NationStates

Qhevak wrote:"Strongly opposed. Here in Qhevak a large portion of their populace alters their own gender and sexual identity on the regular for fun and novelty, which can be easily and safely performed and reversed in short order with a neural lace. This is a horribly stifling restriction on personal mental autonomy."

“I question whether one altering one’s own identity, or any aspect of one’s person, qualifies as an ‘intervention’. To me, that term implies the efforts of someone else. Presuming that Qhevak’s technology is sufficient to allow one person to alter their own gender identity without any others being involved, there might be room for that to be allowed. Ask the gnomes.

Anyway, I support wholeheartedly the new draft.”

Tinhampton wrote:Smith: This proposal has three main provisions: that conversion therapy should be banned in all circumstances, that conversion therapy should never be advertised, and that member states ought to support victims and likely victims of conversion therapy. I will submit this in the extremely near future if none of my fellow delegates find fault with it, with any of the provisions above, or with the disclaimer that gender affirmation therapy is not conversion therapy - which I hope will be increasingly the case now that references to an undefined concept of "gender expression" have been removed. Thanks, Suzie.

"You continue to have our full support, ambassador. This is short and to the point, and it neatly addresses the topic."

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:What do you exactly mean “shatter”? It’s not like receiving a shot from a canister shell during Third island War and living to tell the tale makes you a weak person, I hope you agree. And don’t even get me started on the wonders of trench medicine I had to endure...

Look, some people really don’t want to be what they are. My assistant for example is really dissatisfied with his race- and if he plans to change it via race-conversion therapy that’s his right. Sure, in your culture conversion therapy may be viewed as something demoniacal or outright wrong, however, in Lakan culture that’s as usual as, say, getting a shot. We are all for voluntary treatment of various mindsets and have both the will and the methods to do it.

"Ambassador, I have neither the time nor the inclination to sit here and give you a full education on the intensity or risks that are involved in BDSM. And even if I did, this is not the proper location for such an education, nor do I think the other ambassadors would appreciate it if I did start the explanation. 'Shatter' was not misused and let's leave it at that."

She pauses as she hears that, then purses her lips. So, conversion therapy is possibly a different concept. Or... no, they couldn't be that barbaric, could they? Surely no one... I better ask. He might be referring to the Celski Hypothesis. Possible a nation has nanotech that advanced.

"I apologize, ambassador. There appears to be a translation failure. Are you implying that is someone is dissatisfied with their race, you have some kind of shot to change their mind to where they are satisfied? Or are you implying there is some kind of shot to change their body?"

OOC: It's hilarious to be writing someone who is dressed like they walked straight out of Medieval Europe thinking about theories about nanotechnology.

Trellania wrote:She pauses as she hears that, then purses her lips. So, conversion therapy is possibly a different concept. Or... no, they couldn't be that barbaric, could they? Surely no one... I better ask. He might be referring to the Celski Hypothesis. Possible a nation has nanotech that advanced.

"I apologize, ambassador. There appears to be a translation failure. Are you implying that is someone is dissatisfied with their race, you have some kind of shot to change their mind to where they are satisfied? Or are you implying there is some kind of shot to change their body?"

OOC: It's hilarious to be writing someone who is dressed like they walked straight out of Medieval Europe thinking about theories about nanotechnology.

OOC: Obraztsova is dressed like she had just walked out of a cafe aboard the Titanic bruh.
Well, how do I say it, we have both. We use extensive mental treatment, genetic and surgical modification to alter person’s genetics, bodily and mental characteristics in order to fit his desired race and/or ethnicity.

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:

Trellania wrote:She pauses as she hears that, then purses her lips. So, conversion therapy is possibly a different concept. Or... no, they couldn't be that barbaric, could they? Surely no one... I better ask. He might be referring to the Celski Hypothesis. Possible a nation has nanotech that advanced.

"I apologize, ambassador. There appears to be a translation failure. Are you implying that is someone is dissatisfied with their race, you have some kind of shot to change their mind to where they are satisfied? Or are you implying there is some kind of shot to change their body?"

OOC: It's hilarious to be writing someone who is dressed like they walked straight out of Medieval Europe thinking about theories about nanotechnology.

