[PASSED] Military Death Penalty Ban

[Separatist Peoples]

"Ah, yes, because the justice system is the embodiment of flawless perfection and impossible fallibility. It is easy to say "only if we are really sure", but how can you be really sure? There is no way to be infallibly certain whether someone is innocent or not. History has given us many cases of that."

With all due respect if you got the death penalty you did something really horrible to get it. There is no mistake when you get it.

"Yes, jurors are never wrong and judges are never prejudiced! This is demonstrably untrue."

[Separatist Peoples]

Wrong, it is widely abused IRL and in NS. Even with the death penalty ban, nations can still conscript their criminals to execute them. What you said is just naive and incorrect.

Where is evidence of anyone in NS let alone IRL doing what you just described? You’re calling me naive but you don’t even give me evidence. You know how stupid that sounds? Why would somebody conscript a criminal then execute them? That’s a waste of resources and soldiers.

Ooc: it's literally what people said they'd do in response to the initial death penalty ban.

[Untecna]

Where is evidence of anyone in NS let alone IRL doing what you just described? You’re calling me naive but you don’t even give me evidence. You know how stupid that sounds? Why would somebody conscript a criminal then execute them? That’s a waste of resources and soldiers.

Ooc: it's literally what people said they'd do in response to the initial death penalty ban.

That ban was unnecessary anyways.

[Kingdom of Communists]

Ooc: it's literally what people said they'd do in response to the initial death penalty ban.

That ban was unnecessary anyways.

Correct......

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: it's literally what people said they'd do in response to the initial death penalty ban.

That ban was unnecessary anyways.

Ooc: not really, given the shocking abuse inherent in the death penalty that people in favor of it like to wave away with some strange notion of national rights.

[Daarwyrth]

"Ah, yes, because the justice system is the embodiment of flawless perfection and impossible fallibility. It is easy to say "only if we are really sure", but how can you be really sure? There is no way to be infallibly certain whether someone is innocent or not. History has given us many cases of that."

With all due respect if you got the death penalty you did something really horrible to get it. There is no mistake when you get it.

"Ask those who were innocently sentenced to death whether they agree with you. Educate yourself on those cases first, before you state something as ignorant as you did just now, Ambassador."

[Untecna]

That ban was unnecessary anyways.

Ooc: not really, given the shocking abuse inherent in the death penalty that people in favor of it like to wave away with some strange notion of national rights.

But that forgets that areas where the criminal system barely, and by very low amounts, incarcerates innocents, as well as better conditions, among other things, like low crime rates, that make the death penalty a barely used punishment, hence why in the scope of NS, where you can use factbooks and improve your stats to say that crime is in check and that the criminal system is extremely fair, such a resolution is useless.

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: not really, given the shocking abuse inherent in the death penalty that people in favor of it like to wave away with some strange notion of national rights.

But that forgets that areas where the criminal system barely, and by very low amounts, incarcerates innocents, as well as better conditions, among other things, like low crime rates, that make the death penalty a barely used punishment, hence why in the scope of NS, where you can use factbooks and improve your stats to say that crime is in check and that the criminal system is extremely fair, such a resolution is useless.

Ooc: No system is without prejudice or error. Declaring otherwise doesn't make it so. You can release an innocent man. You can't ressurect him.

[Untecna]

But that forgets that areas where the criminal system barely, and by very low amounts, incarcerates innocents, as well as better conditions, among other things, like low crime rates, that make the death penalty a barely used punishment, hence why in the scope of NS, where you can use factbooks and improve your stats to say that crime is in check and that the criminal system is extremely fair, such a resolution is useless.

Ooc: No system is without prejudice or error. Declaring otherwise doesn't make it so. You can release an innocent man. You can't ressurect him.

My argument still stands. Deny it all you want, it's true.

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: No system is without prejudice or error. Declaring otherwise doesn't make it so. You can release an innocent man. You can't ressurect him.

My argument still stands. Deny it all you want, it's true.

Ooc: it really isn't. A system that provides no remedy for wrongdoing is inherently unjust. It is the foundation of common law systems the world over. I'm not sure where you got the alternative position, but it makes absolutely no sense.

[Ionida]

My argument still stands. Deny it all you want, it's true.

Ooc: it really isn't. A system that provides no remedy for wrongdoing is inherently unjust. It is the foundation of common law systems the world over. I'm not sure where you got the alternative position, but it makes absolutely no sense.

'Ambassador, we would like to interject that our courts have the most lenient of sentences and that the military death penality is only given in the most exceptional of cases, and only when the Supreme Criminal Court has found the defendant guilty of war crimes or genocide (or a similar crime). There are multiple opportunities for clemency, including letting regional courts decide.
Currently, there have been no executed criminals who have been later found not guilty post-mortem.
Surely such a stringent procedure compensates for risk, Ambassador?'

[Untecna]

My argument still stands. Deny it all you want, it's true.

Ooc: it really isn't. A system that provides no remedy for wrongdoing is inherently unjust. It is the foundation of common law systems the world over. I'm not sure where you got the alternative position, but it makes absolutely no sense.

Who said none of us had rehabilitation either? With a snap of a finger (and a small typing session) we can change our systems in our nations, again, making the ban on the death penalty ridiculous, and useless.

Another way it's useless is the fact that it doesn't change the policy, therefore it still legally exists.

What surprises me is the fact that everyone that voted for this resolution thought that ones who didn't regularly killed people that were innocent because they were accused. Again, NS, we can say that it's not what happens, and replace it with one of the best systems, it's canon, no issues, no resolution needed.

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: it really isn't. A system that provides no remedy for wrongdoing is inherently unjust. It is the foundation of common law systems the world over. I'm not sure where you got the alternative position, but it makes absolutely no sense.

