PASSED: Liberate belgium

[Jey]

If this has to be part of the game, why not. Meh.

Also, this: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6333#p208724

[Brewdomia]

Yes, I Fully Agree with this resolution

[Libetarian Republics]

Yes, I am in favor of this resolution.

[Dysian]

I also would like to take the opportunity to urge members to sanction Dysean, or whatever it is.

Why I happen to be a person, thank you very much

[Far-Tortuga]

The Space Hulk of Far-Tortuga supports this resolution, and may even consider firing up its warpdrives to lend its firepower in support of an eventual counter-invasion of Belgium. Admittedly, we are at something of a crossroads in the World Assembly's history. Even more than condemnations and commendations, this Liberation will be the most definitive projection of the Assembly's power in recorded history. Never before has the World Assembly been able to influence international politics on the scale that this liberation suggests.

Some will argue that such power is undesirable, that it is better to keep the World Assembly's impotence restricted to its own member-states. But look at it this way: the invasions of Belgium, France, and all other regions that are now little more than scorched earth, were carried out under the supposed auspices of the World Assembly. These invader states abused the trust and responsibilities that World Assembly Delegates are given for the sole purpose of forwarding their own short-sighted racist and destructive agendas.

Honored Ambassadors, it is time that the World Assembly reclaimed its place as a force of righteousness in international politics. We must become an example to be admired and emulated, not by those who are concerned with the safety of double-hulled tankers or the coordination of food relief, but by those who are horrified by oppression and injustice. We must roll back the tide of conquest taken to its most horrifying extreme by Macedon and its allies. We must allow those oppressed peoples of the world, whether they are World Assembly members or not, to have the freedom to determine their own regions, to fly their own flag and to hold their own opinion, without fear of subjugation or wholesale ethnic exile. The world must be made safe for all regions.

~Ambassador Farragut Kriez of the Most Serene Space Hulk Republic of Far-Tortuga.

[Haken Rider]

If Belgium is Liberated I surely hope that many other regions will follow. Gratis België!

He, I see what you did there, you wanted to translate "Free Belgium". I, ofcourse, applaud the intention, but the correct translation would be "Bevrijd België!"

You just offered to give Belgium away for free... Or maybe you wanted to say that... Ah, shucks, free Belgiums for everyone!

---

I hope that it get's passed. I don't mind a good invading now and then, but we don't want to make it too easy now do we? Nobody likes a lazy denfender. This at least will give him some exercise.

[Goobergunchia]

I love it but I could'nt vote for it. FORMAT!!

In most cases, we would agree -- proper formatting, grammar checks, and running a proposal by others before submission is essential to producing a polished final product. But this is not the time for ensuring a polished final product. I believe that not a minute should be lost in liberating Belgium. If the ensuing resolution reflects our haste in doing so, then let it so reflect.

I would also like to thank everybody else for their support so far.

[float=right][/float][Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Retired Officer, Nasicournia

[Dyr Nasad]

FOR, completely. This is a resolution that needs to be passed with as much speed as possible - it really shouldn't have much of a problem passing

[Rutianas]

Normally, I stay out of Security Council proposals, however, the liberate category intrigues me. Considering the past history of those who have invaded the region of Belgium, I have decided to toss in my support on this proposal. It's one step closer to quorum now. Let's get it there and free Belgium.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

[Mown Lawns]

The Armed Republic of Mown Lawns is admittedly not a fan of much of what the World Assembly does. In spite of the World Assembly's founding documents promising nations the freedom to decide their own forms of government, religion and culture, proposal after proposal that sails through the (General Assembly?) of the World Assembly regulates the internal affairs of nations in matters ranging from child labor, to "civil rights" to the very definition of marriage.

Therefore, Mown Lawns is speaking here not as a puppet of the WA bureaucrats but as a fiercely indepent sovereign nation. As such, one might expect that we would oppose this proposal out of principle. Far from it. To the extent that the World Assembly or any other collection of sovereign nations has any legtimacy, it is not in passing meddlesome resolutions that most countries will skirt or ignore in their internal affairs. It is in ensuring that certain rules of international relations are observed, and if necessary, enforced. While invasions are part and parcel of our world, they are normally undertaken in an attempt to expand territory, gain resources and above all, for the glory and "fun" of taking over a region and being able to brag about how one toppeled the government of such and such a region X number of years ago. And if invaders can take over a region and hold it against counter-attack, then all the power to them. Victory is justly theirs, and the material fruits of that victory too.

The situation in Belgium, nay, the RAPE of BELGIUM, is not a proper invasion. Having conquered the region, the invaders seem content not to hold it against counter-attack but exploit every means possible to ensure that no counter-attack is possible. Instead of running the region in their own fashion and perhaps becoming accepted as the new, just rulers in time, the invaders only wish to despoil the region for no other purpose than to leave it a barren wasteland advertising their barbarity.

