[PASSED] Commend Imkiville

[New Rogernomics]

Imki hasn't been involved in TSP for many, many years and her "contributions" to our community were a net negative.

She hasn't been involved there because you and your ilk chase people out whom you don't like. Full stop.

Full support in principle for commending Imki. The draft needs some work, but what it doesn't need is Imki's contributions to TSP omitted because Glen would like it to be so. I don't even think some of Glen's political allies in TSP would agree with his take on this as some of them have worked closely with Imki in the past.

I don't normally post in the Security Council, though I would agree that you can commend someone for some aspect of their actions, while also condemning them for the aspects of those actions that were condemnable.

Question is what part or point of time were her actions in TSP condemnable, and at what point where they commendable?

I think it would need work on what precise actions in TSP within those positions was commendable, so that it doesn't distract or deny from anything that might have been condemnable actions while in those positions.

It should not be ignored that a player can be commended while also not denying they have done things that are condemnable.

Edit: I've been hearing this part is objectively true:

Admiring Imkiville's contributions to the South Pacific, serving as Vice-Delegate, Local Councilor, and Minister of Military Affairs, and that during its tenure as Minister of Military Affairs, they are credited with the revival of the South Pacific Special Forces, allowing it to reach its potential as a powerful force,

So this language could be worked on.

[New Rogernomics]

[...]She's not celebrated in the region, whatever her contributions were pre-coup and in the aftermath.

She participated in the regional military, and ran it well apparently. Some of what you discuss could belong in a condemnation really, as you can simultaneously be bad in a position for one action, but good in it for another.

Though so far I haven't heard anything really on this where she used it for bad ends, is there actually anything she did with the TSP military that was bad, or if so with what operations?

[The Python]

[...]She's not celebrated in the region, whatever her contributions were pre-coup and in the aftermath.

She participated in the regional military, and ran it well apparently. Some of what you discuss could belong in a condemnation really, as you can simultaneously be bad in a position for one action, but good in it for another.

Though so far I haven't heard anything really on this where she used it for bad ends, is there actually anything she did with the TSP military that was bad, or if so with what operations?

More to do with helping Hileville coup TSP in 2016.

[New Rogernomics]

She participated in the regional military, and ran it well apparently. Some of what you discuss could belong in a condemnation really, as you can simultaneously be bad in a position for one action, but good in it for another.

Though so far I haven't heard anything really on this where she used it for bad ends, is there actually anything she did with the TSP military that was bad, or if so with what operations?

More to do with helping Hileville coup TSP in 2016.

Did they actually use the military to try to coup though, or did people who happened to be in the military support the coup? If that is case, either way they can still be assumed to have done a good job up to that point.

[The Python]

More to do with helping Hileville coup TSP in 2016.

Did they actually use the military to try to coup though, or did people who happened to be in the military support the coup? If that is case, either way they can still be assumed to have done a good job up to that point.

No, Imki helped Hileville coup while Vice Delegate, but what is true is that Imki and the rest of the coupers (except presumably Hileville) were forgiven and Imki later became MoMA. Just that TSP is not really a fan because of the coup.

[Outer Sparta]

They look like a commendable nominee and the draft is a good start.

[Unibot III]

Did they actually use the military to try to coup though, or did people who happened to be in the military support the coup? If that is case, either way they can still be assumed to have done a good job up to that point.

No, Imki helped Hileville coup while Vice Delegate, but what is true is that Imki and the rest of the coupers (except presumably Hileville) were forgiven and Imki later became MoMA. Just that TSP is not really a fan because of the coup.

They were provided amnesty as a part of the restoration of the Coalition, but contributing in the coup d'état was a disgraceful act that brought shame to every TSP official who supported it.

The idea that you can just coup a democratic government because you don't like a certain official or whatever is not consistent with the foundations of a constitutional democracy.

It's ridiculous to see Cormac continue to defend Imki and other participants of that coup and argue for reconciliation -- he would have been outraged if someone had tried to coup Osiris to rid Osiris of him, and I doubt very much he would have found their arguments in those cases justified.

In a democratic society, there's a process in place for removing people that need to be removed from office. The occupiers chose to skip that step and bring dishonour to the Coalition instead.

