[PASSED] Military Death Penalty Ban

[South Americanastan]

This is a good proposal, but it has one problem. The death penalty ban explicitly states there is an exception for the military, and this proposal focuses on banning the death penalty in the military, so it would be marked illegal for contradicting the original ban. So, unless you want to repeal the original (which, considering how close the original vote was, might have traction) and then propose a new ban that includes the military, there is no way the secretariat would mark this legal.

[Separatist Peoples]

This is a good proposal, but it has one problem. The death penalty ban explicitly states there is an exception for the military, and this proposal focuses on banning the death penalty in the military, so it would be marked illegal for contradicting the original ban. So, unless you want to repeal the original (which, considering how close the original vote was, might have traction) and then propose a new ban that includes the military, there is no way the secretariat would mark this legal.

OOC: Its legal. You're wrong.

[Imperium Anglorum]

This is a good proposal, but it has one problem. The death penalty ban explicitly states there is an exception for the military, and this proposal focuses on banning the death penalty in the military, so it would be marked illegal for contradicting the original ban.

This is wrong at two levels.

First, the statement 'The death penalty is abolished except for crimes under a military penal code committed during time of war' has no bearing on whether another piece of legislation could abolish the death penalty. If I told you 'No smoking in the living room' that does not mean you can smoke in the kitchen. 'No vehicles in the park' does not mean you can drive into Area 51.

Second, if you read Death Penalty Ban to the end you could have come across a clause saying as follows.

Member nations collectively may further restrict the use of or abolish the death penalty, section 1 notwithstanding.

It only makes up a third of the resolution.

[Jedinsto]

"Legal, sure, desirable, no."

[Separatist Peoples]

"Legal, sure, desirable, no."

"Frankly, ambassador, preventing nations from drafting their entire population to execute them at whim sounds incredibly desirable."

[Jedinsto]

"Legal, sure, desirable, no."

"Frankly, ambassador, preventing nations from drafting their entire population to execute them at whim sounds incredibly desirable."

"The death penalty is already banned outside of the military, I disagree that we should go any further."

[Separatist Peoples]

"Frankly, ambassador, preventing nations from drafting their entire population to execute them at whim sounds incredibly desirable."

"The death penalty is already banned outside of the military, I disagree that we should go any further."

"Right, ambassador. Which is why nations have cheerfully begun abusing conscription power to evade execution. Thus the need to ban the practice in the military. It's almost as though you support abusive policies."

[Jedinsto]

"The death penalty is already banned outside of the military, I disagree that we should go any further."

"Right, ambassador. Which is why nations have cheerfully begun abusing conscription power to evade execution. Thus the need to ban the practice in the military. It's almost as though you support abusive policies."

"Not at all, ambassador, I support at least heavily restricting the death penalty as much as the next guy. I don't know of any nation that conscripts their own people, accuses and convicts them of war crimes, and executes them, just for the hell of it. I'll take your word for it though, but I still don't believe this is the answer. Any nation that oppressive would just imprison and mistreat their people, and any prevention of that would also apply to executions, no?"

[Separatist Peoples]

"Right, ambassador. Which is why nations have cheerfully begun abusing conscription power to evade execution. Thus the need to ban the practice in the military. It's almost as though you support abusive policies."

"Not at all, ambassador, I support at least heavily restricting the death penalty as much as the next guy. I don't know of any nation that conscripts their own people, accuses and convicts them of war crimes, and executes them, just for the hell of it. I'll take your word for it though, but I still don't believe this is the answer. Any nation that oppressive would just imprison and mistreat their people, and any prevention of that would also apply to executions, no?"

"Given that the threat of death is one of the single strongest coercion methods, and given that states are free to evade the heavy regulations on that tool by abusing their conscription powers, no. They do not. They are free to subject their citizens to an inherently unjust punishment."

[Jedinsto]

"Not at all, ambassador, I support at least heavily restricting the death penalty as much as the next guy. I don't know of any nation that conscripts their own people, accuses and convicts them of war crimes, and executes them, just for the hell of it. I'll take your word for it though, but I still don't believe this is the answer. Any nation that oppressive would just imprison and mistreat their people, and any prevention of that would also apply to executions, no?"

