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[PASSED] Repeal "Commend the Western Isles"

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Balnik
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Postby Balnik » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:15 pm

Very well said Aiz, couldn't have done better myself. Even though our region is isolationist, a great part of that is the fact we still produce great and widespread resources, especially among RP regions which I see consistently. Not Ponderosa level but still impressive. I do think you missed Atnaias economic guide but still.
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:36 pm

Pls don't argue about whether TWI is or isn't commendable. That has nothing to do with this resolution, and I'd like to not have this proposal associated with that debate.

Obviously it's not a problem yet, but some players have written posts that indicate a lot of investment in the debate.

Happy holidays (:.
Last edited by Bormiar on Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Honeydewistania
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Postby Honeydewistania » Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:41 pm

Bormiar wrote:Pls don't argue about whether TWI is or isn't commendable. That has nothing to do with this resolution, and I'd like to not have this proposal associated with that debate.

:eyebrow:
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Corindia
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Postby Corindia » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:11 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:
Bormiar wrote:Pls don't argue about whether TWI is or isn't commendable. That has nothing to do with this resolution, and I'd like to not have this proposal associated with that debate.

:eyebrow:

I agree, I think it's a little obtuse to act like that has nothing to do with it when things like the below quotes are being tossed around and are apparently on topic.
Wayneactia wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:I'd prefer to see a replacement ready before supporting such a repeal.

Or we could, you know....... not? Since you seem to be such a huge fan, please elaborate exactly what TWI has done to make the community a better place? Vancouvia passed one whole resolution, which was very quickly repealed. They are a little isolationist region and nothing more. Their population has been dropping for quite some time now. In fact Vancouvia's endorsement count is a third of what it used to be. That it? That's really all it takes these days to get a commendation?

Greater Cesnica wrote:Not true, I wanted TWI to get a commendation.

Bullshit. You were seeking attention. Nothing less, nothing more.

Comfed wrote:
Balnik wrote:I am in agreement with a replacement. I do believe that the current commendation does not represent the aspects of the region that have influenced the site properly.

TWI has influenced the site? How have they done so, besides yelling that GP is corrupted?

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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:13 pm

Corindia wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote: :eyebrow:

I agree, I think it's a little obtuse to act like that has nothing to do with it when things like the below quotes are being tossed around and are apparently on topic.
Wayneactia wrote:Or we could, you know....... not? Since you seem to be such a huge fan, please elaborate exactly what TWI has done to make the community a better place? Vancouvia passed one whole resolution, which was very quickly repealed. They are a little isolationist region and nothing more. Their population has been dropping for quite some time now. In fact Vancouvia's endorsement count is a third of what it used to be. That it? That's really all it takes these days to get a commendation?


Bullshit. You were seeking attention. Nothing less, nothing more.

Comfed wrote:TWI has influenced the site? How have they done so, besides yelling that GP is corrupted?


That’s exactly the debate I’m referring to, Corindia.

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Corindia
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Postby Corindia » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:19 pm

Bormiar wrote:
Corindia wrote:I agree, I think it's a little obtuse to act like that has nothing to do with it when things like the below quotes are being tossed around and are apparently on topic.



That’s exactly the debate I’m referring to, Corindia.

I see what you mean but this would have been a better look a day ago when they were posted, not following the rebuttal to them.

Edit: now that both sides have chimed in I'm fine with that being sufficient, I just think it's worth noting that when posts saying the region didn't deserve commendation went unchallenged, the repeal could have looked to an outside observer to have been related
Last edited by Corindia on Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:23 pm

Corindia wrote:not following the rebuttal to them.

Well the rebuttal was what turned it into a debate :P.

Anyways, discussing the nature of the debate is even less on-topic than the debate itself. Basically, I just wanted to say that this proposal is not about whether TWI is or isn't worthy of commendation. That's just something I need hammered down.

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Aizcona
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Postby Aizcona » Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:46 pm

Bormiar wrote:
Corindia wrote:not following the rebuttal to them.

Well the rebuttal was what turned it into a debate :P.

