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[DEFEATED] Repeal SC#246 "Liberate Nazi Europa"

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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6309
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:42 am

Clearly I'm in the minority now, but this used to be how the SC worked. Skyrim Diplomacy passed a lot of repeals this way. The logic behind passing these repeals hasn't changed, and I've yet to see anyone put forth an argument in the Against column that's convincing. Even the usual folks that always put forth arguments that I nod along with.. They aren't registering with me on this one. I don't know. Maybe Tin is too unpopular in the SC right now to pass something like this. Maybe certain counterarguments need to be made that weren't made here, or this needs harder campaigning to pass, or it needs to be in the form of a Declaration rather than a Repeal so that everyone's happy. Maybe I'm just delusional, but...

I just have this feeling that it shouldn't be like this. NE is gone. Moral good prevailed. If we don't properly close the book on NE here in this Security Council, then it just hangs in suspended animation, frozen in time as the threat that the original Liberation depicts it as. And that feels wrong.
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Thousand Branches
Diplomat
 
Posts: 754
Founded: Jun 03, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Thousand Branches » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:51 am

RiderSyl wrote:Clearly I'm in the minority now, but this used to be how the SC worked. Skyrim Diplomacy passed a lot of repeals this way. The logic behind passing these repeals hasn't changed, and I've yet to see anyone put forth an argument in the Against column that's convincing. Even the usual folks that always put forth arguments that I nod along with.. They aren't registering with me on this one. I don't know. Maybe Tin is too unpopular in the SC right now to pass something like this. Maybe certain counterarguments need to be made that weren't made here, or this needs harder campaigning to pass, or it needs to be in the form of a Declaration rather than a Repeal so that everyone's happy. Maybe I'm just delusional, but...

I just have this feeling that it shouldn't be like this. NE is gone. Moral good prevailed. If we don't properly close the book on NE here in this Security Council, then it just hangs in suspended animation, frozen in time as the threat that the original Liberation depicts it as. And that feels wrong.

Hey, so I thought this was a really interesting opinion because I’m kind of along the same lines, but also the opposite way. See for me, the fact of the matter is that repeals also live on in the halls of the Security Council. When you go to read resolutions, the repeals are in there too. I think in repealing the old liberation, it just brings more permanent attention to a place that really doesn’t deserve attention. I think for me, closing the book on NE is simply leaving it alone and not bothering with it anymore.

I definitely get the other side of this though too. I imagine this is mostly a small difference in belief. Hopefully I explained my side well enough haha anyway have a great day!

-A
Last edited by Thousand Branches on Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The North Polish Union
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Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:57 am

RiderSyl wrote:Clearly I'm in the minority now, but this used to be how the SC worked. Skyrim Diplomacy passed a lot of repeals this way. The logic behind passing these repeals hasn't changed, and I've yet to see anyone put forth an argument in the Against column that's convincing. Even the usual folks that always put forth arguments that I nod along with.. They aren't registering with me on this one. I don't know. Maybe Tin is too unpopular in the SC right now to pass something like this. Maybe certain counterarguments need to be made that weren't made here, or this needs harder campaigning to pass, or it needs to be in the form of a Declaration rather than a Repeal so that everyone's happy. Maybe I'm just delusional, but...

I just have this feeling that it shouldn't be like this. NE is gone. Moral good prevailed. If we don't properly close the book on NE here in this Security Council, then it just hangs in suspended animation, frozen in time as the threat that the original Liberation depicts it as. And that feels wrong.

I think you're pining for an SC that never was. Skyrim Diplomacy authored exactly one repeal and it was the standard "we liberated this for the fendas and they won, so let's repeal this and lock the region down again" repeal. Also, I don't remember repeals written like this passing in the past, and if we repeal this, what should we do with all the C&Cs that were handed out to now-CTEd nations?
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Morover
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Posts: 1557
Founded: Oct 14, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Morover » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:07 am

The North Polish Union wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:Clearly I'm in the minority now, but this used to be how the SC worked. Skyrim Diplomacy passed a lot of repeals this way. The logic behind passing these repeals hasn't changed, and I've yet to see anyone put forth an argument in the Against column that's convincing. Even the usual folks that always put forth arguments that I nod along with.. They aren't registering with me on this one. I don't know. Maybe Tin is too unpopular in the SC right now to pass something like this. Maybe certain counterarguments need to be made that weren't made here, or this needs harder campaigning to pass, or it needs to be in the form of a Declaration rather than a Repeal so that everyone's happy. Maybe I'm just delusional, but...

I just have this feeling that it shouldn't be like this. NE is gone. Moral good prevailed. If we don't properly close the book on NE here in this Security Council, then it just hangs in suspended animation, frozen in time as the threat that the original Liberation depicts it as. And that feels wrong.

