[PASSED] Advancement of Anti-Fascist Action

[Cormactopia Prime]

The Civil Defence Siren to this day includes the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators listed as a fascist region, which is false. The Confederation bans Out Of Character fascists on sight, both on the RMB and discord. The Confederation has also cut all ties with Out Of Character fascist regions. The fact that it is still on the Civil Defence Siren proves at least one instance of "anti-fascists engaging in misplaced targeting of a region based on false accusations of fascism".

I take it you missed "or in the region's recent history."

[Stellar Colonies]

This would of course focus on OOC fascism, as I would guess. The NS community shouldn't be encouraged to kick out and cut off people whom are merely roleplaying as fascist states, which isn't inherently harmful.

Do you believe that people who hold fascist views should be kicked and cut off then?

My opinion regarding that is not particularly relevant, but people getting kicked out for roleplaying as fascist states would absolutely be unreasonable.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Question: Is "civil rights" now the preferred terminology over "human rights" in the GA? I've seen that mentioned somewhere and would be happy to adjust.

[Honeydewistania]

Question: Is "civil rights" now the preferred terminology over "human rights" in the GA? I've seen that mentioned somewhere and would be happy to adjust.

Yes

[Cormactopia Prime]

Question: Is "civil rights" now the preferred terminology over "human rights" in the GA? I've seen that mentioned somewhere and would be happy to adjust.

Yes

Awesome, thank you! I've edited the proposal accordingly.

Additionally, I've added a last call tag to the topic title. Discussion has died down considerably and we're approaching Sedge's hopeful timetable for when Declarations might go live. Obviously, we don't know exactly when they will, so this might be a "last call" period of a few days -- continue offering feedback if you have it!

[Jedinsto]

by Sedgistan » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:59 pm

Yes - there's a test one due to go to vote at tonight's major in the test version of NS. Assuming that goes through fine, then I think we're done with the testing stage and on to the "let's get it live" stage.

So yes hopefully we're in the "let's get it live" stage and we can see this on the floor relatively soon.

[742]

Nah. This screws over ww2 RPs (even though they're dull, they're a legitimate part of the game)

"Defining, for the purposes of this resolution, a fascist nation or region as any nation or region that identifies as fascist or engages in the promotion of fascist ideology, and further defining a fascist region as any region that willfully harbors fascist nations and permits them to promote fascist ideology within regional borders or abroad;"

RP fascist nations get caught up in this definition. By extension, their whole region gets defined as fascist. And from article III.2, raiding them is encouraged.

You're also including the spam regions that add every single tag (including fascist) into that definition, making raiding them encouraged too.

There's also the "Liberate CCD" angle. As the region had a founder at the time of liberation, there was no practical effect other than to draw attention to the region. So it would (in my opinion) have failed article II.4

Great idea, but like you say, it's better to get it right.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Nah. This screws over ww2 RPs (even though they're dull, they're a legitimate part of the game)

"Defining, for the purposes of this resolution, a fascist nation or region as any nation or region that identifies as fascist or engages in the promotion of fascist ideology, and further defining a fascist region as any region that willfully harbors fascist nations and permits them to promote fascist ideology within regional borders or abroad;"

RP fascist nations get caught up in this definition. By extension, their whole region gets defined as fascist. And from article III.2, raiding them is encouraged.

Again, regions have been discerning the difference between RP and OOC fascism for a very long time. Nothing here changes that.

You're also including the spam regions that add every single tag (including fascist) into that definition, making raiding them encouraged too.

Yes. They should decline to use that tag. To not include regions that use the Fascist tag would be to render this proposal truly ridiculous, because if we can't even agree that regions self-labeled as fascists are actually fascist regions, which ones are? Their flippant use of the Fascist tag is not our problem.

