[PASSED] Liberate The Embassy

[President Drumpf]

I fail to see where the lie is. The fact of the matter is that LNA was destroyed despite Europeia and The North Pacific's involvement

You mean that the region was destroyed after Europeia and the North Pacific had withdrawn and the operation concluded? And, unless I am very much mistaken, weren't you yourself involved in the final password locking of the region, which is what actually killed the region? You seem to conveniently forget that part.

And that's rather the trouble with operations like this. If Frenchy says that it's not a refound, sure. I believe that Frenchy believes that, but such a statement does not account for all parties involved and what they may feel like doing in the spur of the moment. Most especially if, as Comfed so kindly points out, natives who are justifiably upset about the destruction do not respond with smiles and rainbows. For in that case, all previous bets are off, some splinter of the original party will return and wipe out what remains.

Please - there's only a single native to my knowledge, and they seem perfectly civil so far. You seem more concerned about the abstract than the situation at hand.

When has XKI made grand statements about Liberations? Not saying they never did, I just can't think of one off the top of my mind.

The mere draft of "Liberate Asia" was hailed as a victory by defenders. One can assume what happens if such a proposal were to actually pass.

[HumanSanity]

Everyone can see what 10000 Islands is doing here. Here’s a fact for you: HumanSanity and his region (10000 Islands) have not attempted to help the Embassy a single time. Simply look at the regional happenings and you can see that only five updaters led by the Python actually attempted to do anything about the raid. Why are they so concerned in the WA but refuse to do anything else?

As you're no doubt aware, there's some update bending going on which has added to the operational difficulty of conducting a jump here. Of course, people are working on correcting that issue, but until that's done, people will evaluate all their options. One of the surest ways for this to resolve is a passed Liberation, a slow raider withdrawal due to lack of resources to sustain the operation, and a repeal to the Liberation.

Here’s my best guess at what is going to happen:
a) the liberation passes. This is 10000 Islands’ ideal outcome: the embassies close, the raiders leave as they had planned to, and 10000 Islands gets to make grand statements about how their proposal saved the poor, helpless natives. Those poor, helpless natives will be left stripped of a password and left to the mercy of tag raiders every update, but that is not 10KI’s concern: after all, they got the propaganda victory they wanted.

I am not pursuing propaganda as you suggest. After all, if I'm right and this could potentially get refounded and it happened, that would be an even greater propaganda victory, wouldn't it?

I have every intention of repealing the Liberation once the region is secure and allowing the natives to put up a new, secure password. A Liberation is the only way to secure the #1 objective of three that were listed to me by A Goblinoid Merchant, which is to preserve the region and its RMB without a refound.

Lastly, this all presumes I trust you. I don't. Your incentive to come through here and claim you are not going to attempt a refound is massive. Frankly, there is zero reason to believe a word of it.

I have no doubt that they will attempt to discredit my post based on “but raider!!” - I will simply point out that Europeia would never approve of us refounding the region, and even if we wanted to we wouldn’t do something our allies are not comfortable with. Of note is that HS himself pointed out that Europeia will not support region destruction. He then made a vague attempt at countering that by pointing out Liberty Nations Alliance - but of course he wasn’t being truthful on that. The fact is that Liberty Nations Alliance was left undamaged for the duration of the op. Afterwards, an RO received the delegacy and, after everyone including Europeia and the North Pacific had withdrawn and he was left with less than 20 endorsements, decided to use his influence. Afterwards, the Black Hawks returned to password the region on their own. Europeia at no point approved or was involved in the region’s destruction. To claim otherwise is misleading.

I didn't say Europeia agreed to the region's destruction. I said Europeia provided pilers (to prevent defenders from liberating) and therefore also provided influence (with which to banject natives and password) and then that those things were used to shut down the region. With no accountability towards LWU or TBH for having done so on a Europeia-sanctioned/piled operation.

Respectfully, I even believe Europeia doesn't think region destruction will result. Maybe you even believe it. But LNA proves that things happen, and if one raider is in the right place at the right time natives go out the door. This is why backup Liberations are drafted and passed, even when raiders trot out platitudes about how they don't intend to grief (which, notably in this case, did not appear for 24 hours after the raid! Like y'all forgot that trick...).

