion on raiding, griefing, passwords, or influence. Therefore I accept it as a legitimate part of the game, just as they will have to accept this liberation catergory and get ready for a fight Belgium has my sympathy (no one likes to see a old and respected region fall) but part of this mess was created because of their complacency. They could have refounded a long time ago or put an endorsement cap or something.....anything to guard against invasion and take over. But to not have a chance to reclaim is unjust and this new catergory will hopefully go a long way in answering that grievence.

[Dysian]

Why would the takeover of Belgium be deemed a 'victory' at all?

Getting a bunch of people together to take control of a region where the inhabitants don't see it coming isn't a fight at all, so how can it be seen as a 'victory' ? It's like taking candy from a sleeping toddler, and that's about the level of difficulty as well.

Now, had you announced your intentions BEFORE moving in, you might've had a real fight on your hands. Then after winning that you really would've achieve something. Now it's all just so... bleh.

Ballotonia

I am amazed by your ignorance. If we announced it BEFORE, we would have ZERO chance to take the region. And yes it is a big victory. Pearl harbour was a victory for the Japanese, eventhough they did it the stealthy way.

And actually, I put a password roughly 30 hours after I became delegate. And fendas noticed the raid even BEFORE I became delegate - I saw a post on the forum of Belgium, where West-Flanders speaks of a tg he received from a 10k isles fenda. The fenda said I am having more endorsements by him and I'll probably become delegate, and he asked WF whether thats the way it should be.

It means that fendas had TWO UPDATES (the one before I became delegate, and the one after) to help belgium. And guess what: they didn't.

As to how long we've stayed in Belgium: it's more than a year. Our first attempts of invading Belgium were made at the beginning of 2008. Since then, my nation was sitting ducks and gathering influence.

[Ballotonia]

I am amazed by your ignorance. If we announced it BEFORE, we would have ZERO chance to take the region.

Ok, that was also my estimation on how well you'd fare in a fight against an enemy which actually has a real opportunity to fight back.

Ballotonia

[West-Flanders]

And actually, I put a password roughly 30 hours after I became delegate. And fendas noticed the raid even BEFORE I became delegate - I saw a post on the forum of Belgium, where West-Flanders speaks of a tg he received from a 10k isles fenda. The fenda said I am having more endorsements by him and I'll probably become delegate, and he asked WF whether thats the way it should be.

Contrary to your allegation, the telegram was sent after the delegate-change, not before. The delegacy-change looked suspicious because some nations suddenly withdrew their endo to me, and gave one to you instead, hence suspicious.
I logged on about an hour later, here's the content of the tg:

Code: Select all

"Received: 68 minutes ago
Hey W-F,
Noticed this, which looks somewhat suspicious, so just wanted to hear whether Wallonia-Flanders is legit or you might need help?
# 7 minutes ago: West-Flanders lost the position of Belgium WA Delegate to The Anarchy of Wallonia-Flanders.
# 25 minutes ago: West-Flanders lost the endorsement of The Anarchy of Wallonia-Flanders.
# 40 minutes ago: West-Flanders lost the endorsement of The Kingdom of Da Crkne Darica."

It means that fendas had TWO UPDATES (the one before I became delegate, and the one after) to help belgium. And guess what: they didn't.

It means diddle squat. We had one day where you let some invader-fella's in. And in that 1 update you were active and ready to kick defenders, so we had 0 change.

As to how long we've stayed in Belgium: it's more than a year. Our first attempts of invading Belgium were made at the beginning of 2008. Since then, my nation was sitting ducks and gathering influence.

It's not too hard to enter Belgium. Though we keep tabs on suspicious influxes of countries, and if there's an invasion, we kick.. There was such an influx in june '08. And look what I found, the date you entered. I guess you fell through the cracks because you applied for WA-membership untill later. Which would also explain why you we're only a vassal when you became delegate. Congrats you have managed to keep a puppet nation alive for a year. All hail you [/sarcasm]

* 6 hours ago:The Republic of Coq Waloon arrived from The East Pacific.
* 7 hours ago: The Democratic States of Wallonia-Flanders arrived from Futaba Aoi.
* 13 hours ago: The Queendom of Janetrulz arrived from The Pacific.
* 16 hours ago: The Empire of Bellford arrived from The Pacific.
* 17 hours ago: The People's Republic of Empty Walls arrived from Switzerland.
* 1 day ago: The Empire of Colinovic departed this region for Lazarus.
* 2 days ago: The Tuut Tuut of Zoem Zoem departed this region for Switzerland.
* 2 days ago: The Borderlands of Autre departed this region for Lazarus.
* 3 days ago: The Borderlands of Autre ceased to exist.
* 3 days ago: The Community of Netlog arrived from Lazarus.