I think you're pining for an SC that never was. Skyrim Diplomacy authored exactly one repeal and it was the standard "we liberated this for the fendas and they won, so let's repeal this and lock the region down again" repeal. Also, I don't remember repeals written like this passing in the past, and if we repeal this, what should we do with all the C&Cs that were handed out to now-CTEd nations?

You're wrong (and don't think that this means I necessarily agree with RiderSyl on whether or not this should pass) - Skyrim Diplomacy was also known as SkyDip, and they passed repeals such as SCR#116, "Repeal: Condemn True North" and SCR#101, "Repeal: Commend The Quote Of The Day", both of which pretty perfectly fit the description Rider gives here - there are other repeals in a similar vein that I can appreciate, but these two seem to be the ones that they're talking about right now.
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Emodea
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Founded: May 21, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Emodea » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:08 am

The North Polish Union wrote:what should we do with all the C&Cs that were handed out to now-CTEd nations?

Not really comparable. C/Cs are just shiny badges, they don't have any effect on the nations or regions. Liberations, on the other hand, are resolutions that actively impact a region's mechanics. To compare them in the same context is to compare apples and oranges.
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RiderSyl
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Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:10 am

Thousand Branches wrote:When you go to read resolutions, the repeals are in there too. I think in repealing the old liberation, it just brings more permanent attention to a place that really doesn’t deserve attention. I think for me, closing the book on NE is simply leaving it alone and not bothering with it anymore.


I understand where you're coming from, but the counter to this is actually another stance I've seen taken against the passage of this repeal - The idea that the old liberation is historically impactful and stands not only as a reminder of our fight, but as a testament to the playerbase fighting Nazis before the moderators finally did.

SC#246 is Shroedinger's Liberation. It can't be repealed because it must be remembered, and a repeal can't be passed because it must be forgotten.

The North Polish Union wrote:I think you're pining for an SC that never was. Skyrim Diplomacy authored exactly one repeal and it was the standard "we liberated this for the fendas and they won, so let's repeal this and lock the region down again" repeal.

"Skyrim Diplomacy authored exactly one repeal" is a statement akin to "Tim has defended exactly one region". Look for resolutions under the nation SkyDip, where he did most of his work.

Also I'm really not engaging in a comparison between C&Cs of CTEs and a Liberation of a deleted Nazi region, because the only thing they have in common is that they don't exist anymore and there is obviously more nuance to this.
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Thousand Branches
Diplomat
 
Posts: 754
Founded: Jun 03, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Thousand Branches » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:27 am

RiderSyl wrote:
Thousand Branches wrote:When you go to read resolutions, the repeals are in there too. I think in repealing the old liberation, it just brings more permanent attention to a place that really doesn’t deserve attention. I think for me, closing the book on NE is simply leaving it alone and not bothering with it anymore.


I understand where you're coming from, but the counter to this is actually another stance I've seen taken against the passage of this repeal - The idea that the old liberation is historically impactful and stands not only as a reminder of our fight, but as a testament to the playerbase fighting Nazis before the moderators finally did.

SC#246 is Shroedinger's Liberation. It can't be repealed because it must be remembered, and a repeal can't be passed because it must be forgotten.

Interesting!! I think Shroedinger’s liberation is the best thing I’ve heard all day :D And I think in not repealing it, it lets both sides here happen. Some people see it as a reminder of anti-fascist action and thats cool! Some prefer to forget it ever existed and to bury an old nazi region where it won’t see the light again. While those two arguments directly counter one another, I think they’re also arguments that can live in harmony together.

We all remember the past differently, some by reminiscing, some by forgetting, I think that’s also a matter of personal opinion.

(Also PS it’s been so long since I’ve gotten to be philosophical in the Security Council this is great :D)

-A
Last edited by Thousand Branches on Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The North Polish Union
Senator
 
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Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:38 am

Morover wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:I think you're pining for an SC that never was. Skyrim Diplomacy authored exactly one repeal and it was the standard "we liberated this for the fendas and they won, so let's repeal this and lock the region down again" repeal. Also, I don't remember repeals written like this passing in the past, and if we repeal this, what should we do with all the C&Cs that were handed out to now-CTEd nations?

You're wrong (and don't think that this means I necessarily agree with RiderSyl on whether or not this should pass) - Skyrim Diplomacy was also known as SkyDip, and they passed repeals such as SCR#116, "Repeal: Condemn True North" and SCR#101, "Repeal: Commend The Quote Of The Day", both of which pretty perfectly fit the description Rider gives here - there are other repeals in a similar vein that I can appreciate, but these two seem to be the ones that they're talking about right now.

