[DEFEATED] Liberate Ukraine (by United Terinova/RiderSyl)

[Tinhampton]

Defeated on 21st February 2022: FOR 2,487 (17.1%) --- AGAINST 11,982 (82.9%)

Ukraine is a region with a stable founder and a unoccupied, non-executive and toothless WA Delegacy. This appears to be a response to real-life events more than a flare-up of impendent on-site doom. (The author is a Border Control regional officer under the aegis of "Mystic Syl" in The Mystical Council.)

Liberate Ukraine
A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region.

Category: Liberation

Nominee: Ukraine

Proposed by: United Terinova

---

The Security Council,

CONCERNED about the situation developing in [region=Ukraine],

ASSERTING that the sovereignty of [region=Ukraine] should be solidified by this august body,

ASSURING those in [region=Ukraine] that no incursion by invaders will lead to their destruction,

SEEKING to take preventative action with this pre-emptive liberation resolution,

WISHING our Ukrainian brothers and sisters safety and security in all facets,

Hereby Liberates [region=Ukraine].

Father Putin sent out the following campaign telegram to tag:delegates at 06:51:58 GMT on Sunday; it appears to have succeeded in getting this proposal 60% of the way to quorum by now:

Greetings delegates of the World Assembly,

We have proposed a World Assembly Liberation to support our allies in the historic region of Ukraine against invasion from malicious forces, & to ensure much warranted visibility in the current tumultuous climate.

Raiders are known to capitalize off external factors to exploit small, historically significant regions; Ukraine is a likely candidate for a future invasion after they vacate The Mystical Council, in which over 200 invading nations were levied in under 24 hours. If this happens in Ukraine, liberating organizations will not be able to respond in time without a preemptive liberation to ensure the safety of the region.

A liberation on Ukraine would prevent it from being put under a password by bad actors, and it will force current raider leadership to look into more defensible targets in the future, in addition to ensuring visibility for good causes. It is for this rationale that I implore this august body to approve Liberate Ukraine.

If you have any questions, please reply to this telegram!

From Russia with love,
Father Putin

[Malphe II]

Yeah this is an extremely weird proposal, doesn't seem to know if it wants to be a response to IRL events or a weird response to R/D stuff. I'm sure it'll be voted down, and if it isn't then Ukraine has a stable founder anyways so idk what this achieves.

[Outer Sparta]

Interesting take based off on RL events but seeing as the region Ukraine is not in any turmoil (unless some raiders from a Russian region seemingly invade and occupy it), I will be voting against.

[RiderSyl]

Hiya! Author of the proposal here. Thanks for approving this, delegates! My apologies to my SC colleagues for skipping the drafting phase. I simply didn't see much use in that phase for this one.

This proposal is entirely written within the scope of in-game details, referring to in-game details, from the perspective of the SC - yet the dangerous event in the game as described is indeed near-impossible right now, as Tinhampton pointed out.

It's not completely impossible, of course - Ukraine suffers from inactivity, which discourages active regional security. Their founder can CTE, making the game automatically give executive power back to the delegate. Then, they could find themselves occupied, and with what's going on IRL, the topical humor in "occupying Ukraine" would be an incentive to do just that.

I will admit this is somewhat symbolic as well due to RL circumstances, and I thought about writing this up as a Declaration at first. A Declaration wouldn't actually protect the region in the future, though.

If you're going to point out the irony in me being an RO in TMC and trying to pass a pre-emptive liberation with such defender talking points, don't worry, I'm well aware I'm a walking contradiction.

[Outer Sparta]

Hiya! Author of the proposal here. Thanks for approving this, delegates! My apologies to my SC colleagues for skipping the drafting phase. I simply didn't see much use in that phase for this one.

This proposal is entirely written within the scope of in-game details, referring to in-game details, from the perspective of the SC - yet the dangerous event in the game as described is indeed near-impossible right now, as Tinhampton pointed out.

It's not completely impossible, of course - Ukraine suffers from inactivity, which discourages active regional security. Their founder can CTE, making the game automatically give executive power back to the delegate. Then, they could find themselves occupied, and with what's going on IRL, the topical humor in "occupying Ukraine" would be an incentive to do just that.

