PASSED: Liberate belgium

[Weylara]

I must admit, as a young nation, I am not too familiar with the NationStates community's opinion on password-grabbing. After browsing this thread, I assume it's frowned upon.

[Starblaydia]

I must admit, as a young nation, I am not too familiar with the NationStates community's opinion on password-grabbing. After browsing this thread, I assume it's frowned upon.

The simple question is 'What if it happened to you, and the region you had been associated with for the length of your time in game had this done to it?'. This, I assume, is why it's frowned upon.

[Weylara]

Oh my, a WA resolution can actually REMOVE password from a region? AND keep it from being re-installed? Whats next, I submit a WA resolution that I want to be the founder of every single region in this game, and if it passes, that actually happens?First they make update time 6 am, now this. This is all a conspiracy against me

It has been explained to me that some gameplayers may see the above as having been posted IC, as it is posted under the name of the nation, not the name of the person who plays it. However, the statement itself appears to me to come from the player, not the nation (for example, the nation would be saying "us", not "me").

As we don't yet have rules for the conduct of the SC, there are no requirements that even formal debate on a resolution At Vote should be conducted by the nations. However, the risk of posting as the player, not as the nation, is that it leads to statements like these:

There has to be pretty significant public support for something like this to pass so I don't think its exactly unfair. It'll be a good lesson in life for you Dysian, if you manage to piss enough people off then no matter how safe you think you are, the roof will eventually come down on you.

[Yeah, you actually have to *try* now, you know, like raiders do. Not by password-grabbing a region and sitting there. Can't expose inadequacy that way!

Both of those appear to be addressed to the player behind the nation, even though one refers to the player by his nation's name. The underlined parts, therefore, cannot be read as the sort of mildly aggressive to-and-fro one might expect between the ambassadors of opposing nations: they are player-to-player interactions, and as such, they are at risk of being classified as flaming or flamebait, with the attendant penalties.

If many players choose to post in this "voice", and the SC accepts it, so be it; this is new ground for all of us. However, if you address the player, not the argument, understand that mods will respond to your posts in the same way as we respond to such posts in General.

I would strongly recommend that the SC adopt a tradition of formality in At Vote threads. It puts a slight filter between the brain that formulates an insult and the fingers that type it, and may save some players from unwanted time out.

If you want to debate issues raised in this post, rather than the proposal before the council, please do so in this thread or, possibly, this one.

In the meantime, maintain politeness, please, while debating the proposal.

But aren't the majority of nations posting IC in the WA forums roleplaying as an ambassador, delegate, diplomat...whatever you wish to call it? So wouldn't "me" be appropriate? And being slightly aggressive is apparently common between real life ambassadors and diplomats behind government doors, so there should be a sizeable distance before they "cross the line".

[Weylara]

I must admit, as a young nation, I am not too familiar with the NationStates community's opinion on password-grabbing. After browsing this thread, I assume it's frowned upon.

The simple question is 'What if it happened to you, and the region you had been associated with for the length of your time in game had this done to it?'. This, I assume, is why it's frowned upon.

Yes, I see what you mean.

[Ardchoille]

snip

Very well, address the nation, not 'the player behind said nation', essentially?

Yes, but:

Ardchoille is a bastard

may cause you grief*, depending on context, even if you don't actually say

The player behind Ardchoille is a bastard

On the other hand,

All Ardchoilleans are bastards. -- Fred, Chef de Mission de Fredtopia

will probably get your ambassador a well-aimed custard pie.

*Or it would if I weren't Australian.

[West-Flanders]

What if you'ldstate "Ardchoille is a Bastard NS Mod from Hell"? Would that incur the wrath of the Gods?

[Ellezelles]

[...]

On the other hand, you got writing a WA proposal and submitting it... yeah, REAL hard work to take over a region. Perhaps, as I stated before, in the future the REAL invaders will be those who do it through a WA proposal. Pathetic.

well, the region isn't liberated yet, i'm sure you will do your best to keep the region, but now at least we will get a chance to fight back. How hard that will be is totally up to you.