Who said none of us had rehabilitation either? With a snap of a finger (and a small typing session) we can change our systems in our nations, again, making the ban on the death penalty ridiculous, and useless.

Another way it's useless is the fact that it doesn't change the policy, therefore it still legally exists.

What surprises me is the fact that everyone that voted for this resolution thought that ones who didn't regularly killed people that were innocent because they were accused. Again, NS, we can say that it's not what happens, and replace it with one of the best systems, it's canon, no issues, no resolution needed.

Ooc: if you're going the godmodding route, I'm not sure why anybody should listen to your input. If you think the Policies are relevant to GA resolutions, you really are brand new to the GA.

[Untecna]

Who said none of us had rehabilitation either? With a snap of a finger (and a small typing session) we can change our systems in our nations, again, making the ban on the death penalty ridiculous, and useless.

Another way it's useless is the fact that it doesn't change the policy, therefore it still legally exists.

What surprises me is the fact that everyone that voted for this resolution thought that ones who didn't regularly killed people that were innocent because they were accused. Again, NS, we can say that it's not what happens, and replace it with one of the best systems, it's canon, no issues, no resolution needed.

Ooc: if you're going the godmodding route, I'm not sure why anybody should listen to your input. If you think the Policies are relevant to GA resolutions, you really are brand new to the GA.

I stated it as an issue to the ban itself, if you really want a ban, remove the policy forcefully and make sure they can't just bring it back by issue or factbook.

Just a little tidbit

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: it really isn't. A system that provides no remedy for wrongdoing is inherently unjust. It is the foundation of common law systems the world over. I'm not sure where you got the alternative position, but it makes absolutely no sense.

'Ambassador, we would like to interject that our courts have the most lenient of sentences and that the military death penality is only given in the most exceptional of cases, and only when the Supreme Criminal Court has found the defendant guilty of war crimes or genocide (or a similar crime). There are multiple opportunities for clemency, including letting regional courts decide.
Currently, there have been no executed criminals who have been later found not guilty post-mortem.
Surely such a stringent procedure compensates for risk, Ambassador?'

Ooc: Ooc tags mean Out Of Character. This isn't an in character comment and doesn't exist in the roleplay. That said, just because you didn't find any exonerating evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The US certainly believed their system infallible for years before DNA evidence overturned more convictions than I can count. Many from executed prisoners. This is an unconvincing claim to make even In Character.

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: if you're going the godmodding route, I'm not sure why anybody should listen to your input. If you think the Policies are relevant to GA resolutions, you really are brand new to the GA.

I stated it as an issue to the ban itself, if you really want a ban, remove the policy forcefully and make sure they can't just bring it back by issue or factbook.

Just a little tidbit

OOC: yup. You have no idea how the GA works.

[Untecna]

I stated it as an issue to the ban itself, if you really want a ban, remove the policy forcefully and make sure they can't just bring it back by issue or factbook.

Just a little tidbit

OOC: yup. You have no idea how the GA works.

No, no, I do. Just adding to my point that it's useless.

And cracking a bit of a joke.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: yup. You have no idea how the GA works.

No, no, I do. Just adding to my point that it's useless.

And cracking a bit of a joke.

Ooc: you don't. That's not how GA roleplay works. That or you are being deliberately misleading to convince the hit and run posters that you know what's going on. Neither is good. Either way I'm not interested in engaging disingenuous arguments any further.

[Untecna]

No, no, I do. Just adding to my point that it's useless.

And cracking a bit of a joke.

Ooc: you don't. That's not how GA roleplay works. That or you are being deliberately misleading to convince the hit and run posters that you know what's going on. Neither is good. Either way I'm not interested in engaging disingenuous arguments any further.

GA roleplay doesn't matter on the nation scale, now does it? You can't FORCE us to do anything. Not even with so-called "sanctions" that we won't call canon.

Find a better way to enforce this stuff and tell me when you've done it.

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: you don't. That's not how GA roleplay works. That or you are being deliberately misleading to convince the hit and run posters that you know what's going on. Neither is good. Either way I'm not interested in engaging disingenuous arguments any further.

GA roleplay doesn't matter on the nation scale, now does it? You can't FORCE us to do anything. Not even with so-called "sanctions" that we won't call canon.

Find a better way to enforce this stuff and tell me when you've done it.

Ooc: it's the point of the forum. It's the point of the GA portion of the game. It has been for 15 years. You would know this if you bothered learning about the GA.

[Untecna]

GA roleplay doesn't matter on the nation scale, now does it? You can't FORCE us to do anything. Not even with so-called "sanctions" that we won't call canon.

Find a better way to enforce this stuff and tell me when you've done it.

Ooc: it's the point of the forum. It's the point of the GA portion of the game. It has been for 15 years. You would know this if you bothered learning about the GA.

I thought you wanted to stop this "disingenuous argument".

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: it's the point of the forum. It's the point of the GA portion of the game. It has been for 15 years. You would know this if you bothered learning about the GA.

I thought you wanted to stop this "disingenuous argument".

Ooc: I'd love to, but since new players may make the mistake of believing what you post, I'm here correcting it. Is there anything relevant to the proposal on your mind, or have we exhausted this back and forth where you lie and I correct you?

[Scalizagasti]

The United Regions Alliance recommends that nations vote against this resolution. During internal voting, 3 regions voted in favour of this resolution, 12 regions voted against, and 1 region abstained.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1524379

[American Pere Housh]

"Anybody that supports this proposal is completely and absolutely fucking insane."

[Farnhamia]

"Anybody that supports this proposal is completely and absolutely fucking insane."

*looms ominously* I'm sure you meant this as in-character but it would be clearer if you indicated who in your nation is saying this.