I will admit this is somewhat symbolic as well due to RL circumstances, and I thought about writing this up as a Declaration at first. A Declaration wouldn't actually protect the region in the future, though.

If you're going to point out the irony in me being an RO in TMC and trying to pass a pre-emptive liberation with such defender talking points, don't worry, I'm well aware I'm a walking contradiction.

While I am in opposition, I do like your creativity in managing to incorporate a RL situation and even tying it back into NS itself.

[Lenlyvit]

All this is is a ploy to delay the passage of Liberate TMC by a further four days. Now instead of Liberate TMC passing eight days from today, it will pass twelve days from now. Which is an almost two week window for the raiders in TMC.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

All this is is a ploy to delay the passage of Liberate TMC by a further four days. Now instead of Liberate TMC passing eight days from today, it will pass twelve days from now. Which is an almost two week window for the raiders in TMC.

Actually it’s extended to 16. Four for the present one, four for Syl’s proposal, four for Condemn Suspicious, which has reached quorum and then another four before Liberate AMC gets passed.

I’m going to give you a 7/10 for the proposal Syl, and a 10/10 for the justification, very inventive.

I thought BoM were doing a DEN with their jump point Condemnation i.e. publicity only, but now it makes sense with it going to be voted on.

[RiderSyl]

All this is is a ploy to delay the passage of Liberate TMC by a further four days. Now instead of Liberate TMC passing eight days from today, it will pass twelve days from now. Which is an almost two week window for the raiders in TMC.

I'm going to have to push back on the idea that this is only a ploy. The concept behind this proposal has been floating around in my brain for years, and the meta-gaming going on with the queue right now means there are people eager to help me get it to the queue. I'm taking the opportunity in front of me. That's all.

If I was submitting something purely for the queue-stacking, I would pick a safer and more boring concept.

I’m going to give you a 7/10 for the proposal Syl, and a 10/10 for the justification, very inventive.

Thank you BBD!

[WayNeacTia]

All this is is a ploy to delay the passage of Liberate TMC by a further four days. Now instead of Liberate TMC passing eight days from today, it will pass twelve days from now. Which is an almost two week window for the raiders in TMC.

I'm going to have to push back on the idea that this is only a ploy. The concept behind this proposal has been floating around in my brain for years, and the meta-gaming going on with the queue right now means there are people eager to help me get it to the queue. I'm taking the opportunity in front of me. That's all.

If I was submitting something purely for the queue-stacking, I would pick a safer and more boring concept.

I’m going to give you a 7/10 for the proposal Syl, and a 10/10 for the justification, very inventive.

Thank you BBD!

Full support.

[Astrobolt]

So this a) is not drafted, b) lacks verifiable native support, and c) is capitalizing off an RL crisis that will likely cost thousands of lives.

No support.

[Apatosaurus]

Can we seriously be assured that this is not also trying to spam the queue to delay Liberate TMC from getting to vote?

All this is is a ploy to delay the passage of Liberate TMC by a further four days. Now instead of Liberate TMC passing eight days from today, it will pass twelve days from now. Which is an almost two week window for the raiders in TMC.

I'm going to have to push back on the idea that this is only a ploy. The concept behind this proposal has been floating around in my brain for years, and the meta-gaming going on with the queue right now means there are people eager to help me get it to the queue. I'm taking the opportunity in front of me. That's all.

Then why wasn't this drafted in the forums, why did you wait until now to submit it, and why are raiders campaigning for this?

If I was submitting something purely for the queue-stacking, I would pick a safer and more boring concept.

Not "purely", but "partially"? "Significantly"? "Mainly"?

[RiderSyl]

c) is capitalizing off an RL crisis that will likely cost thousands of lives.

I didn't expect to have to say this, but that's on me for overestimating the internet - I am not capitalizing off an RL crisis. Personally, I stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine and their right to a sovereign nation, and I do not want to see the digital version of their nation on this website degraded soon or years from now because "lol funny parallel".

Then why wasn't this drafted in the forums, why did you wait until now to submit it, and why are raiders campaigning for this?