[The Monkye]

Sorry about saying this OOCly (if that offends some people)

To add to what Zel said...a liberation resolution from what I can see only frees up a region from being in a locked state (i.e. hidden password), and gives 'defenders/liberators' a chance to make the invaders work for their efforts by letting them get into the region. A good invader should of course be alert enough to keep hold of the region over several updates...that is the essential life of the I/D game, the challenge of being able to fight for something, rather than having to complain at that something being locked, not giving them a chance and ruining their ability to play their game. Remember, Nationstates is a game, and I/D is an activity some players engage in to keep the game fun. There's no fun in that aspect if the activity can't be participated in.

[Kapellen]

The Free Land of Kapellen, ejected from Belgium, is very glad to have the opportunity to annoy Wallonia-Flanders is a small way, by voting for this proposal, which will soon become a resolution.
The real Belgium has been occupied by foreign forces a lot of times as a result of its strategic position between greater regions. But always, and often in some unforeseen way, has it been able to kick out the occupying forces. With the much appreciated help, of course, of other, greater regions/nations. We would like to thank in advance all delegates and nations who will help us to win the epic battle to free Belgium.

Lars Björkson, Kapellen representative

[Dysian]

Well speaking for myself with using "we" instead of "me", and referring to others similarly would be very much confusing, if you know what we mean. To be honest, we've never been a big fan of formalism.

But we guess if mod says so, we do it...

[Goobergunchia]

We are pleased to report that this proposal has attained quorum. We thank all Delegates that have approved it.

[float=right][/float][Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Retired Officer, Nasicournia

[Dysian]

We are pleased to report that this proposal has attained quorum. We thank all Delegates that have approved it.

So umm, I was wondering. There are at least 3 resolutions (as I've seen) that have reached quorum before this one. Will you give the liberation advantage, and make it the next resolution on vote, or will you be fair and wait in line?

[Goobergunchia]

While this decision is not up to our delegation, we will wait for "Liberate belgium" to be put up for a vote in the regular order. For the record, upon conclusion of voting on "Commend Jey", the next orders of business will be, in order:

• Epidemic Response Act
• Condemn NAZI EUROPE
• Dignified End of Life Choices
• Liberate belgium

[float=right][/float][Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Retired Officer, Nasicournia

[Dysian]

I hope you're right, though I've heard elsewhere that they might put a priority on each liberation proposal.

So how much does that leave me with? Two more weeks with a password in Belgium?

[Kapellen]

So how much does that leave me with? Two more weeks with a password in Belgium?

Something like that, I guess. Maybe a bit longer. The real question is: will there be enough nations who really care about Belgium to make sure you will be no longer the so-called delegate of this region?

[Dysian]

yeah, that will be a challenge huh Kappelen? I better get to work then

[Charlotte Ryberg]

The quorum was the easiest in days. Many congratulations to all ambassadors who were determined to see this proposal become a resolution, including me and those representing Goobergunchia and so on. Freedom for Belgium is imminent!

Yours,

[Hott snows]

The Federation of Scarsaw does not agree with the proposed resolution, but does acknowledge that something must be done to help the recently occupied region. I believe that raiders should get some secured credit when a region is successfully occupied as, Hott snows crudely stated, it takes quite a lot of effort and time for a raider to properly overtake a region. With that said, I would support a resolution stating that password protection can not be used for more than a limited stretch of time, such as a month or two. Also, to prevent abuse of the password protection, there should be a mandatory waiting period when the password protection expires before another could be created, such as a month or two.

This way, it provide the raiders some secured credit when they first occupy the region, but also gives an opportunity in the future for the natives of the region to reclaim it. If a system like that is proposed instead of the abolishment of password protection completely, then the Federation of Scarsaw will approve of it.

