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by Abacathea » Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:56 pm
by Bananaistan » Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:12 pm
Abacathea wrote:I am reliably informed there is a counter campaign running against this, so it is entirely possible I may not make it to quorum. If that is the case so be it. I am a man of my word and will not force the issue any more so than I already have.
by Bears Armed » Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:53 am
Bananaistan wrote:Abacathea wrote:I am reliably informed there is a counter campaign running against this, so it is entirely possible I may not make it to quorum. If that is the case so be it. I am a man of my word and will not force the issue any more so than I already have.
OOC: This is disappointing. There could be a far better replacement but obviously someone wants to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend everything is great.
Edit: Thought I had already edited this. That Aba won't continue the repeal is the disappointing bit. GC is ofc fully entitled to campaign against the repeal. That I think there could be a much better replacement is irrelevant to that.
by The Python » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:12 am
Bears Armed wrote:Bananaistan wrote:
OOC: This is disappointing. There could be a far better replacement but obviously someone wants to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend everything is great.
Edit: Thought I had already edited this. That Aba won't continue the repeal is the disappointing bit. GC is ofc fully entitled to campaign against the repeal. That I think there could be a much better replacement is irrelevant to that.
OOC: It's currently only 1 approval short of quorum, so there's still hope of it reaching the floor.
by Abacathea » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:19 am
by Greater Cesnica » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:27 pm
Abacathea wrote:The Python wrote:Seems to have reached quorum 4 hours ago.
Only two questions remain so, will it stay there, and will it survive the vote.
Edit; Can confirm this is still being campaigned against and thanks to a program a kind member nation have me access to 13 delegates have removed their approval. Again cest la vie.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”
by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:09 am
by Tinhampton » Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:39 am
by Abacathea » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:02 pm
Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:"This repeal attempt doesn't even pretend to do a good job at addressing the actual case for decriminalizing drugs, and instead relies on the genetic fallacy, attacking the resolution's tone and language instead of actually trying to refute the central point of the debate. For this reason, it would be foolish to roll back a direly needed reform based on "I don't like it", and given that the repeal proponents have presented zero concrete arguments for why the Drug Decriminalization Act should be repealed asides from logical fallacies, and the fact it was passed with a overwhelming >65% supermajority, this flawed repeal attempt should be rejected with haste."
by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:00 am
Abacathea wrote:Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:"This repeal attempt doesn't even pretend to do a good job at addressing the actual case for decriminalizing drugs, and instead relies on the genetic fallacy, attacking the resolution's tone and language instead of actually trying to refute the central point of the debate. For this reason, it would be foolish to roll back a direly needed reform based on "I don't like it", and given that the repeal proponents have presented zero concrete arguments for why the Drug Decriminalization Act should be repealed asides from logical fallacies, and the fact it was passed with a overwhelming >65% supermajority, this flawed repeal attempt should be rejected with haste."
You’re right it doesn’t. Because a repeal cannot target issues outside of the target resolution. That would be illegal per GA rules.
It does however have a number of points that targets the actual proposal. Perhaps you should go back and read it? I would also recommend whilst you’re in the mood for some light reading perhaps some light calculus too, 65% does not a “supermajority” make ambassador.
by Imperium Anglorum » Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:15 am
by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:03 pm
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Just lol if you think the target resolution is evidence-based reform.
by Bananaistan » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:30 pm
by Abacathea » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:50 pm
by Untecna » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:13 pm
Abacathea wrote:Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:"At this point, the "War on Drugs" is a self-evident failure, unless the Ambassador has been living under a rock for the past few decades."
And you think the alternative is the solution? Simply decriminalize and leave people off to it? I can assure you I have more than enough experience in the field to know exactly the societal consequences of drug abuse. Lawful or otherwise.
by Bananaistan » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:18 pm
Untecna wrote:Abacathea wrote:
And you think the alternative is the solution? Simply decriminalize and leave people off to it? I can assure you I have more than enough experience in the field to know exactly the societal consequences of drug abuse. Lawful or otherwise.
Criminalizing drugs does not, and will not, prevent people from attaining drugs, which is a major issue to such IRL things as the War on Drugs. In terms of NS, that would still apply.