"Given that the threat of death is one of the single strongest coercion methods, and given that states are free to evade the heavy regulations on that tool by abusing their conscription powers, no. They do not. They are free to subject their citizens to an inherently unjust punishment."

"I would prefer to attack the problem at its root, rather than the result of the problem. Again, the concept of conscripting your own people simply to execute them is not something I've been made familiar with. I will be voting against if this comes to vote, but I am not all that strongly opposed, the death penalty definitely is overused, and abused, unfortunately, but I would think the death penalty ban already covered that."

[Clarence Thomas]

Notokiwa: I am in favor of abolishing the death penalty, but Ambassador DuBois makes a point. Ambassador Bell, if anything you are making a case for abolishing conscription.

[Separatist Peoples]

Notokiwa: I am in favor of abolishing the death penalty, but Ambassador DuBois makes a point. Ambassador Bell, if anything you are making a case for abolishing conscription.

"Extant law on the death penalty has a loophole. The ambassador from Jedinsto argued this was too far. I explained how the loophole was abused and why this argument was flawed. Conscription is an essential part of that argument. Perhaps, ambassador, if you listened to the arguments you might have noted the context."

[Jedinsto]

"After rereading the arguments, I don't know how I glossed over the fact that a nation would be conscripting its criminals, who they wished to execute, not just random civilians. The ambassador from Seperatist Peoples should have made this point specifically. This loophole is large enough, and the death penalty too widely abused to allow it to continue any further. However much Jedinsto would like to execute mass murderers and war criminals, we are greater concerned with those losing their lives unjustly. We are now in support of this resolution."

[Separatist Peoples]

"After rereading the arguments, I don't know how I glossed over the fact that a nation would be conscripting its criminals, who they wished to execute, not just random civilians. The ambassador from Seperatist Peoples should have made this point specifically. This loophole is large enough, and the death penalty too widely abused to allow it to continue any further. However much Jedinsto would like to execute mass murderers and war criminals, we are greater concerned with those losing their lives unjustly. We are now in support of this resolution."

"I am not sure how that was not obvious from context, as the alternative interpretation was genuinely nonsensical. In the future, I will endeavor to overexplain."

[Jedinsto]

"After rereading the arguments, I don't know how I glossed over the fact that a nation would be conscripting its criminals, who they wished to execute, not just random civilians. The ambassador from Seperatist Peoples should have made this point specifically. This loophole is large enough, and the death penalty too widely abused to allow it to continue any further. However much Jedinsto would like to execute mass murderers and war criminals, we are greater concerned with those losing their lives unjustly. We are now in support of this resolution."

"I am not sure how that was not obvious from context, as the alternative interpretation was genuinely nonsensical. In the future, I will endeavor to overexplain."

OOC: Yeah, I should have picked up on it, whether you explicitly stated it or not, but missing stuff like that is something I thrive at.

[Separatist Peoples]

"I am not sure how that was not obvious from context, as the alternative interpretation was genuinely nonsensical. In the future, I will endeavor to overexplain."

OOC: Yeah, I should have picked up on it, whether you explicitly stated it or not, but missing stuff like that is something I thrive at.

Ooc: my character is a professional with high standards. I am a player who does this for funsies. You good.

[Araraukar]

"And exactly how are you going to prevent nations from, firstly, offering military service as an alternative to long-term prisonment when the nation is pressed for having more people as cannonfodder, and secondly, for any would-be inmate who takes up the offer from being ordered, as soldiers, on the most dangerous jobs or missions? You would be hard-pressed to prove any of that being done deliberately, unless you were able to read people's minds, yet that would be an obvious way for a nation, in wartime, to get rid of their undesirables. Even in peacetime training accidents do happen. Military service is potentially fatal, after all."

OOC: Araraukar doesn't have a military so I've just followed the debate, but figured the pacifist viewpoint of seeing military service in wartime as a semi-suspended death penalty probably ought to be spelled out...

[Untecna]

"Against. The General Assembly has already gone far enough with this sort of stuff, and we wish it not to continue."

OOC: Opposed.

[Brilliantly]

It's my first time drafting a resolution, so I'm open to suggestions on this.