I did not say it crudely.. it was colorful! also I did that raid and it was a lot of work... However, I do agree with you, and it would make it more of a challenge to use all the influence on defenders instead of natives.... hhmm... anyways... I am sorry if I upset anyone... adios!

[Hott snows]

We raiders and invaders laugh at your feeble attempts to evict invaders and raiders from conquered regions. The WA has no authority on how regions should be managed and defenders sure as hell don't have that authority. Defenders screwed up a chance to liberate that region and now they must pay for it. Nice try anyway

wow that was interesting and very colorful! however, I a raider do not do that... laugh I mean, but I do hate when defenders invade, like all raiders do... lol... anyways, I think this is stupid, this isn't the first time that Mencer slowly killed off a region, like Zombies for example... I was in charge of that one... but that is besides the point... be nicer Sacaen Somoa, no reason to be a jerk!

[Hott snows]

in response to the ambassador from Hott snows, we disagree that any region should be "slowly killed off" by outsiders. Of course, I see that Hott snows is a member of Mencer, so she is perhaps somewhat biased here.

While we would not be opposed to the solution proposed by the ambassador from Scarsaw, we note that such a resolution is technically impossible at this time. We do not want to sit around for months waiting for a perfect solution to be implemented.

We are amused by the ambassador from Sacaen Somoa's lack of understanding of Security Council powers. The Security Council of the World Assembly very much does have the power to free regions from Delegate-imposed password-protection. While this does not prevent a Delegate from holding their region through the ejection power, it does permit a level playing field. It seems that the imperialists (I will not dignify them with the term "invaders") are frightened of actually having to protect their claims, preferring a lazy "Game Over" approach. We want to see them have to fight if they want to hold their occupied territories.

[float=right][/float][Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Retired Officer, Nasicournia

uumm you can't just take over a region and then password protect it... the nation who becomes delegate has to have enough influence to put a password on a region, so I a pretty sure that we did protect our claims by being very sneaky and clever. Also, I want to apologize on Sacaen Somoa's behalf.... that was very rude and immature of him!

[Hott snows]

The Armed Republic of Mown Lawns is admittedly not a fan of much of what the World Assembly does. In spite of the World Assembly's founding documents promising nations the freedom to decide their own forms of government, religion and culture, proposal after proposal that sails through the (General Assembly?) of the World Assembly regulates the internal affairs of nations in matters ranging from child labor, to "civil rights" to the very definition of marriage.

Therefore, Mown Lawns is speaking here not as a puppet of the WA bureaucrats but as a fiercely indepent sovereign nation. As such, one might expect that we would oppose this proposal out of principle. Far from it. To the extent that the World Assembly or any other collection of sovereign nations has any legtimacy, it is not in passing meddlesome resolutions that most countries will skirt or ignore in their internal affairs. It is in ensuring that certain rules of international relations are observed, and if necessary, enforced. While invasions are part and parcel of our world, they are normally undertaken in an attempt to expand territory, gain resources and above all, for the glory and "fun" of taking over a region and being able to brag about how one toppeled the government of such and such a region X number of years ago. And if invaders can take over a region and hold it against counter-attack, then all the power to them. Victory is justly theirs, and the material fruits of that victory too.

The situation in Belgium, nay, the RAPE of BELGIUM, is not a proper invasion. Having conquered the region, the invaders seem content not to hold it against counter-attack but exploit every means possible to ensure that no counter-attack is possible. Instead of running the region in their own fashion and perhaps becoming accepted as the new, just rulers in time, the invaders only wish to despoil the region for no other purpose than to leave it a barren wasteland advertising their barbarity.