Because proposals that will inevitably tap-dance SC legality don't benefit from drafting, because I haven't become re-interested in NS until recently, and because it delays Liberate TMC.

[Lenlyvit]

All this is is a ploy to delay the passage of Liberate TMC by a further four days. Now instead of Liberate TMC passing eight days from today, it will pass twelve days from now. Which is an almost two week window for the raiders in TMC.

Actually it’s extended to 16. Four for the present one, four for Syl’s proposal, four for Condemn Suspicious, which has reached quorum and then another four before Liberate AMC gets passed.

I’m going to give you a 7/10 for the proposal Syl, and a 10/10 for the justification, very inventive.

I thought BoM were doing a DEN with their jump point Condemnation i.e. publicity only, but now it makes sense with it going to be voted on.

Missed that getting to queue, thanks for the correction BBD.

All this is is a ploy to delay the passage of Liberate TMC by a further four days. Now instead of Liberate TMC passing eight days from today, it will pass twelve days from now. Which is an almost two week window for the raiders in TMC.

I'm going to have to push back on the idea that this is only a ploy. The concept behind this proposal has been floating around in my brain for years, and the meta-gaming going on with the queue right now means there are people eager to help me get it to the queue. I'm taking the opportunity in front of me. That's all.

If I was submitting something purely for the queue-stacking, I would pick a safer and more boring concept.

I’m going to give you a 7/10 for the proposal Syl, and a 10/10 for the justification, very inventive.

Thank you BBD!

And I'm going to push back on you saying that this proposal is for legitimate purposes, other than to push back the queue on liberate TMC along with the other proposal being pushed by the raider delegate. An easy to spot ploy is easy to spot, you're purposefully pushing proposals into queue in order to push back the passage of Liberate TMC and it's pretty obvious. Especially when you pick a region named Ukraine and write it like this when we have a real world issue in Ukraine right now with Russia on their border.

Edit:

c) is capitalizing off an RL crisis that will likely cost thousands of lives.

I didn't expect to have to say this, but that's on me for overestimating the internet - I am not capitalizing off an RL crisis. Personally, I stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine and their right to a sovereign nation, and I do not want to see the digital version of their nation on this website degraded soon or years from now because "lol funny parallel".

Then why wasn't this drafted in the forums, why did you wait until now to submit it, and why are raiders campaigning for this?

Because proposals that will inevitably tap-dance SC legality don't benefit from drafting, because I haven't become re-interested in NS until recently, and because it delays Liberate TMC.

And here's the proof, bolded for evidence.

[RiderSyl]

I'm going to have to push back on the idea that this is only a ploy. The concept behind this proposal has been floating around in my brain for years, and the meta-gaming going on with the queue right now means there are people eager to help me get it to the queue. I'm taking the opportunity in front of me. That's all.

If I was submitting something purely for the queue-stacking, I would pick a safer and more boring concept.


Thank you BBD!

And I'm going to push back on you saying that this proposal is for legitimate purposes, other than to push back the queue on liberate TMC along with the other proposal being pushed by the raider delegate. An easy to spot ploy is easy to spot, you're purposefully pushing proposals into queue in order to push back the passage of Liberate TMC and it's pretty obvious. Especially when you pick a region named Ukraine and write it like this when we have a real world issue in Ukraine right now with Russia on their border.

All the points you made here are ones I've already addressed, so instead of just repeating myself in response to you and sending us into a circular argument, I encourage you to look at my other posts above. Thanks.

Edit:

I didn't expect to have to say this, but that's on me for overestimating the internet - I am not capitalizing off an RL crisis. Personally, I stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine and their right to a sovereign nation, and I do not want to see the digital version of their nation on this website degraded soon or years from now because "lol funny parallel".


Because proposals that will inevitably tap-dance SC legality don't benefit from drafting, because I haven't become re-interested in NS until recently, and because it delays Liberate TMC.

And here's the proof, bolded for evidence.