OOC: Obraztsova is dressed like she had just walked out of a cafe aboard the Titanic bruh.
Well, how do I say it, we have both. We use extensive mental treatment, genetic and surgical modification to alter person’s genetics, bodily and mental characteristics in order to fit his desired race and/or ethnicity.

OOC: Please stop projecting your own racial self-hatred into your RPs. It's quite unsettling.

Smith: Madam, please read the resolution providing for Restrictions on Forced Eugenics... I think so, anyway. I'll submit this on Tuesday or Wednesday absent any major concerns expressed regarding the proposal as it stands.

Tinhampton wrote:Smith: Madam, please read the resolution providing for Restrictions on Forced Eugenics... I think so, anyway. I'll submit this on Tuesday or Wednesday absent any major concerns expressed regarding the proposal as it stands.

I’ve stated before that they such operations are voluntary, Ambassador. We’re not forcing anyone into this.

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Well, how do I say it, we have both. We use extensive mental treatment, genetic and surgical modification to alter person’s genetics, bodily and mental characteristics in order to fit his desired race and/or ethnicity.

Dame Allania simply stares. Those people are madmen. Utterly insane.

"I'm sorry, ambassador, but that sounds like a violation of WA #38 Convention Against Genocide. And if it is somehow not, I suspect it is a procedure that, for most nations, would be classified as something other than conversion therapy. As such, I think I speak for everyone when I say I do not see how your objection applies to this proposal."

Trellania wrote:

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Well, how do I say it, we have both. We use extensive mental treatment, genetic and surgical modification to alter person’s genetics, bodily and mental characteristics in order to fit his desired race and/or ethnicity.

Dame Allania simply stares. Those people are madmen. Utterly insane.

"I'm sorry, ambassador, but that sounds like a violation of WA #38 Convention Against Genocide. And if it is somehow not, I suspect it is a procedure that, for most nations, would be classified as something other than conversion therapy. As such, I think I speak for everyone when I say I do not see how your objection applies to this proposal."

“It would violate clause 2 only if that procedure was done with the aim to destroy a particular sexuality, race or another innate characteristic. Were this proposal to pass, then Strolistandiler would be in violation of the legislation regardless of the aims of that practice.”

Trellania wrote:

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Well, how do I say it, we have both. We use extensive mental treatment, genetic and surgical modification to alter person’s genetics, bodily and mental characteristics in order to fit his desired race and/or ethnicity.

Dame Allania simply stares. Those people are madmen. Utterly insane.

"I'm sorry, ambassador, but that sounds like a violation of WA #38 Convention Against Genocide. And if it is somehow not, I suspect it is a procedure that, for most nations, would be classified as something other than conversion therapy. As such, I think I speak for everyone when I say I do not see how your objection applies to this proposal."

Ambassador, that is, I believe, a result of poor wording on my side. Firstly, racial conversion therapy is not targeted at specific races or ethnicities. Secondly, it’s not food down anybody’s throat...

Kenmoria wrote:“It would violate clause 2 only if that procedure was done with the aim to destroy a particular sexuality, race or another innate characteristic. Were this proposal to pass, then Strolistandiler would be in violation of the legislation regardless of the aims of that practice.”

Indeed, which is why we are planning to resign should this pass.

Kenmoria wrote:

Trellania wrote:
Dame Allania simply stares. Those people are madmen. Utterly insane.

"I'm sorry, ambassador, but that sounds like a violation of WA #38 Convention Against Genocide. And if it is somehow not, I suspect it is a procedure that, for most nations, would be classified as something other than conversion therapy. As such, I think I speak for everyone when I say I do not see how your objection applies to this proposal."

“It would violate clause 2 only if that procedure was done with the aim to destroy a particular sexuality, race or another innate characteristic. Were this proposal to pass, then Strolistandiler would be in violation of the legislation regardless of the aims of that practice.”

Dame Allania facepalms. "Wouldn't that be covered under clause c, since the people undergoing it are willing and it could technically be a..." she stops and shudders. "Nope. Can't make that argument. It's just too vile to allow."

She sighs. "I have to concede I merely made that argument because I do not want to hear the details of such insanity in an argument."

