[PASSED] Advancement of Anti-Fascist Action

[Bears Armed]

Don't you all know that Antifa is much a bigger threat and more violent then the fascists their fighting against.

Don't you know that there's a difference between NS Antifa and RL Antifa?

But there isn't one between NS fascists and RL fascists?

[Wallenburg]

Don't you know that there's a difference between NS Antifa and RL Antifa?

But there isn't one between NS fascists and RL fascists?

I'm pretty sure the difference is that NS Antifa is a GP military alliance with no impact on real life, whereas NS fascists are no less fascist in real life.

[Bears Armed]

But there isn't one between NS fascists and RL fascists?

I'm pretty sure the difference is that NS Antifa is a GP military alliance with no impact on real life, whereas NS fascists are no less fascist in real life.

Evidence?

[Wallenburg]

I'm pretty sure the difference is that NS Antifa is a GP military alliance with no impact on real life, whereas NS fascists are no less fascist in real life.

Evidence?

Well, for starters, the Antifa region page explicitly reads: "DISCLAIMER: Not affiliated with real world Antifa."

[Bears Armed Mission]

Evidence?

Well, for starters, the Antifa region page explicitly reads: "DISCLAIMER: Not affiliated with real world Antifa."

And of course people would never lie about that sort of thing.

Evidence for the other half of your beliefs in this matter?

[Xoriet]

Well, for starters, the Antifa region page explicitly reads: "DISCLAIMER: Not affiliated with real world Antifa."

And of course people would never lie about that sort of thing.

Evidence for the other half of your beliefs in this matter?

Clearly you’ve never seen their Discords or RMBs with the anti-Jew comments, Holocaust denial, Nazi propaganda, and discrimination against minorities. The now-deleted fascist region Farkasfalka had their entire Discord permabanned for their content. I have seen these Discords and RMB posts. They are completely appalling. I also work with NS Antifa and can assure you they are not affiliated. Considering that you are displaying an appalling lack of knowledge on the subject of the NS fascists, I would take a moment to do some looking around instead of handwaving the fascists on NS. There are NSers who have successfully roleplayed fascists. The fascists mentioned here are people who genuinely believe in fascism and Nazism and discriminate against minorities as well as either deny or joke about the atrocities committed by past fascist regimes.

[Phyr]

I approved this proposal and plan to vote for it when it goes to vote.

I am not sure if the decision not to provide a definition in the text was the right one. If there was a definition, we just enter into a semantic game of which policies or beliefs make someone fascist, when by and large the concern in NationStates is people who outwardly identify as fascist, or who may claim not to be but post images/themes/content that is clearly meant to associate one with fascism. In essence it feels right to me to stand against an idea when talking about organizations, etc and letting us weigh factors for each individual case. By leaving the definition out, you are in my mind focusing it on the worst in your face type of players and less so on genuine RPers whose IC conduct might be highly nationalist and borderline fascist that we have given recognition to in this body through condemnation, and in the future we probably will continue to do so. With a definition, this might be read as saying we shouldn't vote for a condemnation of a nation that RPs very well as a bad actor if many elements of that look like fascism, but without a definition I think its harder to say this is about them. I think that makes perfect sense in relation to large parts of this text when to me it feels like we are speaking more 'in general' or more so focused on groups or communities.

But in relation to Article I, like for instance the prohibition of having fascist leaders in your region, that feels like we are envisioning very specific events relating to individual NSers, and regions banning leaders for specific things they deem fascist. For a reason I can't quite put my finger on, I feel a lot less comfortable with that article and no definition. We all know there are some that have a very wide definition of fascist that includes a lot of mainstream beliefs, and perhaps my concern is that when I imagine an actual individual NSer being told this resolution prevents them from having regional leadership I sincerely hope that person is fascist by some objective and realistic measurements, and not just some relative standards held by the nation doing the banning. I do share a slight concern with other posters, that it seems to add a problematic level of ambiguity when someone is banned from a region for being fascist, ideally that means they would meet the definition of fascist held by the majority of NSers. Why it feels worse to point at one individual person and say that, rather than a whole region I can't explain, but it my gut reaction to the text.

Nevertheless, I think this is the right level of detail for the bulk of this declaration's actions, and will support the resolution with that one misgiving aside.

[Cormactopia Prime]

But in relation to Article I, like for instance the prohibition of having fascist leaders in your region, that feels like we are envisioning very specific events relating to individual NSers, and regions banning leaders for specific things they deem fascist. For a reason I can't quite put my finger on, I feel a lot less comfortable with that article and no definition. We all know there are some that have a very wide definition of fascist that includes a lot of mainstream beliefs, and perhaps my concern is that when I imagine an actual individual NSer being told this resolution prevents them from having regional leadership I sincerely hope that person is fascist by some objective and realistic measurements, and not just some relative standards held by the nation doing the banning. I do share a slight concern with other posters, that it seems to add a problematic level of ambiguity when someone is banned from a region for being fascist, ideally that means they would meet the definition of fascist held by the majority of NSers. Why it feels worse to point at one individual person and say that, rather than a whole region I can't explain, but it my gut reaction to the text.

