[PASSED] Repeal "Commend the Western Isles"

[Shanzie]

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the commendation as it was written. I just didn't think the tone was appropriate. Your criticisms are absolutely right.

Thank you.

Naturally, I'd be happy to amend the tone if you have any specific examples. Just a clause or phrase should be fine for me to know what to tweak.

The changes you made earlier are fine. Ill reread to see if you still have some of the more aggressive wording

The only thing I see left is the ridiculous bit under the "noticing" column

[Aruia]

Regarding the points that this is a "personal attack" coming from Shanzie and Aruia (two members of TWI), I've made it clear above — when talking to Pluvie — that I don't know Cesnica, and therefore have no personal grievances with him. I understand that I may read my proposal with a different tone than how others read it, so I have offered to — and will — make any reasonable changes regarding the tone that others suggest. I have already made all of Pluvie's suggestions. I will not, however, waver on the gestalt of my proposal: that the commendation was poorly written and did not adequately convey what made the Western Isles impressive, and that that is the fault of the author, not unreasonable standards.

Seeing as my other option is to argue that TWI isn't commendable (which is neither true nor in your best interest, Shanzie/Aruia), that message is crafted to be ideal for the Western Isles. Therefore, your respective positions as the two most fervent critics of this draft makes the Western Isles appear incredibly defensive, and Shanzie's own usage of the word "we" in regards to TWI implies that Shanzie is attempting to speak on behalf of the region. That alloyed with Aruia's accusations of the WA elite gatekeeping shows that you two seem more interested in getting a commendation than reflecting well on TWI. I suspect that's why Shanzie (and I assume also Aruia) was told off by both the author and others, according to Greater Cesnica.

ill focus on this part and mainly what is bold cause its relevant to me.
To me, the choice of words in the repeals body was poor choice because of what already stated it reflect and comes off. Note, that i never said that its your sincere feelings or intention towards the writer.
I would like you to note also that in several cases i wrote that no matter the outcome of the voting the gesture the came from the resolution are far more valuable or matter than the badge.
My opinion on "gatekeepers" in this matter is irrelevant, because what matters here is that majority who support the repeal feel that the initial resolution was not worded in a way that sincerely reflects a resolution or how a command should be for those who gameplay and play the WA game to its highest extent. But it was not worded like that, and with stuff i read from nations (who won't be named because i am not going to do incitement) it's understandable why the initial writings came off or radiated what they did.
I think the writer and people who seek to fix something that is important to them including you are being understood, because its not being swallowed to a cynical debate filled with an excuse of "it simply didn't convince me".

but either way, i stand behind my intentions to vote in favor no matter the way its gonna be sent, because:
1) there is a bigger picture of people feeling it doesn't reflect a sincere WA resolution and it should be respected just as much.
2) with or without a command, the gesture and discussion shown more than what the badge or numbers would show.
3) If some players would sleep better at night knowing, an isolationist region doesn't have a badge from the WA, by all means.
4) both writers work hard on making the effort and pushing their effort no reason to deny it, and that the main voices kept a civilized and none vilifying or personal dialog.

hope this clears things up.

[Bormiar]

Regarding the points that this is a "personal attack" coming from Shanzie and Aruia (two members of TWI), I've made it clear above — when talking to Pluvie — that I don't know Cesnica, and therefore have no personal grievances with him. I understand that I may read my proposal with a different tone than how others read it, so I have offered to — and will — make any reasonable changes regarding the tone that others suggest. I have already made all of Pluvie's suggestions. I will not, however, waver on the gestalt of my proposal: that the commendation was poorly written and did not adequately convey what made the Western Isles impressive, and that that is the fault of the author, not unreasonable standards.

Seeing as my other option is to argue that TWI isn't commendable (which is neither true nor in your best interest, Shanzie/Aruia), that message is crafted to be ideal for the Western Isles. Therefore, your respective positions as the two most fervent critics of this draft makes the Western Isles appear incredibly defensive, and Shanzie's own usage of the word "we" in regards to TWI implies that Shanzie is attempting to speak on behalf of the region. That alloyed with Aruia's accusations of the WA elite gatekeeping shows that you two seem more interested in getting a commendation than reflecting well on TWI. I suspect that's why Shanzie (and I assume also Aruia) was told off by both the author and others, according to Greater Cesnica.

ill focus on this part and mainly what is bold cause its relevant to me.
To me, the choice of words in the repeals body was poor choice because of what already stated it reflect and comes off. Note, that i never said that its your sincere feelings or intention towards the writer.