Anyways, discussing the nature of the debate is even less on-topic than the debate itself. Basically, I just wanted to say that this proposal is not about whether TWI is or isn't worthy of commendation. That's just something I need hammered down.

Corindia is right though. You were fine with it prior to my rebuttle. Nonetheless, I’ll leave it at that and let you guys get back to your thing
Last edited by Aizcona on Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:32 am

Bormiar wrote:Pls don't argue about whether TWI is or isn't commendable. That has nothing to do with this resolution, and I'd like to not have this proposal associated with that debate.

Can you clue us in, as to your line of reasoning here? I would think whether TWI is commendable or not would be at the very heart of a resolution seeking to REPEAL their commendation.

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:11 am

Wayneactia wrote:Bullshit. You were seeking attention. Nothing less, nothing more.

And you can have that false narrative play out in your head all you like, but that's still not the case. You can call me a liar, an attention-seeker, an idiot, a bad writer, call bullshit, whatever.
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Bad Badger
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Postby Big Bad Badger » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:01 pm

The original commendation is gratuitous at best. This region is far from commendable. I am for the repeal quickly and or any quality.
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Astrobolt
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Postby Astrobolt » Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:59 pm

I'm opposed to this repeal without a replacement.
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Aizcona
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Postby Aizcona » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:24 pm

Big Bad Badger wrote:The original commendation is gratuitous at best. This region is far from commendable. I am for the repeal quickly and or any quality.

That’s a strong opinion
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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:16 am

I find it extremely confusing as to how it is irrelevant as to whether TWI is commendable or not given that this is a repeal without an associated replacement... :eyebrow: I'm fine that there is no replacement as I'm currently unconvinced as to the Commendability of TWI and the repeal's text does not make the assertion that they are commendable or that there should be a replacement.

As far as early submission goes, I don't find it inherently problematic when a resolution is submitted little time after being drafted. It just carries the risk that in the event that a significant flaw in the resolution is found, it is harder to an author to defend and say "you could have brought this up during drafting". I'm not particularly concerned in this case since the resolution seems fairly well-written even if I dislike the formatting, of course, in the event of further information being pointed out, I reserve the right to change my mind. :P

Bormiar wrote:Unimpressed by the drafting of SC#336 “Commend the Western Isles”, whose author attempted to rush the proposal to the floor of the Security Council, went radio silent whenever a nation provided constructive criticism, ignored or gave curt, unsubstantive responses to virtually every genuine question from voters, and failed to change the proposal very much even in an absurd twelve drafts,

This seems a bit harsh to me. I do acknowledge and appreciate you toning it down as previously raised in the thread. However, I still think it's unduly severe.
Aizcona wrote:
Comfed wrote:TWI has influenced the site? How have they done so, besides yelling that GP is corrupted?

It's funny that us messing around 3 years ago still gets to you.

Nonetheless as for how has TWI influenced the site? Well that's a bit hard to quantify isn't it in comparison to what you guys normally do? Most WA resolutions it seems have to deal with the interconnectivity of the WA and R/D gameplay, although the R/D stuff seems to be more in the past with changes to the site. Or maybe I'm just not noticing it so much anymore. Either way RP to me feels underrepresented in terms of what it means to NS. In my mind RP is the best part of NS and probably the best thing to come out of it, following in the footsteps of the writer who created this site. And when I say RP I mean neither this WA stuff nor the Portal to the Multiverse stuff.

What do you have against P2TM RPing? AFAIK, there's only been one resolution on it compared to a whole number of resolutions on other types of RPing. It's a bit ridiculous that you come in here and say that RP is underacknowledged (in which case I would encourage you to address it by writing resolutions!) but say "No, not that type of RP should be acknowledged, my type of RP is what needs to be recognized more". The SC should be for all communities which contribute to building the game and the various communities that reside in it. If you misbelieve there is misrepresentation, well, I'd say fix you should work to fix it!
Plus in my mind R/D is probably the worst part of this site and the fact that that stuff is what alot of the SC resolutions have been about is kind of telling what influence means to the majority of you, especially in TNP I would imagine.
You'd be surprised at how many TNPers and SCers dislike R/D and agree that it's the worse part of the site (excluding fascists ofc). :P

The reason that you see more R/D resolutions is that the type of individual which writes resolutions tends to come from the gameplaying part of NS (governments, etc.) and are more familiar with those involved in R/D.