I do see your point here, and I'm not sure I've done the best at articulating why I feel a definition isn't needed. Going to take one more stab at it.

Essentially, while I feel this proposal is important, it isn't important in the sense that it is introducing anything new. An international consensus against fascism has already been formed, for years; this proposal is basically just codifying that consensus. Now, I think that's important for a couple reasons: First, it encourages regions that haven't yet adopted this approach toward fascism or that may not be aware of it to join with those that have. Second, it makes clear that anti-fascist action is not just a priority of a multi-regional coalition, but the priority of the Security Council overall. I think all of that is very important.

But what this proposal doesn't and really can't do is change what regions have already been doing or are already inclined to do, which is to say, if there were a region out there inclined to ban someone for being a fascist in a kneejerk way and with a standard that is much harsher than other regions' standards, they would already have been inclined to do that. This proposal won't be the thing that leads them in that direction. Now, I'll admit this proposal could give them ammunition for their kneejerk ban, but if it hadn't been this proposal they'd have found a different excuse. I think when you look at the totality of the proposal's text, as well as the discussion here, it's clear the proposal is meant to guide regions toward a reasonable approach to dealing with fascism. If regions take an unreasonable approach, I do believe it's clear from both the proposal text and the drafting discussion that isn't the intent. In the end, I think most regions will continue to be reasonable.

That said, if we do see a rise in unreasonable regional conduct, it would always be possible to pass a future Declaration to supplement this one with definitions and perhaps further guidelines to correct excesses. I really don't think that will actually prove necessary, but the option will exist, and I for one would be willing to pursue it if it does seem to be necessary, or lend my support to someone else's pursuit of it should their proposal still maintain strong standards against fascism.

Nevertheless, I think this is the right level of detail for the bulk of this declaration's actions, and will support the resolution with that one misgiving aside.

Thank you, I appreciate your support and your thoughtful and thought provoking comments!

[Bears Armed]

And of course people would never lie about that sort of thing.

Evidence for the other half of your beliefs in this matter?

Clearly you’ve never seen their Discords or RMBs with the anti-Jew comments, Holocaust denial, Nazi propaganda, and discrimination against minorities.

No. I only look at the regions that interest me, and ones that appear to espouse politically extreme ideologies from either end of the range (or "Nazi" ones, if -- as some people do, one considers Nazism to have been undefinable in terms of the usual range [as too statist to have been truly "far right"], either) generally do not interest me: Consequently I don't try wading through the Marxist-looking regions' Discords & RMBS, either. I play NS for fun, not to promote some RL ideology, so I generally leave such regions (whether "fascist" or "marxist") alone...

The now-deleted fascist region Farkasfalka had their entire Discord permabanned for their content.

A now-deleted region. As the other regions against which NS Antifa and its allies rail apparently have not suffered the same fate -- or, at least, had not done so until the recent purge of Nazi or Nazi-looking ones -- I do not regard that one particular region as evidence automatically sufficient to also damn all other regions that anybody wishes to claim are "fascist"... and I have already seen and heard the latter label thrown around so broadly (and sometimes blatantly inaccurately) by left-wingers in RL that I am naturally sceptical when I see or hear it being used in NS as well.

I also work with NS Antifa. They are not affiliated.

They would have more credibility if they did not use the same name. If every nation that says it only RPs fascism in NS rather than believes in it for RL as well is to be considered truly fascist and shunned, then why should not people presume that every region or movement using the guise of any form of Left-wing extremism is not similarly "genuine" and thus associated ideologically with the misdeeds of those RL factions? For that matter, isn't or wasn't NS Antifa allied in some way to the region North Korea, which appears to glorify the RL nation of that same name? There seems to be a double standard ln play here, and I object to that. If there really are regions of "true-believing" ideologically-"offensive" players here then the forces opposing the fascist ones would have more credibility in my eyes if they (a) spoke out just as strongly against the glorifiers of left-wing oppression as well and (b) did not associate with regions whose members themselves appeared to fall into the latter category.

___________________________________________________________

TL;DR version: Fascism bad, I agree; Bolshevism & its offshoots (Stalinism, Trotskyism, Maoism, Juche, etc) also bad; players who claim to be protecting good against bad, but who attack only fascists and not also bolshevists (etc) -- and who maybe even ally openly with the latter -- lack credibility to me (Don't try to cite RL's WW2 as a counter-example: That was a case where the Nazis posed a genuine physical threat to western civilization, not just imaginary nations in an online game & their words); I will not support international [in NS] declarations against oppressive extremist ideologies unless they oppose all such oppressive extremist ideologies rather than just one side of the balance.