Fair enough.

I would like you to note also that in several cases i wrote that no matter the outcome of the voting the gesture the came from the resolution are far more valuable or matter than the badge.

nods

My opinion on "gatekeepers" in this matter is irrelevant, because what matters here is that majority who support the repeal feel that the initial resolution was not worded in a way that sincerely reflects a resolution or how a command should be for those who gameplay and play the WA game to its highest extent. But it was not worded like that, and with stuff i read from nations (who won't be named because i am not going to do incitement) it's understandable why the initial writings came off or radiated what they did.

I think the writer and people who seek to fix something that is important to them including you are being understood, because its not being swallowed to a cynical debate filled with an excuse of "it simply didn't convince me".

nods again

but either way, i stand behind my intentions to vote in favor no matter the way its gonna be sent, because:
1) there is a bigger picture of people feeling it doesn't reflect a sincere WA resolution and it should be respected just as much.
2) with or without a command, the gesture and discussion shown more than what the badge or numbers would show.
3) If some players would sleep better at night knowing, an isolationist region doesn't have a badge from the WA, by all means.
4) both writers work hard on making the effort and pushing their effort no reason to deny it, and that the main voices kept a civilized and none vilifying or personal dialog.

hope this clears things up.

It does. On point 3, I don't agree with the hypothetical player who doesn't believe an isolationist region should be commended, and let me be clear: my intention is not to deny TWI a commendation.

[Wallenburg]

I'd prefer to see a replacement ready before supporting such a repeal.

[Bormiar]

Given that this is an insta-repeal (and that repeals generally don't need so much drafting), I was hoping to submit this so it went at vote behind "Commend Verdant Haven". Incidentally, that would mean that I'd have to submit it either on Christmas or Christmas Eve — which wouldn't be fair to delegates — or I'd have to submit it before then — which wouldn't be enough time for a last call. I'm going to check with Noah and see if he's going to submit Commend 1vfe soon (which has been on last call since the 12th), which would mean that I'm going to submit this early next week.

Naturally, I'm flexible, so if someone says they have a lot of suggestions and need more time to write them out, I'd happily postpone the submission.

[Wallenburg]

Given that this is an insta-repeal (and that repeals generally don't need so much drafting), I was hoping to submit this so it went at vote behind "Commend Verdant Haven". Incidentally, that would mean that I'd have to submit it either on Christmas or Christmas Eve — which wouldn't be fair to delegates — or I'd have to submit it before then — which wouldn't be enough time for a last call. I'm going to check with Noah and see if he's going to submit Commend 1vfe soon (which has been on last call since the 12th), which would mean that I'm going to submit this early next week.

Naturally, I'm flexible, so if someone says they have a lot of suggestions and need more time to write them out, I'd happily postpone the submission.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that repeals need less drafting, nor why it's okay to rush a repeal but not the target of the repeal. It's not like the commendation is doing harm while it is in effect.

[Bormiar]

Given that this is an insta-repeal (and that repeals generally don't need so much drafting), I was hoping to submit this so it went at vote behind "Commend Verdant Haven". Incidentally, that would mean that I'd have to submit it either on Christmas or Christmas Eve — which wouldn't be fair to delegates — or I'd have to submit it before then — which wouldn't be enough time for a last call. I'm going to check with Noah and see if he's going to submit Commend 1vfe soon (which has been on last call since the 12th), which would mean that I'm going to submit this early next week.

Naturally, I'm flexible, so if someone says they have a lot of suggestions and need more time to write them out, I'd happily postpone the submission.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that repeals need less drafting, nor why it's okay to rush a repeal but not the target of the repeal. It's not like the commendation is doing harm while it is in effect.

They do because they're easier to write.

As I said, if anyone has any suggestions, I'll delay it happily. That's not "rushing", as you put it. So Wally, if you have any reason for me to hold off, please tell me. Unless your reason is to hold off for the sake of holding off.

This is a speedy resolution because it's... just so goddamn simple. It's mostly just "the resolution didn't explain why the nominee was commendable"— the simplest reason that a resolution could be repealed. For that reason I'd be shocked if there were more than a modicum of interest in this repeal following that bit of drama above. Who (except for me ofc) wants to sit around making tweaks to a draft like this?