Getting back to TWI's influence, we have produced some of the best RP and nationbuilding on this site. We've curated an expanse of knowledge on how to do it well from military, economic, cultural, environmental, and more perspectives. Our Art and our dispatch styles have been used by many people which the best way to see that is whenever one of our members would see their dispatch be posted on another Regions WFE as a reference. In addition to this we have done this from a solely isolationalist perspective, building from the ground up. Creating a very well functioning regional government that helps its regional members even in its third addition. We've been very high on members although recently we've stabilized to a more reasonable number than back when we had 800 nations.

At the end of the day we've had a rich history as a region. Our contributions to this site is all onsite, we haven't done our RP in other places like other regions and we have a clean RMB taking good use of the forums with our [TWI Only] tags that can often be seen.

For me I don't really care too much how TWI gets a commendation, I'm just happy that it has received it as I thoroughly believe it does deserve it. And I believe that its nice that the WA does recognize that RP regions contribute to the shared history of this site that is quite nice and interesting.

I don't much know how to quantify that for a SC thing though as honestly this mix of IC and OOC confuses me. Whatever you guys go with is what happens but the fact that a commendation did pass makes me happy.

Here's some factbooks at least to see what I'm talking about,
Tutorial Factbook: Nationbuilding
Tutorial Dispatch: Government and Politics Part 2
So You Want To Design Your Economy?
Guide to Nuclear Weapons and Refinement
Making Vehicle Art, The Corindi Way
Our Welcome dispatch
Our map which is the highest upvoted one on NS, Top 20 dispatch
Our third and current Constitution which has enabled an extremely stable region

These are just some overarching factbooks but you can find high quality factbooks among most of our members.

Along with that you can find multiple of our members, notably Corindia, Miklania, and Alteran Republics prowling around art and military threads.
This is all good information which should have been worked to being incorporated into the resolution and could be incorporated into a replacement (now, with support demonstrating that these resources are being used, etc.).
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:02 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
Bormiar wrote:Pls don't argue about whether TWI is or isn't commendable. That has nothing to do with this resolution, and I'd like to not have this proposal associated with that debate.

Can you clue us in, as to your line of reasoning here? I would think whether TWI is commendable or not would be at the very heart of a resolution seeking to REPEAL their commendation.

Praeceps wrote:I find it extremely confusing as to how it is irrelevant as to whether TWI is commendable or not given that this is a repeal without an associated replacement... :eyebrow: I'm fine that there is no replacement as I'm currently unconvinced as to the Commendability of TWI and the repeal's text does not make the assertion that they are commendable or that there should be a replacement.


If you don't believe TWI is commendable, you'd vote for this repeal. If you do believe TWI is commendable, that doesn't mean you won't vote for this, because this repeal addresses the quality of the commendation, rather than the commendability of the nominee.

This isn't a difficult distinction to grasp and therefore doesn't take much debate, so we may have to agree to disagree. Just note that we've thus far avoided most useless, condescending bickering on whether TWI is or isn't commendable, and I'd like to keep things that way.

Praeceps wrote:I'm not particularly concerned in this case since the resolution seems fairly well-written even if I dislike the formatting, of course, in the event of further information being pointed out, I reserve the right to change my mind. :P

You... don't like the formatting? I don't understand.

Praeceps wrote:
Bormiar wrote:Unimpressed by the drafting of SC#336 “Commend the Western Isles”, whose author attempted to rush the proposal to the floor of the Security Council, went radio silent whenever a nation provided constructive criticism, ignored or gave curt, unsubstantive responses to virtually every genuine question from voters, and failed to change the proposal very much even in an absurd twelve drafts,

This seems a bit harsh to me. I do acknowledge and appreciate you toning it down as previously raised in the thread. However, I still think it's unduly severe.


Well, it is a punch, and I can't risk the resolution not fully encapsulating the drafting issues, but I'll see what I can do.