There's also the "Liberate CCD" angle. As the region had a founder at the time of liberation, there was no practical effect other than to draw attention to the region. So it would (in my opinion) have failed article II.4

It would be up to regions to judge that clause and every other clause in this proposal, so I think we can trust them to make reasonable judgments as they have already been doing for years. That doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong in what you're saying about Liberate CCD -- it probably would have been wiser to wait until they were actually vulnerable, for a variety of reasons, not least of which that the Liberation put the Founder on notice that if he thinks he might be on the brink of a puppetsweep he should impose a password himself which would not be subject to the Liberation resolution. So yeah, I think the wisdom of Liberate CCD could be subject to debate, but it would still be regions determining whether its benefit outweighs the cost of drawing attention to the region. If you don't trust regions to make reasonable determinations about anything, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a Declaration that should pass since they're all non-binding.

Great idea, but like you say, it's better to get it right.

You've offered zero in the way of constructive suggestions, and I have no idea who you even are (as in, I don't know if this is your main or a puppet), so I think given the thus far solid support for this I will assume I've gotten it right unless and until there seems to be indication that views like this are at all widespread.

[Wallenburg]

There's also the "Liberate CCD" angle. As the region had a founder at the time of liberation, there was no practical effect other than to draw attention to the region. So it would (in my opinion) have failed article II.4

Yes. Is there anyone who is still claiming Liberate CCD was anything but a great publicity and recruitment tool for CCD?

[Lord Dominator]

There's also the "Liberate CCD" angle. As the region had a founder at the time of liberation, there was no practical effect other than to draw attention to the region. So it would (in my opinion) have failed article II.4

Yes. Is there anyone who is still claiming Liberate CCD was anything but a great publicity and recruitment tool for CCD?

At vote it wasn’t - after that it’s hard to know (not that their own active recruitment makes it easy to tell one way or another).

[Cormactopia Prime]

I've made a few last minute changes to the draft:

1. Instead of referring to "nations," the draft now refers to regional "residents" in an attempt to make a clear distinction between RP and OOC while still abiding by Security Council 4th Wall rules. Any concern of RPers being unjustly banned should now be alleviated.
2. Any language that could be construed as being related to nation RP has been stripped. This now pertains exclusively to regions.
3. Any language relating to the General Assembly has been stripped. They can pass their own resolution pertaining to fascism if they wish.
4. I've reverted to referring to "human rights." Sapient bears, marsupials, etc. are a GA thing and me and my RP will continue to assume they don't exist.

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention a new clause that recognizes historic anti-fascist efforts, including Antifa ops and the Civil Defence Siren.

[742]

Great work! I think you nailed it.

[Wallenburg]

I've reverted to referring to "human rights." Sapient bears, marsupials, etc. are a GA thing and me and my RP will continue to assume they don't exist.

Your irrational hatred of GA stuff is blinding you here. Non-human sapients are not a GA thing, they are an RP thing. RP belongs in the SC. Instead of going out of your way to be anti-GA to the detriment of the reality of the SC, why not go with the unmistakeably accurate and RP-friendly "civil rights"?

[Cormactopia Prime]

Your irrational hatred of GA stuff is blinding you here. Non-human sapients are not a GA thing, they are an RP thing. RP belongs in the SC. Instead of going out of your way to be anti-GA to the detriment of the reality of the SC, why not go with the unmistakeably accurate and RP-friendly "civil rights"?

Because I think people who actually care about the Security Council and recognize its existence are fine with the proposal reading "human rights." Should that prove to be inaccurate -- i.e., should I hear otherwise from people actually invested in the SC -- I might be willing to compromise. With them.

[Morover]

Your irrational hatred of GA stuff is blinding you here. Non-human sapients are not a GA thing, they are an RP thing. RP belongs in the SC. Instead of going out of your way to be anti-GA to the detriment of the reality of the SC, why not go with the unmistakeably accurate and RP-friendly "civil rights"?

Because I think people who actually care about the Security Council and recognize its existence are fine with the proposal reading "human rights." Should that prove to be inaccurate -- i.e., should I hear otherwise from people actually invested in the SC -- I might be willing to compromise. With them.