It's like banning guns. People will still get their hands on guns somehow, so why ban them or criminalize them?
Another point I'd like to bring up is that if you criminalize something, you immediately remove any norms or restrictions that were on that thing. In this case, anyone could consume drugs, no matter the age, gender, race, ethnicity, anything of that sort. If you don't believe me, check out the Prohibition in 1920s and 30s America. Alcohol was criminalized, but everyone still had it, and everyone consumed it. The reason it failed was because of these two points I've made.
by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:21 pm
Bananaistan wrote:Untecna wrote:Criminalizing drugs does not, and will not, prevent people from attaining drugs, which is a major issue to such IRL things as the War on Drugs. In terms of NS, that would still apply.
It's like banning guns. People will still get their hands on guns somehow, so why ban them or criminalize them?
Another point I'd like to bring up is that if you criminalize something, you immediately remove any norms or restrictions that were on that thing. In this case, anyone could consume drugs, no matter the age, gender, race, ethnicity, anything of that sort. If you don't believe me, check out the Prohibition in 1920s and 30s America. Alcohol was criminalized, but everyone still had it, and everyone consumed it. The reason it failed was because of these two points I've made.
OOC: And yet many countries IRL have successfully severely restricted guns.
by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:26 pm
Abacathea wrote:Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:"At this point, the "War on Drugs" is a self-evident failure, unless the Ambassador has been living under a rock for the past few decades."
And you think the alternative is the solution? Simply decriminalize and leave people off to it? I can assure you I have more than enough experience in the field to know exactly the societal consequences of drug abuse. Lawful or otherwise.
by Abacathea » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:21 am
Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:Abacathea wrote:
And you think the alternative is the solution? Simply decriminalize and leave people off to it? I can assure you I have more than enough experience in the field to know exactly the societal consequences of drug abuse. Lawful or otherwise.
"With all due respect, Ambassador, throwing people in inhumane cages and leaving them to be brutalized in abusive prisons instead of actually treating their underlying addiction and resolving any socioeconomic problems they have is not an answer that would actually accomplish a world without drugs, quite the contrary. All it would result in is embolden dangerous drug cartels to take over all drug-related production and rake in enormous profits and influence as demand remains unbroken, while entire communities would be ripped apart by police brutality and human rights abuses, with the people being arrested ending up even worse than before they were imprisoned to begin with, in most cases becoming violent criminals immediately after release. Recriminalizing drugs and violently persecuting drug users who never actually hurt anyone would be the equivalent of shooting oneself in the crotch, and the only entity that would actually benefit from this chaos are the cartels themselves. For this reason, your repeal attempt is simply misguided, and should be struck down with prejudice."
by Barfleur » Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:42 pm
Abacathea wrote:Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:"With all due respect, Ambassador, throwing people in inhumane cages and leaving them to be brutalized in abusive prisons instead of actually treating their underlying addiction and resolving any socioeconomic problems they have is not an answer that would actually accomplish a world without drugs, quite the contrary. All it would result in is embolden dangerous drug cartels to take over all drug-related production and rake in enormous profits and influence as demand remains unbroken, while entire communities would be ripped apart by police brutality and human rights abuses, with the people being arrested ending up even worse than before they were imprisoned to begin with, in most cases becoming violent criminals immediately after release. Recriminalizing drugs and violently persecuting drug users who never actually hurt anyone would be the equivalent of shooting oneself in the crotch, and the only entity that would actually benefit from this chaos are the cartels themselves. For this reason, your repeal attempt is simply misguided, and should be struck down with prejudice."
Respectfully ambassador you’re spouting the same rhetoric that I find deplorable as the target resolution. You seem to have this notion that nations across the universe as well as “RL” have nothing but brutalizing police forces and prisons which engage in systematic and constant abuse. And to then go on to suggest as you have that all drug users are criminalized for is drug use and they’d be otherwise upstanding individuals is nonsense. It is extremely evident that your picture of the justice systems is painted by zero experience of it, or at worst one bad experience which you’ve colored your perspective with.