OOC: This topic has officially squicked Dame Allania. I didn't think that would ever happen.

Trellania wrote:

Kenmoria wrote:“It would violate clause 2 only if that procedure was done with the aim to destroy a particular sexuality, race or another innate characteristic. Were this proposal to pass, then Strolistandiler would be in violation of the legislation regardless of the aims of that practice.”

Dame Allania facepalms. "Wouldn't that be covered under clause c, since the people undergoing it are willing and it could technically be a..." she stops and shudders. "Nope. Can't make that argument. It's just too vile to allow."

She sighs. "I have to concede I merely made that argument because I do not want to hear the details of such insanity in an argument."

OOC: This topic has officially squicked Dame Allania. I didn't think that would ever happen.

“You are correct, ambassador, that Stroslistandiler will not be in noncompliance based solely on their procedure to somehow modify gender identity, I believe. However, given that they can also alter sexual orientation, with technology far beyond Kenmorian standard, that is not sufficient to give them a pass. The legislative details are interesting, but the situation is certainly rather... unorthodox to say the least.”

Ambassador Lewitt spends a few moments looking at his phone, scrolling through some text files of transcripts of past debates in the GA chambers. “I’m fairly certain that this is the first instance of such an idea ever having been mentioned, at least for as long as I’ve been here.”

Kenmoria wrote:“You are correct, ambassador, that Stroslistandiler will not be in noncompliance based solely on their procedure to somehow modify gender identity, I believe. However, given that they can also alter sexual orientation, with technology far beyond Kenmorian standard, that is not sufficient to give them a pass. The legislative details are interesting, but the situation is certainly rather... unorthodox to say the least.”

Ambassador Lewitt spends a few moments looking at his phone, scrolling through some text files of transcripts of past debates in the GA chambers. “I’m fairly certain that this is the first instance of such an idea ever having been mentioned, at least for as long as I’ve been here.”

Well, most of this tech was developed and tested before we entered the WA, with some of the testing outsourced to the colonies who are not members... This eases the matter.
And clause c still would render us a non-complian nation because this is a gender reassignment treatment.

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:

Kenmoria wrote:“You are correct, ambassador, that Stroslistandiler will not be in noncompliance based solely on their procedure to somehow modify gender identity, I believe. However, given that they can also alter sexual orientation, with technology far beyond Kenmorian standard, that is not sufficient to give them a pass. The legislative details are interesting, but the situation is certainly rather... unorthodox to say the least.”

Ambassador Lewitt spends a few moments looking at his phone, scrolling through some text files of transcripts of past debates in the GA chambers. “I’m fairly certain that this is the first instance of such an idea ever having been mentioned, at least for as long as I’ve been here.”

Well, most of this tech was developed and tested before we entered the WA, with some of the testing outsourced to the colonies who are not members... This eases the matter.
And clause c still would render us a non-complian nation because this is a gender reassignment treatment.

“Yes, I agree that your nation is noncompliant no matter what. Clause b is fairly direct in this matter, making no provision for any exceptions.”

Jylien Barwald smiles, and unconsciously touches the wedding ring that his husband slid over his finger only half a decade ago. "It goes without saying that this receives Daarwyrth's unconditional support. And to be honest, we have never understood why a cruel and barbaric practice like "conversion therapy" ever was called into existence. Let alone that nations would allow such a practice within their borders."

Daarwyrth wrote:Jylien Let alone that nations would allow such a practice within their borders."

Honestly we ourselves don’t understand the reason why Laka wasn’t yet destroyed... I guess what’s already dead can’t be killed...

support

I see very little here that differs from #437.

Wayneactia wrote:I see very little here that differs from #437.

That's why I plan to consign Four Thirty-Seven to the recycle bin of history the first chance I get

Tinhampton wrote:

Wayneactia wrote:I see very little here that differs from #437.

That's why I plan to consign Four Thirty-Seven to the recycle bin of history the first chance I get

How exactly are you planning on passing this, while #437 is in force, when it pretty much just duplicates #437? Is there some new rule, that allows for a replacement to be passed which is damn near identical, only if you promise to repeal the existing resolution afterwards?

A message is sent to the drafting chamber by wire.