To those who would rather see a replacement first, I contacted someone who I thought was a fervent supporter of the commendation and offered to help TWI on getting a replacement (i.e. hearing from them what they want in their commendation). They told me that TWIers didn't really care about being commended. It seems they weren't even consulted about commendation in the first place. With that in mind, I really don't see how a replacement is necessary at the moment.
Last edited by Bormiar on Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:07 am

I did consult Vancouvia beforehand. I would have assumed that they would have taken the initiative to inform their region of my commendation attempt.

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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:09 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:I did consult Vancouvia beforehand.

The first in a long line of mistakes.

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Corindia
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Postby Corindia » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:55 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:I did consult Vancouvia beforehand.

The first in a long line of mistakes.

Do you have some specific grievance you're holding onto in regards to the region? You've been unusually hostile in this thread.

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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:04 am

Corindia wrote:You've been unusually hostile in this thread.

That's not unusual.

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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:43 am

Corindia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:The first in a long line of mistakes.

You've been unusually hostile in this thread.

Not really.

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:15 am

Wayneactia wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:I did consult Vancouvia beforehand.

The first in a long line of mistakes.

Consulting the founder/WA Delegate of a region you're trying to commend is a mistake now?
Sedgistan wrote:
Corindia wrote:You've been unusually hostile in this thread.

That's not unusual.

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Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:58 pm

Bormiar wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Can you clue us in, as to your line of reasoning here? I would think whether TWI is commendable or not would be at the very heart of a resolution seeking to REPEAL their commendation.

Praeceps wrote:I find it extremely confusing as to how it is irrelevant as to whether TWI is commendable or not given that this is a repeal without an associated replacement... :eyebrow: I'm fine that there is no replacement as I'm currently unconvinced as to the Commendability of TWI and the repeal's text does not make the assertion that they are commendable or that there should be a replacement.


If you don't believe TWI is commendable, you'd vote for this repeal. If you do believe TWI is commendable, that doesn't mean you won't vote for this, because this repeal addresses the quality of the commendation, rather than the commendability of the nominee.

This isn't a difficult distinction to grasp and therefore doesn't take much debate, so we may have to agree to disagree. Just note that we've thus far avoided most useless, condescending bickering on whether TWI is or isn't commendable, and I'd like to keep things that way.

I have already stated that I'm fine with the repeal. It is possible however for someone to think that TWI is commendable and not vote for without a replacement, you are taking the position that there is not evidence that TWI is commendable. I don't see why people can't disagree with us and say that it is commendable and as such the commendation shouldn't be repealed without one. It's unforunate that you're unable to distinguish alternative positions outside of those you set.


Praeceps wrote:This seems a bit harsh to me. I do acknowledge and appreciate you toning it down as previously raised in the thread. However, I still think it's unduly severe.


Well, it is a punch, and I can't risk the resolution not fully encapsulating the drafting issues, but I'll see what I can do.
As someone who repeatedly offered feedback to the author, I got the impression that they genuinely didn't understand the criticisms. I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:23 pm

Bormiar wrote: If you don't believe TWI is commendable, you'd vote for this repeal. If you do believe TWI is commendable, that doesn't mean you won't vote for this, because this repeal addresses the quality of the commendation, rather than the commendability of the nominee.


I mean I am for this repeal. I don't believe given the SC's stance on who is "commendable" and who isn't, that TWI doesn't meets those standards. I don't think a lot of people who have been commended do.

As an aside though I do take issue with the second part of your argument though, Bormiar. I hate the "quality of the commendation" argument. The SC is one of the only organizations, irl or online, I know of that takes away awards from regions and nations because the awards themselves aren't "pretty" enough. What kind of bizarre culture have we developed here? I think the first commend repeal base on the merit of the writing and not the receiver was a major mistake, one that we need to frankly change course on now.