If Mown Lawns had any say in the matter, The World Assembly would confine itself to correcting matters of international import such as this, rather than passing regulations on workplace safety that local officials are better equiped to judge. Frankly, the World Assembly's focus on petty issues such as said pointless resolutions (which Mown Lawns "puts into force" in the loosest way possible within its borders) and commending or condemning nations (which does absolutely nothing to them other than giving them a shiny medal thingy) is hurting Belgium. Scrap every #$%!@ one of these other resolutions and let's move this liberation motion to an immediate vote!

[Dyr Nasad]

*flinch*-there is such thing as being overzealous, but it's good to see support for this

I hope that this receives the same amount of support from the rest of the NS voting population!

[Hott snows]

I am sorry but that is crap! there are more defenders then raiders... if you did that then raiders would never ever have a chance of successfully invading another region again... I believe that is crap and that if the raider region is smart enough to sit in a region for 3 to 4 months collecting influence then become delegate over night after slowly moving people in to endorse said nation, then I think that we have every right to slowly kill off region. Its our right. We had to work really hard to get as far as we did; I think what is being said is wrong and not fair to the raiders. I vote NO!

[Scarsaw]

The Federation of Scarsaw does not agree with the proposed resolution, but does acknowledge that something must be done to help the recently occupied region. I believe that raiders should get some secured credit when a region is successfully occupied as, Hott snows crudely stated, it takes quite a lot of effort and time for a raider to properly overtake a region. With that said, I would support a resolution stating that password protection can not be used for more than a limited stretch of time, such as a month or two. Also, to prevent abuse of the password protection, there should be a mandatory waiting period when the password protection expires before another could be created, such as a month or two.

This way, it provide the raiders some secured credit when they first occupy the region, but also gives an opportunity in the future for the natives of the region to reclaim it. If a system like that is proposed instead of the abolishment of password protection completely, then the Federation of Scarsaw will approve of it.

[Sacaen Somoa]

We raiders and invaders laugh at your feeble attempts to evict invaders and raiders from conquered regions. The WA has no authority on how regions should be managed and defenders sure as hell don't have that authority. Defenders screwed up a chance to liberate that region and now they must pay for it. Nice try anyway

[Goobergunchia]

in response to the ambassador from Hott snows, we disagree that any region should be "slowly killed off" by outsiders. Of course, I see that Hott snows is a member of Mencer, so she is perhaps somewhat biased here.

While we would not be opposed to the solution proposed by the ambassador from Scarsaw, we note that such a resolution is technically impossible at this time. We do not want to sit around for months waiting for a perfect solution to be implemented.

We are amused by the ambassador from Sacaen Somoa's lack of understanding of Security Council powers. The Security Council of the World Assembly very much does have the power to free regions from Delegate-imposed password-protection. While this does not prevent a Delegate from holding their region through the ejection power, it does permit a level playing field. It seems that the imperialists (I will not dignify them with the term "invaders") are frightened of actually having to protect their claims, preferring a lazy "Game Over" approach. We want to see them have to fight if they want to hold their occupied territories.

[float=right][/float][Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Retired Officer, Nasicournia

[Todd McCloud]

We raiders and invaders laugh at your feeble attempts to evict invaders and raiders from conquered regions. The WA has no authority on how regions should be managed and defenders sure as hell don't have that authority. Defenders screwed up a chance to liberate that region and now they must pay for it. Nice try anyway

This is not a fight against raiders. This is about password-grabbing a region.

[Todd McCloud]

I am sorry but that is crap! there are more defenders then raiders... if you did that then raiders would never ever have a chance of successfully invading another region again... I believe that is crap and that if the raider region is smart enough to sit in a region for 3 to 4 months collecting influence then become delegate over night after slowly moving people in to endorse said nation, then I think that we have every right to slowly kill off region. Its our right. We had to work really hard to get as far as we did; I think what is being said is wrong and not fair to the raiders. I vote NO!

This actually doesn't do anything to affect the raiding game. Once again, a password-grab is not a raid. It is humiliating to me, a former raider, to call that a raid, as far as I'm concerned.

Raiders raid, in part, for the challenge and to show their skills at holding a region. There is zero skill in a password-grab. A three-year old can log into a nation every day. Anyone can put a puppet in a founderless region and update it accordingly every 60 days or so.

Most raiders will take a region, even if for the heck of it, and fight to maintain it. Not many raiders raid to refound anymore, but some do. Nearly all of the time a password is put into play when either (a) one or two natives are there, who have a ton of influence and putting a password in place costs less influence. Region has basically had enough time to liberate itself though. Or (b) when there are zero natives in the region. Even SFBA followed that pattern. Password only needs to be up for a while then, enough time to work out a refound, which Macedon tried, and failed, with France. See what happens when one lets his or her skills go to rust?

So this will not affect raids, and as long as I'm in this game, raiding, as a faction in gameplay, will never die. But I'm all for making password-grabs tougher.

[Dysian]

First off, Hott Snows is a she.
Second, as a response to Scarsaw, I proposed a middle-ground here, but it seems noone agreed with me.