[Lord Dominator]

Antifa is a shortening of “anti-fascist” both here and irl. There aren’t really other descriptive names available for such a stance other than either of those two.

[Bears Armed]

Antifa is a shortening of “anti-fascist” both here and irl. There aren’t really other descriptive names available for such a stance other than either of those two.

But, as I said above, (a) it makes the NS group look as though they're affiliated to the RL one even if they're not, and (b) I object to the emphasis being just on opposing only fascism rather than on opposing left-wing extremist ideologies as well. Other descriptive names? How about something along the lines of 'Justice Battalion' or ''Freedom Brigade' or 'Liberty Legion'? (for a trio of obscure pop-culture references...)

[Cormactopia Prime]

Antifa is a shortening of “anti-fascist” both here and irl. There aren’t really other descriptive names available for such a stance other than either of those two.

But, as I said above, (a) it makes the NS group look as though they're affiliated to the RL one even if they're not, and (b) I object to the emphasis being just on opposing only fascism rather than on opposing left-wing extremist ideologies as well. Other descriptive names? How about something along the lines of 'Justice Battalion' or ''Freedom Brigade' or 'Liberty Legion'? (for a trio of obscure pop-culture references...)

First of all, the equivalence you're drawing between fascists and the left is a false one. The toll of fascism is much worse, but I'm not going to get into this debate in this thread because this isn't NSG. Suffice it to say you need to actually do some research, beyond wherever you've been getting this "both sides" whataboutism.

All of that aside, Antifa -- online or offline -- has nothing to do with the RL regimes you're referencing. How many genocides has Antifa carried out? The answer is none. So quite independent of the false equivalence you're drawing between fascist and socialist regimes, the false equivalence you're drawing between fascists and Antifa is even more false and absurd, and is such a reach that I can only conclude you can't possibly be making this argument in good faith.

[Spode Humbled Minions]

Spode reaches into his bag and produces two socks with googley eyes- The first puppet has a straw taped to it

Sockpuppet 1: If we’re condemning x, why aren’t we condemning y?

Sockpuppet 2: Because the bill is about x, and not about y.

Sockpuppet 1: But y is bad, bad things should be condemned, and this a condemnation.

Socketpuppet 2: Then write a condemnation of y and try to pass it lol

Uh, full support.

[Bears Armed]

But, as I said above, (a) it makes the NS group look as though they're affiliated to the RL one even if they're not, and (b) I object to the emphasis being just on opposing only fascism rather than on opposing left-wing extremist ideologies as well. Other descriptive names? How about something along the lines of 'Justice Battalion' or ''Freedom Brigade' or 'Liberty Legion'? (for a trio of obscure pop-culture references...)

First of all, the equivalence you're drawing between fascists and the left is a false one. The toll of fascism is much worse, but I'm not going to get into this debate in this thread because this isn't NSG. Suffice it to say you need to actually do some research, beyond wherever you've been getting this "both sides" whataboutism.

I realise that if we argue the point further here we probably would get told by the Mods to take it to NSG, if not actually 'warned', so I will not do that. Suffice to say that I have done research -- from RL sources, not just on the net. Suffice it to say that if you dismiss any points about oppressive acts and even outright atrocities by left-wing regimes or groups as insignificant, and therefore try to dismiss my mention of them as "whataboutism" then I find it hard to believe that you are arguing in good faith.

All of that aside, Antifa -- online or offline -- has nothing to do with the RL regimes you're referencing. How many genocides has Antifa carried out? The answer is none. So quite independent of the false equivalence you're drawing between fascist and socialist regimes, the false equivalence you're drawing between fascists and Antifa is even more false and absurd

If all NS nations and regions that use fascist symbology even in RP are to be considered genuine fascists in the RL sense and for that reason purged from this site, as I have seen self-proclaimed "fash-bashers" claim on multiple occasions, then it would be arrant double standards not to presume likewise that at least some of the many NS nations or regions using Marxist/Maoist/Juche/etc symbology are genuinely Marxists/Maoists/pro-Juche/etc and therefore reasonably can be considered to endorse the RL groups' deeds. Are you seriously claiming that NS Antifa does not knowingly & willingly include any of those "true believers" among its allies (& perhaps even among its members)? if the rhetoric about guilt by assumption that I have seen used by some "fash-bashers" in NS is applied consistently, rather than by politically-biased double standards then, yes, NS Antifa therefore is associated -- at least indirectly -- to some of those RL groups & their deeds.

It's a pity but, despite the fact that in the past I have found some of your posts on other aspects of the game to be worth reading, I find your apparent blindness to any possibility that the anti-fascist movement might itself contain & be influenced by people with unsavoury RL beliefs & associations too irritating to continue discussing the matter with you any further: Therefore, to avoid the risk of drawing Modly wrath upon myself, I am now placing you on my 'Foes' list.