I think our writers should be riskier and more flavorful/personal as we had talk about previously, but like seriously separating the fact that a nation or region is getting punished for the mistakes of the writer, is weird right? I mean surely we all know OOC that Commends mean more that just the bull hockey literal resolutions, why can't we all just agree to silently acknowledge that? I feel like we used to, but maybe I've over idealized the SC's past.
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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:31 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:—snipped out part—
As an aside though I do take issue with the second part of your argument though, Bormiar. I hate the "quality of the commendation" argument. The SC is one of the only organizations, irl or online, I know of that takes away awards from regions and nations because the awards themselves aren't "pretty" enough. What kind of bizarre culture have we developed here? I think the first commend repeal base on the merit of the writing and not the receiver was a major mistake, one that we need to frankly change course on now.

The SC is about writing quality resolutions. Generally when the bad ones get repealed they are replaced with something better. If I write a commend for, say, Amerion and it doesn’t talk about his achievements in defending, Lazarus or TSP then what kind of an award is it? The SC has always been about good writing and to suggest we get rid of that is ridiculous.
I think our writers should be riskier and more flavorful/personal as we had talk about previously, but like seriously separating the fact that a nation or region is getting punished for the mistakes of the writer, is weird right? I mean surely we all know OOC that Commends mean more that just the bull hockey literal resolutions, why can't we all just agree to silently acknowledge that? I feel like we used to, but maybe I've over idealized the SC's past.

For one thing, OOC stuff stays OOC, and does not belong in the Security Council. Have one’s C/C repealed and then replaced isn’t a punishment, it is merely making one’s C/C better.
What do you mean by more flavourful/personal anyways?
Last edited by Comfed on Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:14 am

Comfed wrote:The SC is about writing quality resolutions. Generally when the bad ones get repealed they are replaced with something better. If I write a commend for, say, Amerion and it doesn’t talk about his achievements in defending, Lazarus or TSP then what kind of an award is it? The SC has always been about good writing and to suggest we get rid of that is ridiculous.


Right, the SC's writing community is about writing quality resolutions. Not the actual SC body, most people couldn't give a darn that's why stuff like this commend gets passed in the first place. SC writers are few and far between, good writers even truer. It's a pretty darn exclusionary bunch yet one that gets to pass judgment on every other aspect of the game, whether that part of the game wants it to or not. Sometimes it's a good thing like when we all join together to get rid of Fascist strongholds, but when it comes to handing out awards it kind of shit, and pretending like it isn't mean you've just been lucky enough to not be on the shit side of it. Again most organizations don't hand awards and take them back willy nilly because the award had a dent in it.

I mean genuinely should we repeal St.Abby's liberate because it's not well written? No.
Should we repeal XKI's commend because it old and isn't up to modern snuff, no.
Should we go back and repeal every single one that before the "legal" check were put into place referenced NS or outside sources, No.

Let the people have their awards gosh dang it. XD

People keep saying it's just part of the game and that's my bloody point, a game where we make the rules and we've ruled that we can smash your sand castle if it ain't pretty enough. We can choose to be more lenient and let other folks feel awarded, instead of tossing arbitrary crap on the fire like and this a hyperbolic example "Must play for at least 3 years, authored either 5 WA resolutions or 3 issues, participated in R/D, has held at least 5 positions in various regions." because our current measure of "game changing" as a minimum is the ridiculous thing here.

Comfed wrote:For one thing, OOC stuff says OOC, and does not belong in the Security Council. I disagree, it didn't used to.


The change to make C/C completely IC was a terrible decision and it absolutely did not used to be that way. It leaves out such a large part of the community, worthy of praise and left the negative connation of the old OOC condemns stuck to it. I've been playing this game for close to 8 + years on various accounts and this was genuinely one of the worst decisions.

Comfed wrote:Have one’s C/C repealed and then replaced isn’t a punishment, it is merely making one’s C/C better.


Replaced yeah, but that doesn't always happen as a matter of fact recently it's happening less and less. Wintony, Mark, this one potentially.
Are all recent repeals based on the writing that offered no replacement at all. Two's a coincidence, three is a bloody pattern and that's what we're headed towards.

If placements where being prompted and actually done, I probably wouldn't be so up in arms. I'd still be critical of a few things, but they're not being put forward.


Comfed wrote:What do you mean by more flavourful/personal anyways?


I feel like some of the best SC and GA proposals are the tongue in cheek ones, but lately it's all lists and no personality.
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