Perhaps the next time your house is being burgled by an armed junkie looking for cash for their next fix you can call a therapist to the scene rather than the police.
by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:08 pm
Abacathea wrote:Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:"With all due respect, Ambassador, throwing people in inhumane cages and leaving them to be brutalized in abusive prisons instead of actually treating their underlying addiction and resolving any socioeconomic problems they have is not an answer that would actually accomplish a world without drugs, quite the contrary. All it would result in is embolden dangerous drug cartels to take over all drug-related production and rake in enormous profits and influence as demand remains unbroken, while entire communities would be ripped apart by police brutality and human rights abuses, with the people being arrested ending up even worse than before they were imprisoned to begin with, in most cases becoming violent criminals immediately after release. Recriminalizing drugs and violently persecuting drug users who never actually hurt anyone would be the equivalent of shooting oneself in the crotch, and the only entity that would actually benefit from this chaos are the cartels themselves. For this reason, your repeal attempt is simply misguided, and should be struck down with prejudice."
Respectfully ambassador you’re spouting the same rhetoric that I find deplorable as the target resolution. You seem to have this notion that nations across the universe as well as “RL” have nothing but brutalizing police forces and prisons which engage in systematic and constant abuse. And to then go on to suggest as you have that all drug users are criminalized for is drug use and they’d be otherwise upstanding individuals is nonsense. It is extremely evident that your picture of the justice systems is painted by zero experience of it, or at worst one bad experience which you’ve colored your perspective with.
Perhaps the next time your house is being burgled by an armed junkie looking for cash for their next fix you can call a therapist to the scene rather than the police.
by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:09 pm
Barfleur wrote:Abacathea wrote:
Respectfully ambassador you’re spouting the same rhetoric that I find deplorable as the target resolution. You seem to have this notion that nations across the universe as well as “RL” have nothing but brutalizing police forces and prisons which engage in systematic and constant abuse. And to then go on to suggest as you have that all drug users are criminalized for is drug use and they’d be otherwise upstanding individuals is nonsense. It is extremely evident that your picture of the justice systems is painted by zero experience of it, or at worst one bad experience which you’ve colored your perspective with.
Perhaps the next time your house is being burgled by an armed junkie looking for cash for their next fix you can call a therapist to the scene rather than the police.
"Ambassador, no one is arguing that burglary or robbery ought to be illegal. I just believe, as I understand the esteemed ambassador from Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia also believes, that merely having a dependence to drugs, which is almost by nature out of the control of the individual afflicted, should not be criminalized. Perhaps if this 'armed junkie' were able to seek help for his addiction, without worrying about being deprived of liberty, he would not be in a position to commit such a crime."
by Abacathea » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:27 pm
Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:Abacathea wrote:
Respectfully ambassador you’re spouting the same rhetoric that I find deplorable as the target resolution. You seem to have this notion that nations across the universe as well as “RL” have nothing but brutalizing police forces and prisons which engage in systematic and constant abuse. And to then go on to suggest as you have that all drug users are criminalized for is drug use and they’d be otherwise upstanding individuals is nonsense. It is extremely evident that your picture of the justice systems is painted by zero experience of it, or at worst one bad experience which you’ve colored your perspective with.
Perhaps the next time your house is being burgled by an armed junkie looking for cash for their next fix you can call a therapist to the scene rather than the police.
"If that "armed junkie" you speak of was actually able to get freely accessible help for his drug addiction and poor living standards without fear of being outed and then thrown into a torturous cage for being a drug user, then there would be no robbery to speak of, Ambassador. I myself come from a nation where decriminalization has greatly reduced drug-related crimes, addictions, and deaths, and drug cartels are a relic of the past, virtually nonexistent in terms of influence in our country, and our treasury has ample revenue from taxing and regulating the recreational drug sector. We of course seek to direct our citizens away from hazardous drugs such as heroin, cocaine, amphetamine, ketamine, and other opiates, but for herbs such as cannabis, we apply the principle of moderation to consumption, exactly as was practiced with alcohol and cigarettes in the past, and incidentally, many of our citizens have ceased consuming alcohol entirely in light of this shift, with cannabis by far being the most harmless alternative out of these, and our public health still remains excellent in spite of fearmongering that legalizing soft drugs would make us a "nation of dopeheads". All in all, drug decriminalization and legalization was and still is an indisputable success, with Czechoslovakia serving as a prime example, and we certainly do not desire for the world to return to a miserable past."
by Barfleur » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:32 pm
Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:Barfleur wrote:"Ambassador, no one is arguing that burglary or robbery ought to be illegal. I just believe, as I understand the esteemed ambassador from Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia also believes, that merely having a dependence to drugs, which is almost by nature out of the control of the individual afflicted, should not be criminalized. Perhaps if this 'armed junkie' were able to seek help for his addiction, without worrying about being deprived of liberty, he would not be in a position to commit such a crime."