[Eshialand]

Once this liberation passes (if it passes) I'd love to help rebuild The Embassy and assist it in its goal. As an added bonus, the nation that I move in (with the native's permission, of course) can act as a defender sleeper gathering influence just in case something like this ever happens again. (And let's hope it doesn't)

[President Drumpf]

I am not pursuing propaganda as you suggest.

"I am not doing what you accuse me of. Regards, me."

Haven't you previously disregarded other people's promises because all you had to go by was their word?

After all, if I'm right and this could potentially get refounded and it happened, that would be an even greater propaganda victory, wouldn't it?

Doing so would be of far greater cost than any propaganda victory is worth. You know this as well.

A Liberation is the only way to secure the #1 objective of three that were listed to me by A Goblinoid Merchant, which is to preserve the region and its RMB without a refound.

Earlier on in the same post it was "one of the surest ways", but now it's changed to "the only way" already? Besides there being very little indication that any such refound would happen, and despite the available evidence you have pointing towards a conclusion that the region will not be refounded?

Lastly, this all presumes I trust you. I don't. Your incentive to come through here and claim you are not going to attempt a refound is massive. Frankly, there is zero reason to believe a word of it.

Seems I don't even have to dig up quotes from earlier. Somehow we are supposed to trust your word, but not everyone you disagree with?

I didn't say Europeia agreed to the region's destruction. I said Europeia provided pilers (to prevent defenders from liberating) and therefore also provided influence (with which to banject natives and password) and then that those things were used to shut down the region.

You still have not produced a single shred of evidence that makes such a thing likely to occur here.

Respectfully, I even believe Europeia doesn't think region destruction will result. Maybe you even believe it. But LNA proves that things happen, and if one raider is in the right place at the right time natives go out the door.

Oh, really? So a raider left in the delegacy after the operation has concluded is the threat now? And the Security Council needs to solve that, because defenders can't be bothered to actually take the delegacy and detag the region, as was the case in LNA?

[Atheris]

"So, I assume the big blue button is 'for' and the big red one is 'against'? Alright, uh... sorry, still getting used to this body... there we are. For!"

[Lord Dominator]

raiders trot out platitudes about how they don't intend to grief (which, notably in this case, did not appear for 24 hours after the raid! Like y'all forgot that trick...).

The last time I trotted out platitudes about how we didn't intend to attempt a refound of a region, we did not in fact attempt a refound (and all actual evidence at the time indicated we never came close to trying).

[Sorianora]

original proposal is down, I had shitty writing and rushed it, should have used forums, and unfortunately, I rushed using telegram stamps on it.


supported

You were never going to stop the Embassy closures, game mechanics were against you there. However, even half a day drafting here would have helped remove the more egregious howlers from your text.

And yes, you would have got that help. Despite my dislike for the nominated region I would have advised you on improvements.

Mm yeah, maybe I’ll try SC again sometime in the future.....

[Outer Sparta]

You were never going to stop the Embassy closures, game mechanics were against you there. However, even half a day drafting here would have helped remove the more egregious howlers from your text.

And yes, you would have got that help. Despite my dislike for the nominated region I would have advised you on improvements.

Mm yeah, maybe I’ll try SC again sometime in the future.....

Even though the regulars are quite harsh on undrafted proposals, there's a reason they are since there could be glaring errors or other issues that would have been caught if drafted on the forums. Don't get discouraged by this, if you want to get more involved in the SC, then people are happy to help.

[HumanSanity]

Lastly, this all presumes I trust you. I don't. Your incentive to come through here and claim you are not going to attempt a refound is massive. Frankly, there is zero reason to believe a word of it.

Seems I don't even have to dig up quotes from earlier. Somehow we are supposed to trust your word, but not everyone you disagree with?

I don't have incentives to lie in this thread.

As I've said, if I'm asked to do so by A Goblinoid Merchant, I'll kill the resolution. I also have every intent of writing a repeal once y'all are properly yeet.

You still have not produced a single shred of evidence that makes such a thing likely to occur here.

There's an incredibly thin influence base in the region, so ejecting native residents and changing the password after giving 24 hours for a drawdown order is not at all unimaginable.