Your post already quoted the context that you took out of the evidence that you presented later, out-of-context, in the edit to the same post. That's not great.

the context you already quoted: "the meta-gaming going on with the queue right now means there are people eager to help me get it to the queue. I'm taking the opportunity in front of me. That's all."

the out-of-context evidence: "Raiders are campaigning for my proposal because it delays Liberate TMC"

Yes, hello? I'd like to return your "Gotcha". It was delivered in poor condition.

[Penguin Dictators]

Gonna have to pass on this and the other one. Between both proposals being not really the most well written and the timing being too coincidental as Lenlyvit pointed out, I was already on the fence. Those on top of the random Discord message from someone I've never talked to just asking me to approve both of those proposals, which is as annoying to me as TGing folks asking them to vote a specific way, makes me want to both not approve either but vote in opposition out of principle if they get enough approvals (which it looks as if this one did).

[RiderSyl]

Those on top of the random Discord message from someone I've never talked to just asking me to approve both of those proposals, which is as annoying to me as TGing folks asking them to vote a specific way, makes me want to both not approve either but vote in opposition out of principle if they get enough approvals (which it looks as if this one did).

Yikes, sorry about that. I honestly was jumping at the opportunity to put this out there because of the boost raiderdom would provide my proposal in getting to queue, but I guess a downside to that is you have people inexperienced at SC campaigning that are doing exactly that. In future proposals, I'll make sure you're excluded from campaigns.

[Hulldom]

Frankly, I think it's a disgusting tactic. Especially so since it capitalizes on an OOC situation to delay something IC.

I understand the desire to delay the Liberation to vote, but it doesn't dissuade those of us already not exactly fond of raiderdom that we should even trust their work in the SC when innocuous.

That's on me though, guess I'll have to step on the counter-campaigning medal faster and harder next time.

[Penguin Dictators]

Those on top of the random Discord message from someone I've never talked to just asking me to approve both of those proposals, which is as annoying to me as TGing folks asking them to vote a specific way, makes me want to both not approve either but vote in opposition out of principle if they get enough approvals (which it looks as if this one did).

Yikes, sorry about that. I honestly was jumping at the opportunity to put this out there because of the boost raiderdom would provide my proposal in getting to queue, but I guess a downside to that is you have people inexperienced at SC campaigning that are doing exactly that. In future proposals, I'll make sure you're excluded from campaigns.

No worries. I don't mind it as much when I get the pings in something like, say a specific Discord server to talk about WA stuff, being as that's the whole point I joined.

But yeah, random DMs are usually just a surefire way to lose me pretty instantly.

[Astrobolt]

c) is capitalizing off an RL crisis that will likely cost thousands of lives.

I didn't expect to have to say this, but that's on me for overestimating the internet - I am not capitalizing off an RL crisis. Personally, I stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine and their right to a sovereign nation, and I do not want to see the digital version of their nation on this website degraded soon or years from now because "lol funny parallel".

With all due respect, you aren’t convincing anyone. You, a BC RO in TMC have everything to gain if Liberate TMC is delayed. At the very least, the optics are abysmal, with raiders seeming to use RL misery to win in a game.

Moreover, liberating Ukraine does nothing since they have an executive founder, and if you actually care about Ukraine the region, you should have gotten support from natives.

[Thousand Branches]

Is this just a filibuster? It seems like just a filibuster… that being said, yeah definitely against for capitalizing off of rl events.

[RiderSyl]

With all due respect, you aren’t convincing anyone. You, a BC RO in TMC have everything to gain if Liberate TMC is delayed. At the very least, the optics are abysmal, with raiders seeming to use RL misery to win in a game.

Frankly, I think it's a disgusting tactic. Especially so since it capitalizes on an OOC situation to delay something IC.

I understand the desire to delay the Liberation to vote, but it doesn't dissuade those of us already not exactly fond of raiderdom that we should even trust their work in the SC when innocuous.

That's on me though, guess I'll have to step on the counter-campaigning medal faster and harder next time.

Is this just a filibuster? It seems like just a filibuster… that being said, yeah definitely against for capitalizing off of rl events.

Okay, no more arguing with you people. I know why I submitted this. I'm going to sit back, collect receipts, and when it is painstakingly obvious that this bullshit attack on my morals and my character is and was off-base, I'm going to be expecting apologies from y'all. Not backtracking. No if, ands, or buts. Apologies. Ya got that?