At its heart, the coup was the last hurrah of Independentists and Manifesto-thumpers from TSP, Balder, TNP, & Europeia clinging (by force) to their vision for the South Pacific. This wasn't about Glen-Rhodes, this was about them wanting to turn the clock back on TSP to 2012 when Hileville was a single-handedly the most influential adminstrator in the land and TSP was a part of a close-knitted sphere of 'Independent' foreign partners.

[New Rogernomics]

Did they actually use the military to try to coup though, or did people who happened to be in the military support the coup? If that is case, either way they can still be assumed to have done a good job up to that point.

No, Imki helped Hileville coup while Vice Delegate, but what is true is that Imki and the rest of the coupers (except presumably Hileville) were forgiven and Imki later became MoMA. Just that TSP is not really a fan because of the coup.

From the looks of it, she wasn't leading the military at the time, but Siberian districts was: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=561690

They were provided amnesty as a part of the restoration of the Coalition, but contributing in the coup d'état was a disgraceful act that brought shame to every TSP official who supported it.

I find the issue is that you can commend someone for the same reason as you can condemn them, though in the case of the military it clearly appears like she did a good job, and had already handed over leadership and organization of the military to Siberian districts.

That doesn't excuse what Imkiville/Imkitopia may have done, but at least up to that point you can objectively claim she did do a good job in that area, for the purpose of a commendation.

You could simultaneously argue in a condemnation that her organization of the military helped to facilitate the coup, though at least on this point that is going to be a stretch, unless it can be proven that before Siberian districts took office, Imkiville/Imkitopia's plans in the military were for it to organize a coup.

[The Python]

No, Imki helped Hileville coup while Vice Delegate, but what is true is that Imki and the rest of the coupers (except presumably Hileville) were forgiven and Imki later became MoMA. Just that TSP is not really a fan because of the coup.

From the looks of it, she wasn't leading the military at the time, but Siberian districts was: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=561690

Yes, Imki became MoMA after the coup.

[Cormactopia Prime]

It's ridiculous to see Cormac continue to defend Imki and other participants of that coup and argue for reconciliation -- he would have been outraged if someone had tried to coup Osiris to rid Osiris of him, and I doubt very much he would have found their arguments in those cases justified.

In a democratic society, there's a process in place for removing people that need to be removed from office. The occupiers chose to skip that step and bring dishonour to the Coalition instead.

That's probably true, as no one likes being removed from a region, but there can be justified reasons to remove someone from a region and sometimes when your institutions fail it's necessary to take extrajudicial action. Think back, for example, to the decision in Osiris to just give those involved in the December 2012 coup amnesty through a very lenient plea agreement because it was clear Osiris' institutions could not convict them of any crimes, due to their manipulation of those institutions. Osiris would have been far better off if officials had made the decision to just extrajudicially remove them from the region, ironically something Glen himself has argued since the decision to grant them amnesty was made. Fairly sure you've argued it in the past too, though I may be mistaken.

The OFO 1.0 decided not to make the mistakes of the KRO and extralegally removed them from Osiris, though of course circumstances in that case were somewhat different than the actions Hileville later took in TSP, because Osiris' democratic government had already been dissolved by Detective Figs months earlier. OFO 1.0 was, in effect, "couping a coup" as the transitional government established by Detective Figs still had no constitutional basis.

TL;DR: Not every decision to extralegally remove someone from a region is created equal. Sometimes in NS democratic institutions fail.

At its heart, the coup was the last hurrah of Independentists and Manifesto-thumpers from TSP, Balder, TNP, & Europeia clinging (by force) to their vision for the South Pacific. This wasn't about Glen-Rhodes, this was about them wanting to turn the clock back on TSP to 2012 when Hileville was a single-handedly the most influential adminstrator in the land and TSP was a part of a close-knitted sphere of 'Independent' foreign partners.