Oh, really? So a raider left in the delegacy after the operation has concluded is the threat now?

Yes.

And the Security Council needs to solve that, because defenders can't be bothered to actually take the delegacy and detag the region, as was the case in LNA?

The liberation is necessary to ensure you don't use the influence garnered from your 66 WA pile, slowly draw down pile to a managable number for password influence cost purposes, change the password, eject A Goblinoid Merchant, and then pick any old day to do a refound.

raiders trot out platitudes about how they don't intend to grief (which, notably in this case, did not appear for 24 hours after the raid! Like y'all forgot that trick...).

The last time I trotted out platitudes about how we didn't intend to attempt a refound of a region, we did not in fact attempt a refound (and all actual evidence at the time indicated we never came close to trying).

Not going to claim we "saved the day" or whatever. Also not going to say having the liberation in the queue and on the floor isn't a good backup option.

[Flanderlion]

I voted for, people seem to be overlooking (sometimes deliberately) what the region is. Sure, not a lot of nations live there, but a lot use it as a way to socialise, connect between regions and as a hub of the small UCR world. People keep talking about how UCRs need help, the invasion of the Embassy is the opposite of helping UCRs.

This lib won't save the embassies, only retaking it into native hands before they close will. Defenders aren't saving it imo. But it will allow the region to be saved, and over time re-establish itself. This is a region misunderstood by GP, being bullied by GP and being failed by GP.

To the Embassy: Save your list of embassies so when it closes you can go through and rerequest them all.

[Lord Dominator]

The last time I trotted out platitudes about how we didn't intend to attempt a refound of a region, we did not in fact attempt a refound (and all actual evidence at the time indicated we never came close to trying).

Not going to claim we "saved the day" or whatever. Also not going to say having the liberation in the queue and on the floor isn't a good backup option.

I fail to see how this is a response to my lack of lying.

[Westinor]

The North Pacific Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends a vote Against the at-vote Security Council proposal, and our delegate has voted accordingly. For further information, please view our IFV dispatch here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1506159

[Flanderlion]

The North Pacific Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends a vote Against the at-vote Security Council proposal, and our delegate has voted accordingly. For further information, please view our IFV dispatch here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1506159

I think a better IFV would be 'Our allies are raiding it, so therefore we are against this Liberation'

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

The North Pacific Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends a vote Against the at-vote Security Council proposal, and our delegate has voted accordingly. For further information, please view our IFV dispatch here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1506159

I think a better IFV would be 'Our allies are raiding it, so therefore we are against this Liberation'

You're welcome to join TNP and our Ministry of World Assembly Affairs to take part in our drafting process.

[Westinor]

The North Pacific Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends a vote Against the at-vote Security Council proposal, and our delegate has voted accordingly. For further information, please view our IFV dispatch here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1506159

I think a better IFV would be 'Our allies are raiding it, so therefore we are against this Liberation'

Not really, but thank you for the suggestion! If you'd like to influence the North Pacific's stance and IFV dispatches, you can head on over to our forums and apply to be part of the Executive Staff.

[Refuge Isle]

I fail to see where the lie is. The fact of the matter is that LNA was destroyed despite Europeia and The North Pacific's involvement

You mean that the region was destroyed after Europeia and the North Pacific had withdrawn and the operation concluded? And, unless I am very much mistaken, weren't you yourself involved in the final password locking of the region, which is what actually killed the region? You seem to conveniently forget that part.

I do not conveniently forget anything. I have raided in the past, that is no secret. And I was a part of the passwording party from TBH, that is also no secret. In part, because of this operation and other events in that military, I left raiding and wrote an extended dispatch essay on my reasons for defecting. Based on that document's view count, I presume that too is no secret. Discrediting my recounting of factual events in that operation, simply because it's me that says it, is very strange to me. The attempt to mudsling is petty and ultimately inconsequential.

The region was destroyed after ERN and NPA departed, yes. I have established this many times. The region was, however, destroyed with influence that ERN and NPA generated, and with powers those groups helped grant.