[Thousand Branches]

With all due respect, you aren’t convincing anyone. You, a BC RO in TMC have everything to gain if Liberate TMC is delayed. At the very least, the optics are abysmal, with raiders seeming to use RL misery to win in a game.

Frankly, I think it's a disgusting tactic. Especially so since it capitalizes on an OOC situation to delay something IC.

I understand the desire to delay the Liberation to vote, but it doesn't dissuade those of us already not exactly fond of raiderdom that we should even trust their work in the SC when innocuous.

That's on me though, guess I'll have to step on the counter-campaigning medal faster and harder next time.

Is this just a filibuster? It seems like just a filibuster… that being said, yeah definitely against for capitalizing off of rl events.

Okay, no more arguing with you people. I know why I submitted this. I'm going to sit back, collect receipts, and when it is painstakingly obvious that this bullshit attack on my morals and my character is and was off-base, I'm going to be expecting apologies from y'all. Not backtracking. No if, ands, or buts. Apologies. Ya got that?

Ftr, my post there was absolutely not a judgment of your moral character. For one, I keep OOC things far far away from IC ones, and for two, this is a pure judgment of the proposal, not of you. I don’t and never have liked SC proposals that mention irl stuff, it just feels disingenuous to the idea that NS is its own separate world and especially in cases like these, it introduces an element of OOC politics that I absolutely hate to interact with. I play NS because I don’t care for irl politics, so why would I want them in an admittedly thinly veiled SC proposal?

As for the filibuster comments, I don’t take them back but also… nothing to do with moral character

[Hulldom]

Okay, no more arguing with you people. I know why I submitted this. I'm going to sit back, collect receipts, and when it is painstakingly obvious that this bullshit attack on my morals and my character is and was off-base, I'm going to be expecting apologies from y'all. Not backtracking. No if, ands, or buts. Apologies. Ya got that?

Ftr, my post there was absolutely not a judgment of your moral character. For one, I keep OOC things far far away from IC ones, and for two, this is a pure judgment of the proposal, not of you. I don’t and never have liked SC proposals that mention irl stuff, it just feels disingenuous to the idea that NS is its own separate world and especially in cases like these, it introduces an element of OOC politics that I absolutely hate to interact with. I play NS because I don’t care for irl politics, so why would I want them in an admittedly thinly veiled SC proposal?

As for the filibuster comments, I don’t take them back but also… nothing to do with moral character

Precisely this. Apologies if it came off as an attack on your character, but it is an attack on the tactic itself. Additionally, I think it’s pretty clear this proposal is written OOC.

[Malphe II]

Ftr, my post there was absolutely not a judgment of your moral character. For one, I keep OOC things far far away from IC ones, and for two, this is a pure judgment of the proposal, not of you. I don’t and never have liked SC proposals that mention irl stuff, it just feels disingenuous to the idea that NS is its own separate world and especially in cases like these, it introduces an element of OOC politics that I absolutely hate to interact with. I play NS because I don’t care for irl politics, so why would I want them in an admittedly thinly veiled SC proposal?

As for the filibuster comments, I don’t take them back but also… nothing to do with moral character

Precisely this. Apologies if it came off as an attack on your character, but it is an attack on the tactic itself. Additionally, I think it’s pretty clear this proposal is written OOC.

I think it's vague enough that it just about dodges 4th wall rules? The only problem child might be CONCERNED about the situation developing in Ukraine, which I assume is responsible for the holdup on a legality ruling, but it doesn't reference any specific OOC events or anything so I think it's prolly fine.

[Outer Sparta]

Precisely this. Apologies if it came off as an attack on your character, but it is an attack on the tactic itself. Additionally, I think it’s pretty clear this proposal is written OOC.

I think it's vague enough that it just about dodges 4th wall rules? The only problem child might be CONCERNED about the situation developing in Ukraine, which I assume is responsible for the holdup on a legality ruling, but it doesn't reference any specific OOC events or anything so I think it's prolly fine.

That is indeed the fuzzy aspect of the proposal since in NS there's no situation developing in Ukraine, not as this moment.