Recognizing the utility of GA#535 "Death Penalty Ban" in abolishing its application under most circumstances,

Concerned that the remaining applications of the death penalty are injurious and inhumane to people who are sentenced to death for crimes they may not have even committed,

Convinced that the death penalty is a draconian judicial punishment often used in the name of revenge and wrongfully rationalized as justice,

Appalled that exceptions can be made in the application of the death penalty,

Confident that alternative sentencing exists to produce fair and effective justice for victims of heinous crimes,

Determined to discontinue all remaining uses of the death penalty,

The World Assembly hereby,

1. Abolishes the death penalty for all crimes under the purview of military law;
2. Prohibits states from deporting persons to states that may seek the application of the death penalty against them;
3. Provides an exception for receiving states that enter into a lawful, written contract that assures the extraditing state that the persons in question shall not receive the death penalty.

I opposed. Because of many reasons this proposal has gone beyond the important boundaries and stepped in my military affairs. The choice of death penalty is enforced by my own nations building and officers not the WA.

[Jedinsto]

It's my first time drafting a resolution, so I'm open to suggestions on this.

I opposed. Because of many reasons this proposal has gone beyond the important boundaries and stepped in my military affairs. The choice of death penalty is enforced by my own nations building and officers not the WA.

Incorrect, the death penalty is already banned under non-military crimes

[Brilliantly]

Sorry, I new to NS so I don’t understand this

[Jedinsto]

Sorry, I new to NS so I don’t understand this

It's alright, go take a look at the "help" page. They've got an FAQ, rules, and everything in between

[Clarence Thomas]

"Extant law on the death penalty has a loophole. The ambassador from Jedinsto argued this was too far. I explained how the loophole was abused and why this argument was flawed. Conscription is an essential part of that argument. Perhaps, ambassador, if you listened to the arguments you might have noted the context."

Notokiwa: (mildly dismayed) Of course I noticed the context, Ambassador Bell. But like the Jedinsto delegate I thought the context was "the nation arbitrarily conscripts its people en masse just to get to the death penalty loophole." In that scenario, abolishing conscription sounds much more pressing.

Notokiwa: (sincere) I'll apologize for misunderstanding in the exact same way our colleague from Jedinsto had. (musing) I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath that you might extend the same courtesy for your genteel acrimony.

"And exactly how are you going to prevent nations from, firstly, offering military service as an alternative to long-term prisonment when the nation is pressed for having more people as cannonfodder, and secondly, for any would-be inmate who takes up the offer from being ordered, as soldiers, on the most dangerous jobs or missions? You would be hard-pressed to prove any of that being done deliberately, unless you were able to read people's minds, yet that would be an obvious way for a nation, in wartime, to get rid of their undesirables. Even in peacetime training accidents do happen. Military service is potentially fatal, after all."

Notokiwa: (curious) An interesting scenario. I guess if we wanted to, the Assembly could prevent that with other legislation - a ban on service-for-sentence, or something. I suppose that'd be the purview of other legislation.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Extant law on the death penalty has a loophole. The ambassador from Jedinsto argued this was too far. I explained how the loophole was abused and why this argument was flawed. Conscription is an essential part of that argument. Perhaps, ambassador, if you listened to the arguments you might have noted the context."

Notokiwa: (mildly dismayed) Of course I noticed the context, Ambassador Bell. But like the Jedinsto delegate I thought the context was "the nation arbitrarily conscripts its people en masse just to get to the death penalty loophole." In that scenario, abolishing conscription sounds much more pressing.

Notokiwa: (sincere) I'll apologize for misunderstanding in the exact same way our colleague from Jedinsto had. (musing) I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath that you might extend the same courtesy for your genteel acrimony.

Bell quirks an eyebrow curiously. "I'm not sure for what I would apologize, ambassador. Is there a cultural disconnect that I have missed? What I see are all parties engaged in zealous advocacy for their respective positions. From my perspective, this discussion was a resounding success."

[Qvait]

"Just a minor fix I'd like to suggest, Ambassador. Start off Article 3 with 'In regards to Article 2', just to make things a bit more clear. Otherwise, this draft continues to enjoy my nation's full support, and we'd like to see this submitted soon."

OOC: Thanks for your suggestion! Now that I've found more time on my hands, I hope to get this proposal submitted in the near future. With that being said, though, I am still open to further suggestions and feedback before submission.