This is revisionist history. An argument can be made that Hileville's actions weren't well justified -- not to mention well executed -- and in fact I've repeatedly said since then that I regret my support. But the fact remains that much of that conflict and every conflict during that time period arose from Glen's and Kringalia's questionable administrative decisions and their overall hostility to their political opponents bleeding into actions that should have been impartial. TSP's administrative team was deeply politicized during that era, and it has only become less so because TSP has been reshaped in Glen's image and he no longer has reason to abuse his authority. Say what you will about whether Hileville's actions were excessive, but Glen's constant and blatant attempts to chase his political opponents from TSP, aided and abetted at the time by Kringalia as well as Farengeto acting as a corrupt justice siding with the two of them, weren't healthy. They very much reminded me of the aforementioned 2012 manipulations of Osiris' institutions, which was why I personally supported Hileville.

Regardless of all that, Imki made positive contributions to TSP as Vice Delegate as well and the author should find some way to discuss those. Even if the easier route is taken and her time as Vice Delegate is omitted, her time as Minister of Military Affairs and Local Councillor should remain in the proposal. There likely would not be an SPSF today if Imki hadn't worked to ensure it wasn't disbanded during that era, as many -- Glen included, if I recall correctly -- wanted it to be. She also did nothing that could be construed as wrong during her time as Local Councillor, as far as I know, so I'm unsure why anyone has suggested that be omitted.

[Fauxia]

I won't pretend to know anything about the Hileville coup or Imki's involvement in that (or really very much else about Imki, except a bit from 2018-), but that's not the point. If it's going to be a millstone, why include it? I understand that Glen is... Glen, so maybe he is misrepresenting history and maybe he doesn't speak for TSP per se, but he does hold influence there, and if it's more palatable to TSP without that clause, it seems like a plus. Is anyone besides three old gameplayers going to care/vote against because it isn't there?

Maybe TSP doesn't care besides Glen, in which case it can stay. But the question here is not a historical one but a political one. It's whether TSP is actually more likely to vote for without the proposal, not whether the Hileville coup was justified or not. Let's not forget that there is a thread about a real proposal here. This is not the NSHistory thread.

I hope this isn't coming off as super passive aggressive. I like the historical discussions, but I do think they are obfuscating the real question at hand.

[Cormactopia Prime]

If it's going to be a millstone, why include it?

There's something to be said for recognizing someone's actual contributions and not just the contributions their political opponents would prefer. The commendation is supposed to be about Imki and what she's done, not about Glen and Unibot and what they want. Imki's positive contributions to TSP should be included.

I really hope if the author is going to consider removing material related to TSP, they will at least retain Imki's contributions as Minister of Military Affairs. She served as Minister after the coup, after being granted amnesty, and there is nothing about her time as MoMA that was anything short of commendable. It's one thing to perhaps remove discussion of her tenure as Vice Delegate given it was perhaps unremarkable aside from participation in Hileville's coup, but her contribution to the SPSF was significant and worth inclusion. Her contributions to TSP shouldn't be totally erased just because Glen and Unibot would prefer to rewrite history and pretend nothing about the independent era of TSP or the contributions made by those who preferred independence and opposed them were positive.

I also don't know of any reason her tenure as Local Councillor shouldn't be included, as I'm not aware of any controversy surrounding it. If someone's argument is that she didn't do anything remarkable as Local Councillor, I'm not that familiar with her tenure in that office so it may be valid.

[Fauxia]

If it's going to be a millstone, why include it?

There's something to be said for recognizing someone's actual contributions and not just the contributions their political opponents would prefer. The commendation is supposed to be about Imki and what she's done, not about Glen and Unibot and what they want. Imki's positive contributions to TSP should be included.

Moralism again. The Security Council is a political body, and this should be up to Imki and to Debussy what they want and what they want to risk, not to the peanut gallery.

[Auphelia]

Maybe TSP doesn't care besides Glen, in which case it can stay. But the question here is not a historical one but a political one. It's whether TSP is actually more likely to vote for without the proposal, not whether the Hileville coup was justified or not. Let's not forget that there is a thread about a real proposal here. This is not the NSHistory thread.

I hope this isn't coming off as super passive aggressive. I like the historical discussions, but I do think they are obfuscating the real question at hand.

As a TSPer founded after the events of this coup occurred (as the vast majority of TSPers are), I can firmly say that I care very little about the coup as it happened other than an interesting bit of information from our history. I do not presume to know or make assumptions about who was right or wrong, but I would say that if Imki's contributions to the MoMA were so great, do include them in the proposal.