[Dysian]

I am amazed by your ignorance. If we announced it BEFORE, we would have ZERO chance to take the region.

Ok, that was also my estimation on how well you'd fare in a fight against an enemy which actually has a real opportunity to fight back.

Ballotonia

You don't understand do you? If I announce the fight, *WE* would have a 0% chance to FIGHT, and they will have a 100% chance to FIGHT BACK. No sane invader has ever announced his invasion.

And yeah w/e WF, the fenda still had SOME chance to liberate you. They usually strike at the first update after the takeover by raiders. But even if I left it password-less, I'd still be online at the exact time every day and kick every liberator out (because it was 10 AM back then). So it really didn't change much for you, it just saved my efforts a little bit.

[Veilyonia]

You don't understand do you? If I announce the fight, *WE* would have a 0% chance to FIGHT, and they will have a 100% chance to FIGHT BACK. No sane invader has ever announced his invasion.

According to your last few posts, the defenders had ample time to free the region anyways because they had discovered your plot before you even became delegate. You're talking in circles.

[Ballotonia]

You don't understand do you? If I announce the fight, *WE* would have a 0% chance to FIGHT, and they will have a 100% chance to FIGHT BACK. No sane invader has ever announced his invasion.

And yeah w/e WF, the fenda still had SOME chance to liberate you. They usually strike at the first update after the takeover by raiders. But even if I left it password-less, I'd still be online at the exact time every day and kick every liberator out (because it was 10 AM back then). So it really didn't change much for you, it just saved my efforts a little bit.

So let me get this straight... when natives have to defend their region against invaders you blame them for not checking on the security of their region every single update (not doing so is deemed "complacent"), and you think they had ample opportunity to fight back in one single update. Despite you then knowing that a liberation attempt was quite possible so you were ready for it.

On the other hand, if you were to pre-announce an invasion to take place in for instance a particular week, then you yourself would somehow stand no chance whatsoever in taking over the region. Yet you look down upon natives and Defenders for not being able to do so in one single update...

Why are you using a different measurement for yourself as compared to how you judge others?

Ballotonia

[Dysian]

I don't judge anyone. I just harmlessly make fun of them in a non-offensive way.
And yeah maybe you're right, it's either 100% chance for me and 0% chance for them, or it's 0% me and 100% them.

And when I have the choice, do you really think I'd pick the latter?

[Warner Channel]

If I join the WA, I'm all for this. However, we need to free other Macedonian/Mencerian regions as well- such as France.

[The Emmerian Unions]

If I join the WA, I'm all for this. However, we need to free other Macedonian/Mencerian regions as well- such as France.

France was refounded.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

If I join the WA, I'm all for this. However, we need to free other Macedonian/Mencerian regions as well- such as France.

France was refounded.

Absolutely. Since that the attention has been on Pakistan.

[Vinoslavia]

This Liberate Belgium thing is pathetic. If your region was that important then it should have been able to defend itself from this type of thing.

I find you all hillarious and I think that the whole idea of the WA taking a region back is laughable.

[Veilyonia]

This Liberate Belgium thing is pathetic. If your region was that important then it should have been able to defend itself from this type of thing.

Having a lot of member nations does not make you a great region. Just because many members of belgium happened to be neutral nations rather than WA members does not suggest that the region was "unimportant." Belgium had many active nations (quality over quantity,) and maintained a high level of activity. It is because they were attacked with a larger collaboration of raiding regions during a time of little or no activity during the day that they were raided. I would laso like to reiterate that they had no founder; one does not have to have a founder to be "important," as you can see from the FRA.

I find you all hillarious and I think that the whole idea of the WA taking a region back is laughable.

I too think your idealogy is hilarious, and the fact that you have not supplied any reasons to back up your claim that belgium was "unimportant" is laughable as well.

[Dysian]

Actually, I took Belgium with the help of a bunch of my personal friends and region members. The other 3 regions mentioned, helped us with WA endorsements AFTER I became delegate, so that I can keep the position easier.

And yeah, Belgium is important. That's why I took it, with a fight, and that's why you are trying to take it back from me, but without fighting. Quality over quantity - we were in small numbers (I had less men than Belgium's delegate actually) and we still took the region. Because we are good at invading and fighting for what we conquer.

And you are all good at writing proposals and insulting us.