OOC: I think you meant legal, right? Burglary obviously is illegal.
Respectfully, I'd like to raise a few points in response to this;
- If you believe rehabilitation and counselling and therapy is the answer, then why are you pushing back when part of the argument of this repeal is the failure of the target legislation to address that?
- You quite consistently go on about abuses of power and the state of prisons. I'm not going to argue with you further on this as, to quote a delightful modern phrase "there is no point in playing chess with a Pigeon it will just knock over the pieces, shit on the board and then strut around like it won the game"
- I can tell you that your experience of drugs is one thing, and mine is another, and my reference to a burglarizing junkie is on point. Let me possit a question to you, A heroin addict, currently on methadone, relapses (as they are very prone to do). Now per your scenario, the addict, who might not seek treatment (because there is another issue, you all seem to think that el adicto will willingly seek out help) decides he'll go to his recreational drugs establishment, who of course, will not take "credit" for los drugas, so where is the money coming from? Or are you going to subsidize the purchase of drugs for extreme addicts?
We're not going to see eye to eye on this. You have a delightful world view that everything works itself out with the right systems. I disagree. People have to want to use those systems, and when that involves hard work, it is always easier to return to default settings, and I can tell you that happens more often that not.
by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:44 pm
Abacathea wrote:Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:"If that "armed junkie" you speak of was actually able to get freely accessible help for his drug addiction and poor living standards without fear of being outed and then thrown into a torturous cage for being a drug user, then there would be no robbery to speak of, Ambassador. I myself come from a nation where decriminalization has greatly reduced drug-related crimes, addictions, and deaths, and drug cartels are a relic of the past, virtually nonexistent in terms of influence in our country, and our treasury has ample revenue from taxing and regulating the recreational drug sector. We of course seek to direct our citizens away from hazardous drugs such as heroin, cocaine, amphetamine, ketamine, and other opiates, but for herbs such as cannabis, we apply the principle of moderation to consumption, exactly as was practiced with alcohol and cigarettes in the past, and incidentally, many of our citizens have ceased consuming alcohol entirely in light of this shift, with cannabis by far being the most harmless alternative out of these, and our public health still remains excellent in spite of fearmongering that legalizing soft drugs would make us a "nation of dopeheads". All in all, drug decriminalization and legalization was and still is an indisputable success, with Czechoslovakia serving as a prime example, and we certainly do not desire for the world to return to a miserable past."
Respectfully, I'd like to raise a few points in response to this;
- If you believe rehabilitation and counselling and therapy is the answer, then why are you pushing back when part of the argument of this repeal is the failure of the target legislation to address that?
- You quite consistently go on about abuses of power and the state of prisons. I'm not going to argue with you further on this as, to quote a delightful modern phrase "there is no point in playing chess with a Pigeon it will just knock over the pieces, shit on the board and then strut around like it won the game"
- I can tell you that your experience of drugs is one thing, and mine is another, and my reference to a burglarizing junkie is on point. Let me possit a question to you, A heroin addict, currently on methadone, relapses (as they are very prone to do). Now per your scenario, the addict, who might not seek treatment (because there is another issue, you all seem to think that el adicto will willingly seek out help) decides he'll go to his recreational drugs establishment, who of course, will not take "credit" for los drugas, so where is the money coming from? Or are you going to subsidize the purchase of drugs for extreme addicts?
We're not going to see eye to eye on this. You have a delightful world view that everything works itself out with the right systems. I disagree. People have to want to use those systems, and when that involves hard work, it is always easier to return to default settings, and I can tell you that happens more often that not.
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