TSPers vote in our OWL programme on how our Delegate will put his vote in the WA, so the issue of how we swing with a Commendation is usually down to whether we're feeling nice on a particular day.

I also don't know of any reason her tenure as Local Councillor shouldn't be included, as I'm not aware of any controversy surrounding it. If someone's argument is that she didn't do anything remarkable as Local Councillor, I'm not that familiar with her tenure in that office so it may be valid.

Speaking as a current Local Councillor of the South Pacific and the longest serving Councillor in the history of the institution, we have changed quite significantly in structure and purpose since her days in office. I do not know of her actions while she was an LC, but given she was in the position for nineteen days, I do not think there is much of anything she could have done to merit inclusion for a Commendation in that time.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Moralism again. The Security Council is a political body, and this should be up to Imki and to Debussy what they want and what they want to risk, not to the peanut gallery.

The "peanut gallery" are voters, and if Glen and Unibot are going to speak up in opposition of including the TSP portion and no one speaks up in favor of keeping it, it could present a distorted view that leads the author to think it's safer dropping everything related to TSP. I don't believe that's the case, because I don't even think most voters in TSP would want the portion related to her time as MoMA removed just because Glen and Unibot want it. It's important to remember that even among defenders, and even defenders in TSP, Glen is often not representative of their views -- and years into gameplay retirement, Unibot certainly isn't.

Thank you to Auphelia for contributing a more reasonable, alternative point of view from within TSP to demonstrate Glen may not be representative of TSP's views.

[Roavin]

TSP's administrative team was deeply politicized during that era, and it has only become less so

I strongly object to this characterization.

First, there were multiple issues that led to the 2016 constitutional crisis, not just the one citizenship issue, and where those involved administrative issues, there were steps taken to prevent those from happening again. For example, Administrator and Moderators cannot see every forum as they could back in 2015, and an attempt by admins to grant themselves viewing access is logged and auditable. On the citizenship issue, shortly after, an extra page was coded by Glen himself for anybody to easily check the posting requirements regardless of their forum access (though this page was not used much, since TSP changed its requirements for keeping status shortly after). I was added to the team in 2018, and after the incidents later that year, we completely overhauled the system entirely. We separated the technical work from the moderation work by creating a separate moderation team, which does not include Glen but does include famed Glen-opponent Belschaft, and even the rest of the roster is obviously not a bunch of Glen-sycophants. We also established our Community Standards, a significant upgrade to our previous standards and enjoys widespread support within the community.

To say that the TSP administrative setup is politicized is simply unfactual.

She served as Minister after the coup, after being granted amnesty, and there is nothing about her time as MoMA that was anything short of commendable.

As somebody that served under her in SPSF during that time, I can confirm this. Her tenure as MoMA absolutely belongs into a commendation.

[Mzeusia]

I'd like examples of the artwork and how exactly they have influenced cultures. Also, I don't think you need to say that the nation can be "easily described as awesome," because if that is true, your finalised proposal should make that obvious.

[Cormactopia Prime]

To say that the TSP administrative setup is politicized is simply unfactual.

I said it was deeply politicized, and had become less so, which is entirely consistent with everything you just said.

She served as Minister after the coup, after being granted amnesty, and there is nothing about her time as MoMA that was anything short of commendable.

As somebody that served under her in SPSF during that time, I can confirm this. Her tenure as MoMA absolutely belongs into a commendation.

Thanks for speaking up so people can see a more nuanced view from TSP.

[Roavin]

To say that the TSP administrative setup is politicized is simply unfactual.

I said it was deeply politicized, and had become less so, which is entirely consistent with everything you just said.

whoops I misunderstood - still, it's certainly not because of TSP being more "in Glen's image".

[Fauxia]

The "peanut gallery" are voters

Not TSP voters, though, who you would expect to be most sensitive to the issue and its presentation.

and if Glen and Unibot are going to speak up in opposition of including the TSP portion and no one speaks up in favor of keeping it, it could present a distorted view that leads the author to think it's safer dropping everything related to TSP.