[Wallenburg]

Well, for starters, the Antifa region page explicitly reads: "DISCLAIMER: Not affiliated with real world Antifa."

And of course people would never lie about that sort of thing.

Evidence for the other half of your beliefs in this matter?

BA, I am going to be more charitable than this post and the ones that follow deserve and assume that you are not saying that the fascists on this site aren't really fascists. Do not apologize for fascists by pretending they aren't genuine believers.

[Cormactopia Prime]

It's a pity but, despite the fact that in the past I have found some of your posts on other aspects of the game to be worth reading, I find your apparent blindness to any possibility that the anti-fascist movement might itself contain & be influenced by people with unsavoury RL beliefs & associations too irritating to continue discussing the matter with you any further: Therefore, to avoid the risk of drawing Modly wrath upon myself, I am now placing you on my 'Foes' list.

I'm really not interested in addressing the rest of your argument because, as a socialist myself, I'm fairly offended to have been compared to fascists.

I did want to address this, though, because I've also found some of your posts on other aspects of the game to be worth reading and while we disagree on this topic, I personally wouldn't want to have all your posts hidden. If you want to vote against this proposal, feel free; but don't expect me to agree with your argument.

[The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan]

Say no to Fascism , it is a cruel ideology that put millions to death.

[Elite leomonade]

I fully support this

[The Reformed American Republic]

Antifa is a shortening of “anti-fascist” both here and irl. There aren’t really other descriptive names available for such a stance other than either of those two.

There's more to the Antifa movement in RL that meets the eye, though I cannot really discuss that here.

---

I'm neutral on the proposal. It really doesn't change anything substantial as what is outlined already occurs.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

(Don't try to cite RL's WW2 as a counter-example: That was a case where the Nazis posed a genuine physical threat to western civilization, not just imaginary nations in an online game & their words);

North Korea is filled with people who, in my experience, aren't trying to make this online game miserable for other people. They tend even to be open to critical debate about the merits of the DPRK. The fascists who play this game are in fact trying to make it - and life generally - miserable for Jewish people, black people, LGBTQ+ people, "weak" people, whatever other scapegoat you can think of, etc. etc. etc.

There's simply no comparison. You can "Durrrr horseshoe" and go NSG/numbers gaming all you like - , but in terms of how people act on this website, there's a vast, clear difference between the self-proclaimed fascists and literally everybody else; and even the most die-hard Maoists are on the "everybody else" side. The fact you're pooh-poohing Xoriet's detailed description is not what I've come to expect from you. I hope you'll reconsider some of this.

[Lord Dominator]

North Korea is filled with people who, in my experience, aren't trying to make this online game miserable for other people. They tend even to be open to critical debate about the merits of the DPRK.

I will give NK that their RMB certainly seems to back up this notion now better than it used to (more or less), as well as making me less want to gouge my eyes out - but even those were still principled on vehement disagreements with their stuff than anything.

Or in other words, as a known disliker of NK the region, I will parrot SL that they are in fact not nearly as bad as your typical fascist region.

[Marxist Germany]

The fascists who play this game are in fact trying to make it - and life generally - miserable for Jewish people, black people, LGBTQ+ people, "weak" people, whatever other scapegoat you can think of, etc. etc. etc.

OOC: Luckily, the rules prohibit targetted harassment, trolling, and flaming. An SC resolution sanctioning the raiding of any region NSLeft deems fascist, and encouraging boycotting WA authors based on their ideology is not going to change that, nor will it make those fascists change their minds.

[WayNeacTia]

The fascists who play this game are in fact trying to make it - and life generally - miserable for Jewish people, black people, LGBTQ+ people, "weak" people, whatever other scapegoat you can think of, etc. etc. etc.

OOC: Luckily, the rules prohibit targetted harassment, trolling, and flaming. An SC resolution sanctioning the raiding of any region NSLeft deems fascist, and encouraging boycotting WA authors based on their ideology is not going to change that, nor will it make those fascists change their minds.

Why exactly are you so against this?

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: Luckily, the rules prohibit targetted harassment, trolling, and flaming. An SC resolution sanctioning the raiding of any region NSLeft deems fascist, and encouraging boycotting WA authors based on their ideology is not going to change that, nor will it make those fascists change their minds.

Why exactly are you so against this?

OOC: I am against raiding regions that have not engaged in raiding previously, regardless of whether they are right-wing or left-wing. This resolution encourages griefing regions based on ideology, and arbitrarily chooses fascism as the reason for all of the hatred in the world.

[The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan]

I fully support this

Hey there my friend. Both Right wing and Left wing extremism are bad , too much of anything is bad. But proper Left , Right ideologies and Centrism are good.