Smith scrambles to the nearest telecommunications machiney thing and hammers out the following:

Tinhampton wrote:Smith scrambles to the nearest telecommunications machiney thing and hammers out the following:

From Alex Smith in DR2283
To Chief Rep Ogenbond

What procedures are you talking about and how is their criminalisation in this proposal any more concerning than their criminalisation in Resolution 437? See also Article 3...

What this?

clarifies that this resolution does not affect the right of willing individuals to seek and receive gender-adequation or -affirmation procedures, and

Yet #437 does pretty much ban that.

Prohibits any person or organisation in a World Assembly member-state from performing conversion therapy on minors,

Prohibits any public or governmental body in a World Assembly member-state from recommending or performing conversion therapy on any individual,

Now seeing as how these two contradict each other, how do you propose to solve this minor dilemma?

Trellania wrote:"Any BDSM practicioner knows there is a galaxy of difference between BDSM and torture."

Linda muttered quietly, "Safe, sane and consensual, and then you can call it torture, or play, or whatever the participants agree on before the session... But safewords exist for a reason."

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Look, some people really don’t want to be what they are. My assistant for example is really dissatisfied with his race- and if he plans to change it via race-conversion therapy that’s his right.

OOC: My character wouldn't touch that with a ten-metre pole, so I'll bite OOCly: how does that work? They brainwash him to believe he's black instead of white? EDIT: If you mean physical transitioning, somehow, then that's not equivalent to conversion therapy to begin with.

Wayneactia wrote:

Tinhampton wrote:Smith scrambles to the nearest telecommunications machiney thing and hammers out the following:

From Alex Smith in DR2283
To Chief Rep Ogenbond

What procedures are you talking about and how is their criminalisation in this proposal any more concerning than their criminalisation in Resolution 437? See also Article 3...

What this?

clarifies that this resolution does not affect the right of willing individuals to seek and receive gender-adequation or -affirmation procedures, and

Yet #437 does pretty much ban that.

Prohibits any person or organisation in a World Assembly member-state from performing conversion therapy on minors,

Prohibits any public or governmental body in a World Assembly member-state from recommending or performing conversion therapy on any individual,

Now seeing as how these two contradict each other, how do you propose to solve this minor dilemma

OOC: How do they contradict? You're allowed to seek and receive the procedures, outside of WA member states. EDIT for clarification: The prohibition is for peeps or organizations from performing or recommending. It is not a prohibition for seeking and receiving. Thus, going out of WA member nations to get the brainwashing torture voluntarily would be allowed.

Araraukar wrote:Linda muttered quietly, "Safe, sane and consensual, and then you can call it torture, or play, or whatever the participants agree on before the session... But safewords exist for a reason."

Dame Allania's eyes shoot to Linda, and a brief smile decorates her lips before she turns back to the matter at hand.

OOC: My character wouldn't touch that with a ten-metre pole, so I'll bite OOCly: how does that work? They brainwash him to believe he's black instead of white? EDIT: If you mean physical transitioning, somehow, then that's not equivalent to conversion therapy to begin with.

OOC: Probably standard human programming methods in a more advanced form. So your standard combination of sleep deprivation, drug cocktails, repetition by machines of what the new personality is to consist of, and probably some random torture for the particularly tough cases.

Trellania wrote:

Araraukar wrote:OOC: My character wouldn't touch that with a ten-metre pole, so I'll bite OOCly: how does that work? They brainwash him to believe he's black instead of white? EDIT: If you mean physical transitioning, somehow, then that's not equivalent to conversion therapy to begin with.

OOC: Probably standard human programming methods in a more advanced form. So your standard combination of sleep deprivation, drug cocktails, repetition by machines of what the new personality is to consist of, and probably some random torture for the particularly tough cases.

OOC: Well, yeah, but that works on things that are in the mind, it doesn't change the body. What Laka's characters seemed to be referring to would have changed the person physically too, which is not what conservation therapy is - it'd be more the equivalent for transitioning of transgender individuals. I don't know if Laka just doesn't know the difference, but the thought of brainwashing being used to make someone believe they're dark-skinned, while they actually remain light-skinned, is just utterly amusing to me.