Again, I don't really think your vote or Unibot's is as relevant as a normal TSPer in this regard. But you seem to be misunderstanding that I very much mean Unibot when I say "peanut gallery". His vote is not relevant to TSP's either and holds very little political sway.

I don't believe that's the case, because I don't even think most voters in TSP would want the portion related to her time as MoMA removed just because Glen and Unibot want it. It's important to remember that even among defenders, and even defenders in TSP, Glen is often not representative of their views -- and years into gameplay retirement, Unibot certainly isn't.

I literally said something to the same effect in my original post, so I'm glad you agree with me

Thank you to Auphelia for contributing a more reasonable, alternative point of view from within TSP to demonstrate Glen may not be representative of TSP's views.

Indeed, it's good to get a word in from voters who are actually relevant to the discussion at hand.

I'd like examples of the artwork and how exactly they have influenced cultures. Also, I don't think you need to say that the nation can be "easily described as awesome," because if that is true, your finalised proposal should make that obvious.

I don't know Imki very much, but from all my interactions I think she's considered to be one of the cooler people in NSGP, so I think it makes sense. It's good to have a few silly lines in there anyway. The Security Council should not take itself too seriously. It's a little image on a page on a browser game.

[Zukchiva]

I agree with Fauxia about leaving out the TSP stuff if Imki/Debussy want it done. Ideally all or most of Imki's notable contributions would be included in a commend, but for some things it has to be considered whether it's worth including X item if it risks downing the proposal or significantly decreasing its chances of passing. In this case, whether including TSP stuff could cause TSP's WA voters to be against the resolution or not.

In my noobish opinion, I would recommend at least keeping the Ministry of Military Affairs bit and expanding heavily on it as I suggested earlier. It was post-coup and it seems (from this thread and the general concept of the amnesty) that TSP seems fine w/ Imki's service as MoMA and that Imki's service basically kept SPSF alive. But again, I think it's fine if the TSP stuff is avoided if the author/nominee feel it best.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

I've known Imki peripherally for a long time and more closely for less, though it's all post-Hileville coup. I've likewise been a member of TSP since 2017 and even though I was active in NS at the time, I know very little other than biased hearsay about what went down during and after the coup. What I can say is this: as a two-time Minister of Military Affairs/Defense and a longtime SPSFer, a lot of the foundational work for the current SPSF is thanks to Imki. Her term as MoMA, from how I understand it, is what really started the SPSF on the course to where it is today. It may have not been the defender military it is now, but almost everyone I've talk to who was in or around the SPSF at the time says that Imki's term was critical for the continued success of the SPSF over the five years since.

So broadly speaking, I support at least including the part about her term as MoMA. The rest I could take or leave - I understand if it risks tanking the proposal then it may not be worth keeping.

Still, I understand that many people can't just take the MoMA stuff in a vacuum and I think it's especially fair and important that Glen brought up the point and for it to be a point of debate here, especially considering the position he was put in.

[Sandaoguo]

To say that the TSP administrative setup is politicized is simply unfactual.

I said it was deeply politicized, and had become less so, which is entirely consistent with everything you just said.

TSP's admin team was not "politicized." The whole basis of Hileville's coup was that an admin (Kris) should've allegedly lost citizenship because he didn't post on the forums. The issue was that Kris did post, just not in places that Imki (Vice Delegate) could see. The admins were the ones that previously did citizenship checks, and when that was shifted to the Vice Delegate, the forum permissions and the laws of which areas "counted" didn't change. It went from admins doing activity checks to the VD doing the checks and sending admins a list of inactive nations. It was admins that wanted to VD to do the checks, so that we weren't being asked to conduct a political function, since people tended to get up in arms any time a popular person went inactive and had their citizenship removed.

The admins (not just me) gave Imki the proof of the posts Kris made, explained that Kris did meet the requirements, and we would create something so that the VD could see total posts in all areas, even if they didn't have access to the forums. (In the meantime, the laws around what areas of the forum counted were never changed.) I made the custom page Roavin mentioned, that gave all that information straight from the forum database. Never heard a word from Imki on the subject again. Not until Hileville and she couped and offered that as their reason, referring to it as "admin abuse."