For what it's worth - and I admittedly don't know if I'm one of the people you're willing to listen to - I agree with Wally on this count. In fact, beyond mild irritation of getting caught in the crossfire in this whole debacle, the only real critique I had thought at your changes made here was that "civil rights" is just generally more inclusive than "human rights", regardless of any GA-based connotations. It's your draft, though, and generally, I support it. I'll see if I can do a comb-through later tonight and shoot you some more specific thoughts.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Having heard from Morover and asked other actual SCers about it, I've gone with "civil rights."

[Wallenburg]

Because I think people who actually care about the Security Council and recognize its existence are fine with the proposal reading "human rights." Should that prove to be inaccurate -- i.e., should I hear otherwise from people actually invested in the SC -- I might be willing to compromise. With them.

What makes me not "actually invested" in the SC?

[Cormactopia Prime]

What makes me not "actually invested" in the SC?

Nothing that's remotely germane to this proposal, so I have no interest in indulging you.

In any case, I made the change to "civil rights" since people whose opinions I actually value have confirmed that apparently non-GA RPers might care about it. So it's a moot point now and we can carry on discussing the actual proposal rather than pointlessly arguing over matters tangential to a now resolved issue.

[Christian Confederation]

Sounds like a 1st amendment violation. "I disagree but would Die for your right to say it." Ring a bell?

[Wallenburg]

Sounds like a 1st amendment violation. "I disagree but would Die for your right to say it." Ring a bell?

The First Amendment doesn't apply to states, and certainly not World Assembly states, and most certainly not in a manner where member states may do whatever horrors they wish without international backlash.

[The Hazar Amisnery]

What some fascist nation was quietly enjoying themselves in some region and they weren't openly expressing fascism or they RP being a fascist nation? Do they have to be ejected from their region even if they were a nice person and they weren't breaking any rules?

[Amorosa-Coonarra Coasts]

As a Democratic Socialist / Scandinavian Liberal Paradise, I fully support this Declaration against Fascism.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Having read through the latest draft I think you’ve pretty much nailed it Cormac. Once this goes live I will have no problem recommending support to my Delegate.

What some fascist nation was quietly enjoying themselves in some region and they weren't openly expressing fascism or they RP being a fascist nation? Do they have to be ejected from their region even if they were a nice person and they weren't breaking any rules?

As far as TWP is concerned there is no safe harbour for fascists in our region. The person behind the nation may be a saint in RL, but if they want to RP as a fascist they get booted from TWP.

[Vendellamoore]

Against. Fascism has never advocated for these things you're describing, National Socialism, however, has. You're picking the wrong enemy. National Socialism is a twisted version of Fascism which emphasizes racial purity and whatnot, whereas Classical Fascism never did such.

"Asserting that fascism is an abhorrent ideology that should be granted no safe harbor, as fascism shows utter contempt for civil rights and fuels violent oppression based on race, ethnicity, and other immutable characteristics of identity;"

Fascism does neither. Nazism does both. On the contrary, Fascist thinkers such as Mosley wanted to advance freedoms, not suppress them, and prominent Fascist groups in America want to unite all Americans, regardless of race or ethnicity, just as Mosley envisioned doing in Britain.

This so called "Anti-Fascist action" arbitrarily lumps National Socialists - who do act violently against others based on race and ethnicity - with Fascists, who do not. It is like saying that Socialism and USSR/Chinese communism are the same. Maybe it's just convenient for you, but it's dreadfully inaccurate.

[The Hazar Amisnery]

Having read through the latest draft I think you’ve pretty much nailed it Cormac. Once this goes live I will have no problem recommending support to my Delegate.

What some fascist nation was quietly enjoying themselves in some region and they weren't openly expressing fascism or they RP being a fascist nation? Do they have to be ejected from their region even if they were a nice person and they weren't breaking any rules?

As far as TWP is concerned there is no safe harbour for fascists in our region. The person behind the nation may be a saint in RL, but if they want to RP as a fascist they get booted from TWP.

I guess I'll be voting against this one then. There's a draft declaration that outlaws any form of raiding so all the fascists can make their own region and live there.