If Mown Lawns had any say in the matter, The World Assembly would confine itself to correcting matters of international import such as this, rather than passing regulations on workplace safety that local officials are better equiped to judge. Frankly, the World Assembly's focus on petty issues such as said pointless resolutions (which Mown Lawns "puts into force" in the loosest way possible within its borders) and commending or condemning nations (which does absolutely nothing to them other than giving them a shiny medal thingy) is hurting Belgium. Scrap every #$%!@ one of these other resolutions and let's move this liberation motion to an immediate vote!

excuse me? no counter attack? Mencer has been in Belguim since like March or something like that.... and it has only been password protected for about a month and maybe a half... so this so called not allowing counter attack is stupid... defenders and the natives could have gotten us out any time they would have like all those months that it was not password protected, so please do not say that it was a rape b/c we didn't just swoop in there and take over, we did it slowly and in a clever way... don't be rude!

[Hott snows]

First off, Hott Snows is a she.
Second, as a response to Scarsaw, I proposed a middle-ground here, but it seems noone agreed with me.

And third, to Sacaen Somoa, I'm sorry to inform you but as of yesterday, a WA resolution can remove a regional password.

So what is lazy?

On one hand, sitting in Belgium for about a year, collecting influence, and in the end taking the delegate position with utter professionalism and precision? Now matter how hard you try to deny it, I DID fight for Belgium. More so than even it's own natives did, to be frank. I even waited for an update to pass, I gave them a CHANCE for a counterattack, eventhough I could have passworded right when I took it.

On the other hand, you got writing a WA proposal and submitting it... yeah, REAL hard work to take over a region. Perhaps, as I stated before, in the future the REAL invaders will be those who do it through a WA proposal. Pathetic.

You kept a puppet live for 'x' amount of time, and won the delegacy, then passworded it to avoid any confrontation. I don't know if there's a raider out there, rusty or not, who can't do that. All it takes is an unhealthy obsession.

I... can't really slice it either way.

you have to be sly too as you bring people in todd mccloud... I've been caught before b/c I just brought people in and got caught... its harder then you think these days... those defenders have gotten a lot better then before.... or obsessed as you said about us raiders... just b/c you don't raid anymore doesn't mean you can be a meanie head to my dysian

[Todd McCloud]

excuse me? no counter attack? Mencer has been in Belguim since like March or something like that.... and it has only been password protected for about a month and maybe a half... so this so called not allowing counter attack is stupid... defenders and the natives could have gotten us out any time they would have like all those months that it was not password protected, so please do not say that it was a rape b/c we didn't just swoop in there and take over, we did it slowly and in a clever way... don't be rude!

Dysia (in either this thread or an earlier one) noted that he only left it non-passworded for 24 hours. Whether or not that's true is probably past history, but it is difficult to get together a good raid in less than 24 hours.

[Hott snows]

I am sorry but that is crap! there are more defenders then raiders... if you did that then raiders would never ever have a chance of successfully invading another region again... I believe that is crap and that if the raider region is smart enough to sit in a region for 3 to 4 months collecting influence then become delegate over night after slowly moving people in to endorse said nation, then I think that we have every right to slowly kill off region. Its our right. We had to work really hard to get as far as we did; I think what is being said is wrong and not fair to the raiders. I vote NO!

But I'm all for making password-grabs tougher.

I'm ok with making password grabs tougher too! I'd rather have that, make the game more fun and more of a challenge. lets do that instead!

[Hott snows]

excuse me? no counter attack? Mencer has been in Belguim since like March or something like that.... and it has only been password protected for about a month and maybe a half... so this so called not allowing counter attack is stupid... defenders and the natives could have gotten us out any time they would have like all those months that it was not password protected, so please do not say that it was a rape b/c we didn't just swoop in there and take over, we did it slowly and in a clever way... don't be rude!

Dysia (in either this thread or an earlier one) noted that he only left it non-passworded for 24 hours. Whether or not that's true is probably past history, but it is difficult to get together a good raid in less than 24 hours.

he never said he got the raid together in 24 hours.. he said he was wa delegate for 24 hours having people come in and endorsing him before he password protected it... ok am I confused now?