It was a wholly concocted story. In reality, what really happened is that Hileville wanted to be in charge of everything again. He used to own TSP's forums, until he ragequit and shut down the IP.Board install he owned, leaving us to scramble to set up our current MyBB forum. A while after that, he re-entered TSP and worked his way up to Delegate. It doesn't take a genius to understand his motives, especially when he hijacked the TSP domain to point at his own forums.

Anyways, even if you bought the propaganda they invented about "admin abuse" at the time, TSP's court sided against them. They ignored the court, declared the Charter invalid, and then proceeded to ban the justice (Farengeto). At that point, it was undeniably a coup. And that's what Imki still feels she was in the right taking part in. She was debatably given "amnesty" (though never sincerely apologized for her involvement, which was a requirement) because Tsunamy demanded it and browbeat the rest of us into it in the spirit of "unity." If Imki actually was contrite, rather than saying she was right and would do it again every time she's asked, the story would be different here. But she's not.

I don't care what she did as Minister of Military Affairs. Her net contribution to TSP was negative. Why anybody thinks her commendation should stand on anything related to TSP is mystifying. She did far more in other regions and TSP is, if anything, a stain on her career. It baffles me that anybody would bother with the headache of trying to include TSP, when the commendation can easily be passed without it. Is the only reason basically trolling those Imki banned in the coup? Makes no sense.

[Lazarene Ryccia]

As far as I am aware, commendations are where you put all the positive achievements and triumphs of the person under consideration. I was there when the SPSF was about to be disbanded. It was seriously considered, but Imki ended up leading it and did a stellar work on reviving it. People seriously considered dissolving TSP's regional military. If it wasn't for her, the SPSF would be a distant memory, or, if another competent military commander of her caliber didn't come along, it would be seen as a third-rate force up there with Balder's Jomsvikings (no offense, it's just that, in my experience, I've never seen Balder be prominent militarily, bar as a supporting player in GCR coup interventions). That long-lasting contribution to our present reality merits recognition, and since people are now trying to take it away due to personal grudges over separate events, I see it as necessary to include it now so we don't erase history.

If anything, I think defenders (especially long-standing 'fendas like Glen that have wanted TSP to be defender for ages) should ironically thank her in my view (yes, clench your teeth tight and do what must be done) for the SPSF's existence as a professional and recognized defender force, and, I'd dare wager, for TSP's present defender stance and influence in the defender sphere. In R/D foreign policy, militaries, and how they are used, are essential to shift a region's alignment and/or the region's prominence in an ideological camp. If the SPSF was just a subpar organization or nonexistent, notable defenders could not have pushed TSP's formal ideological and diplomatic conversion to defenderism, or at least not as fast as they did. Even if they did succeed domestically, I'd see a defender TSP without a strong (or just decent, let's call it decent) military as a minor partner in its new club of friends and allies in the 'fenda sphere. What could TSP, or any region worth its weight, contribute to the defender cause and the defender sphere if one of its primary tools used to advance its ideological interests, the military, is a disorganized and unviable mess?

Say what you will, see her as a devil, an angel or anything in between. Whether you hate her, love her, or just are just ambivalent about her, whatever ill Imki may have done in TSP is another matter for discussion. It is the long-term impact individuals have in our current reality that are far more deserving of recognition. If, in an alternate timeline, the SPSF would've been saved from its grave or made even better by another person doesn't matter, since, out of all the possible destinies, this is the one we got, and she was the one who did it. The SPSF as it currently stands would've never been the same without her. After all, Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was the SPSF.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I don't care what she did as Minister of Military Affairs. Her net contribution to TSP was negative. Why anybody thinks her commendation should stand on anything related to TSP is mystifying. She did far more in other regions and TSP is, if anything, a stain on her career. It baffles me that anybody would bother with the headache of trying to include TSP, when the commendation can easily be passed without it. Is the only reason basically trolling those Imki banned in the coup? Makes no sense.

Based on the comments made by other prominent citizens of TSP, including the current Prime Minister, it looks like you're very much in the minority in TSP on this.

It's even less likely other regions will care about it, so if I were the author I'd pay your complaints no attention and move forward with mentioning her contributions as Minister of Military Affairs and omitting mentions of her tenure as Vice Delegate and Local Councillor. Glen is just one vote.