And third, to Sacaen Somoa, I'm sorry to inform you but as of yesterday, a WA resolution can remove a regional password.

So what is lazy?

On one hand, sitting in Belgium for about a year, collecting influence, and in the end taking the delegate position with utter professionalism and precision? Now matter how hard you try to deny it, I DID fight for Belgium. More so than even it's own natives did, to be frank. I even waited for an update to pass, I gave them a CHANCE for a counterattack, eventhough I could have passworded right when I took it.

On the other hand, you got writing a WA proposal and submitting it... yeah, REAL hard work to take over a region. Perhaps, as I stated before, in the future the REAL invaders will be those who do it through a WA proposal. Pathetic.

[Todd McCloud]

First off, Hott Snows is a she.
Second, as a response to Scarsaw, I proposed a middle-ground here, but it seems noone agreed with me.

And third, to Sacaen Somoa, I'm sorry to inform you but as of yesterday, a WA resolution can remove a regional password.

So what is lazy?

On one hand, sitting in Belgium for about a year, collecting influence, and in the end taking the delegate position with utter professionalism and precision? Now matter how hard you try to deny it, I DID fight for Belgium. More so than even it's own natives did, to be frank. I even waited for an update to pass, I gave them a CHANCE for a counterattack, eventhough I could have passworded right when I took it.

On the other hand, you got writing a WA proposal and submitting it... yeah, REAL hard work to take over a region. Perhaps, as I stated before, in the future the REAL invaders will be those who do it through a WA proposal. Pathetic.

You kept a puppet live for 'x' amount of time, and won the delegacy, then passworded it to avoid any confrontation. I don't know if there's a raider out there, rusty or not, who can't do that. All it takes is an unhealthy obsession.

I... can't really slice it either way.

[Weylara]

I am in outright favour of this, too. Brave of you to do what others have contemplated ever since the event. Also, I express my forecast, and with it some concern, that this will turn into an all-out crusade against Macedon. My concern is because this will set a precedent, allowing anyone with a grudge to submit a proposal against a region in the same manner.

[Todd McCloud]

I am in outright favour of this, too. Brave of you to do what others have contemplated ever since the event. Also, I express my forecast, and with it some concern, that this will turn into an all-out crusade against Macedon. My concern is because this will set a precedent, allowing anyone with a grudge to submit a proposal against a region in the same manner.

Well, anyone can submit a proposal against a region, but the trouble is first getting it to quorum, which is hard to do with regions that seem to be running fine, then voted on in the resolution, which is even harder. That system kind of protects it from being abused.

I really see this only being used for regions which have undergone 'password grabs', where the password is put into place early on for unskilled empire builders.

[Ardchoille]

Oh my, a WA resolution can actually REMOVE password from a region? AND keep it from being re-installed? Whats next, I submit a WA resolution that I want to be the founder of every single region in this game, and if it passes, that actually happens?First they make update time 6 am, now this. This is all a conspiracy against me

It has been explained to me that some gameplayers may see the above as having been posted IC, as it is posted under the name of the nation, not the name of the person who plays it. However, the statement itself appears to me to come from the player, not the nation (for example, the nation would be saying "us", not "me").

As we don't yet have rules for the conduct of the SC, there are no requirements that even formal debate on a resolution At Vote should be conducted by the nations. However, the risk of posting as the player, not as the nation, is that it leads to statements like these:

There has to be pretty significant public support for something like this to pass so I don't think its exactly unfair. It'll be a good lesson in life for you Dysian, if you manage to piss enough people off then no matter how safe you think you are, the roof will eventually come down on you.

[Yeah, you actually have to *try* now, you know, like raiders do. Not by password-grabbing a region and sitting there. Can't expose inadequacy that way!

Both of those appear to be addressed to the player behind the nation, even though one refers to the player by his nation's name. The underlined parts, therefore, cannot be read as the sort of mildly aggressive to-and-fro one might expect between the ambassadors of opposing nations: they are player-to-player interactions, and as such, they are at risk of being classified as flaming or flamebait, with the attendant penalties.

If many players choose to post in this "voice", and the SC accepts it, so be it; this is new ground for all of us. However, if you address the player, not the argument, understand that mods will respond to your posts in the same way as we respond to such posts in General.

I would strongly recommend that the SC adopt a tradition of formality in At Vote threads. It puts a slight filter between the brain that formulates an insult and the fingers that type it, and may save some players from unwanted time out.

If you want to debate issues raised in this post, rather than the proposal before the council, please do so in this thread or, possibly, this one.

In the meantime, maintain politeness, please, while debating the proposal.

[Weylara]

Acknowledged, Todd McCloud. This would then effectively....eliminate all password-grabbers?

[Todd McCloud]

snip

Very well, address the nation, not 'the player behind said nation', essentially?

[Todd McCloud]

Acknowledged, Todd McCloud. This would then effectively....eliminate all password-grabbers?

I believe so. This won't harm raiding nations or regions on their style. I wouldn't support it if I felt it did. Truly, this harms password-grabbers and imperialists the most.