To the best of my knowledge, when an organisation is asked to participate in an occupation, they respond "yes so long we do not destroy the region - that is against our laws". Ideally, this does not mean, "yes, but you can only destroy the region after we aren't looking at it anymore".

The fact is that those two militaries signed on with the understanding that the region would not be destroyed, and their pilers were used to that end anyway.

[Great Algerstonia]

I voted for, this raid should never have happened at all and I am upset about it

[Draganisia]

Out of all the regions that do deserve to be raided... This wasn't one of them.

[Baedan]

Out of all the regions that do deserve to be raided... This wasn't one of them.

Which ones are, if you don't mind me asking?

[Atheris]

Out of all the regions that do deserve to be raided... This wasn't one of them.

Which ones are, if you don't mind me asking?

None.

[Outer Sparta]

Out of all the regions that do deserve to be raided... This wasn't one of them.

Maybe you would agree to raid fascist regions? I mean, there are a good number of people who might detest raiding but wouldn't find if certain regions get caught.

[Galiantus III]

Out of all the regions that do deserve to be raided... This wasn't one of them.

Maybe you would agree to raid fascist regions? I mean, there are a good number of people who might detest raiding but wouldn't find if certain regions get caught.

In my opinion, raiding for the sake of raiding is kinda bland. What's most interesting is when raiding is motivated by some purpose, either an in-game agenda or real world ideology.

[President Drumpf]

I don't have incentives to lie in this thread.

According to you.

There's an incredibly thin influence base in the region, so ejecting native residents and changing the password after giving 24 hours for a drawdown order is not at all unimaginable.

That it is mechanically possible is something else than that it will happen. You still have not provided any reason that makes it likely we will do so.

Oh, really? So a raider left in the delegacy after the operation has concluded is the threat now?

Yes.

If that is the case, why don’t defenders deploy once the operation has concluded? Not even LNA kicked defenders into action, but if they are so concerned here then surely they can overcome a concluded operation?

The liberation is necessary to ensure you don't use the influence garnered from your 66 WA pile, slowly draw down pile to a managable number for password influence cost purposes, change the password, eject A Goblinoid Merchant, and then pick any old day to do a refound.

The pile is down to 60, for your information.

If we had any intent to do so the liberation would pass with flying colours and we’d have gained nothing, besides annoying Europeia. Why would we ever attempt any such thing?

I do not conveniently forget anything. I have raided in the past, that is no secret.

You didn’t bring it up when talking about LNA, forgive me if I got the wrong impression. It is worth noting nonetheless.

The attempt to mudsling is petty and ultimately inconsequential.

I do not think it at all unreasonable to point out that you seem somewhat hypocritical when you are criticising Europeia for its role in the operation.

The region was destroyed after ERN and NPA departed, yes. I have established this many times.

In this thread? Where? You acknowledged it after I pointed it out, and even then your wording on it was vague.

The region was, however, destroyed with influence that ERN and NPA generated, and with powers those groups helped grant.

Defenders are aware that destroying the region would have significant drawbacks for us. The cost of doing so simply outweighs any perceived benefits.

To the best of my knowledge, when an organisation is asked to participate in an occupation, they respond "yes so long we do not destroy the region - that is against our laws". Ideally, this does not mean, "yes, but you can only destroy the region after we aren't looking at it anymore".

This should be an ideal scenario for you, then.

[Refuge Isle]

I do not think it at all unreasonable to point out that you seem somewhat hypocritical when you are criticising Europeia for its role in the operation.

The point was brought up that region destruction would not be happening in The Embassy because of Euro's presence. My point was to address that their presence means nothing in this situation, because it has meant nothing in the past. There is certainly nothing wrong with me observing that previously ERN's anti-griefing positions are functionless if other components in the raid have other intentions and need only hold off leaving for a day or two. It is not hypocritical to observe a lack of law enforcement or diplomatic consequence simply because it was my job at the time to raid.

As a side note, the only thing people used The Embassy for was its connections to use the chat-like RMB. Burning those also burns the point of the region and sounds like destruction to me. In any event, the original point is moot, because it would appear that Euro has agreed with said side note and withdrawn from the occupation.

[Team Lennox]

I support this proposal guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gotta liberate mi allies y'all kno