I spaced that SkyDip and Skyrim Diplomacy were the same person. In any case, I'm not sure that either of the examples provided are really comparable to this. Condemn True North was passed on the justification that True North had puppet-spammed their way to being the largest region in the world. The repeal was based on the fact that True North had stopped puppet-spamming and the region's population had fallen; in other words, the condemnation had addressed the 'problem behavior' and since that had been addressed the condemnation was no longer necessary. True North still existed (in its condemned incarnation, it was refounded less than a month ago) at the time of the repeal's passage. That is not the case here, as Nazi Europa had not corrected the problem behavior at the time of its deletion.

The repeal of Commend TQOTD is a little better, in that it at least notes that TQOTD had CTEd at the time of the repeal. However, it also notes that TQOTD's commendation had contained "blatant factual inaccuracies" in addition to being outdated. In other words, TQOTD had been commended for actions that he had not actually done, which is again not the case here.

Emodea wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:what should we do with all the C&Cs that were handed out to now-CTEd nations?

Not really comparable. C/Cs are just shiny badges, they don't have any effect on the nations or regions. Liberations, on the other hand, are resolutions that actively impact a region's mechanics. To compare them in the same context is to compare apples and oranges.

In this case, the liberation exists in name only. Nazi Europa has been mod-deleted and cannot be refounded. The resolution only exists in the SC, it doesn't and can no longer ever impact game mechanics. the same is true for C&Cs of CTEd nations, especially those that have been mod-deleted (such as Milograd or Vandoosa). Why not repeal those to get extra resolutions off the books?
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:keep your wet opinions to yourself. Byzantium and Ottoman will not come again. Whoever thinks of this wet dream will feel the power of the Republic's secular army.
Minskiev wrote:You are GP's dross.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Author of S.C. Res. № 137
POLAND
STRONG!

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Belken Democratic Republic
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Sep 02, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Belken Democratic Republic » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:27 pm

who and why would you want to repeal this

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Tinhampton
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13705
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tinhampton » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:44 pm

Belken Democratic Republic wrote:who and why would you want to repeal this

Because Nazi Europa... isn't.
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Comfed
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Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:16 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:Why not repeal those to get extra resolutions off the books?

Because who cares? They’re not hurting anyone. And there are specific reasons not to repeal this one.

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Honeydewistania
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Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Honeydewistania » Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:15 pm

Thousand Branches wrote:[See for me, the fact of the matter is that repeals also live on in the halls of the Security Council. When you go to read resolutions, the repeals are in there too. I think in repealing the old liberation, it just brings more permanent attention to a place that really doesn’t deserve attention.


I really don’t think that happens, or at least in a way that benefits Nazis. Who is enticed to become a fascist and join a Nazi region after reading Repeal "Liberate Nazi Europe"?
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Thousand Branches
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Founded: Jun 03, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Thousand Branches » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:28 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:I really don’t think that happens, or at least in a way that benefits Nazis. Who is enticed to become a fascist and join a Nazi region after reading Repeal "Liberate Nazi Europe"?

Solid point! I don't think it has to do with people becoming nazis, that I don't really think will be a major problem. Rather it is that I think most of us don't need more reminders of the rampant fascism and naziism in this world. With serious problems that hurt so many people every day, I think the NationStates community has enough fascism rhetoric that I just think it would be easier to bury this resolution and not provide that ideology with more attention! Does that explain my point better?

Also have a wonderful day!

-A
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Sierra Novalis
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Founded: Nov 26, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Sierra Novalis » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:33 pm

I don't believe that it's necessary to repeal this resolution.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
Senator
 
Posts: 4724
Founded: Dec 17, 2003
Democratic Socialists

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:01 am

"Repeal "Liberate Nazi Europa"" was defeated 9,414 votes to 5,275.
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Giovanniland
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Giovanniland » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:38 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
"Repeal "Liberate Nazi Europa"" was defeated 9,414 votes to 5,275.

Thankfully it was defeated.
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Great Algerstonia
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Founded: Mar 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Algerstonia » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:06 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
"Repeal "Liberate Nazi Europa"" was defeated 9,414 votes to 5,275.

Oi! That's Tin's job, thank you very much.
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Tinhampton
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Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tinhampton » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:25 am

Great Algerstonia wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
"Repeal "Liberate Nazi Europa"" was defeated 9,414 votes to 5,275.

Oi! That's Tin's job, thank you very much.

I should stop waking up at 6:30pm
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Bhang Bhang Duc
Senator
 
Posts: 4724
Founded: Dec 17, 2003
Democratic Socialists

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:12 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
"Repeal "Liberate Nazi Europa"" was defeated 9,414 votes to 5,275.

Oi! That's Tin's job, thank you very much.

Can’t even do that right it seems.
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Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.

Sedgistan wrote:The SC has just has a spate of really shitty ones recently from Northumbria, his Watermelon fanboy…..

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