I really love receiving your suggestions and making necessary adjustments — it's just fun for me. So I would love it if somebody came in and told me they had all these big changes they wanted me to make before submitting, and I would absolutely hold off in that scenario. But I see no reason to sit around twiddling my thumbs just because one or two absolutist SCers have the idea that there's a minimum, necessary drafting time, no matter the circumstance.

The difference between this and the resolution's rushing was that Cesnica rushed it even when people were telling him to make major changes to his draft.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Just a couple of suggestions for minor changes to the text.

Certain that the main problem with “Commend the Western Isles” is that it’s predominantly a laundry list of treaties the Western Isles made. Any old region can make treaties, but SC#336 does not contextualize them or explain why those treaties are of any note,

I think “Any region” reads better.

Elaborating that the mere organization of “Commend the Western Isles” sabotages itself; it is merely a list of treaty names, none of which are elaborated on beyond an encyclopedic, dispassionate description which fails to adequately convey why the treaties are impressive or stray from the norm,

Possibly remove “mere” as you use “merely” just a bit later.

As I said just minor changes, the bulk of the text demolishes the Commendation quite nicely.

[Bormiar]

Just a couple of suggestions for minor changes to the text.

Certain that the main problem with “Commend the Western Isles” is that it’s predominantly a laundry list of treaties the Western Isles made. Any old region can make treaties, but SC#336 does not contextualize them or explain why those treaties are of any note,

I think “Any region” reads better.

Elaborating that the mere organization of “Commend the Western Isles” sabotages itself; it is merely a list of treaty names, none of which are elaborated on beyond an encyclopedic, dispassionate description which fails to adequately convey why the treaties are impressive or stray from the norm,

Possibly remove “mere” as you use “merely” just a bit later.

As I said just minor changes, the bulk of the text demolishes the Commendation quite nicely.

Both changed, thank you.

[Shanzie]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that repeals need less drafting, nor why it's okay to rush a repeal but not the target of the repeal. It's not like the commendation is doing harm while it is in effect.

They do because they're easier to write.

As I said, if anyone has any suggestions, I'll delay it happily. That's not "rushing", as you put it. So Wally, if you have any reason for me to hold off, please tell me. Unless your reason is to hold off for the sake of holding off.

This is a speedy resolution because it's... just so goddamn simple. It's mostly just "the resolution didn't explain why the nominee was commendable"— the simplest reason that a resolution could be repealed. For that reason I'd be shocked if there were more than a modicum of interest in this repeal following that bit of drama above. Who (except for me ofc) wants to sit around making tweaks to a draft like this?

I really love receiving your suggestions and making necessary adjustments — it's just fun for me. So I would love it if somebody came in and told me they had all these big changes they wanted me to make before submitting, and I would absolutely hold off in that scenario. But I see no reason to sit around twiddling my thumbs just because one or two absolutist SCers have the idea that there's a minimum, necessary drafting time, no matter the circumstance.

The difference between this and the resolution's rushing was that Cesnica rushed it even when people were telling him to make major changes to his draft.

The reason the commendation was "rushed" was a lack of solid feedback. Only a couple people commented

[Bormiar]

The reason the commendation was "rushed" was a lack of solid feedback. Only a couple people commented

Naturally, there's nothing (or very little) to comment on, so there's neither a problem nor someone to blame.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

The reason the commendation was "rushed" was a lack of solid feedback. Only a couple people commented

Utter bollocks. Electrum, Praeceps, Cretox State, myself and a couple of others all provided solid feedback. Go and have a read through the thread.

The problem was the author didn’t want feedback, they just wanted praise.

[Greater Cesnica]

The reason the commendation was "rushed" was a lack of solid feedback. Only a couple people commented

they just wanted praise.

Not true, I wanted TWI to get a commendation.

[Bormiar]

The reason the commendation was "rushed" was a lack of solid feedback. Only a couple people commented

Utter bollocks. Electrum, Praeceps, Cretox State, myself and a couple of others all provided solid feedback. Go and have a read through the thread.

The problem was the author didn’t want feedback, they just wanted praise.

Lol I interpreted that as a really hard change of tone on my draft before realizing Shanzie was talking about SC#336 (not my repeal). That’ll explain my reply to Shanzie, a clear misinterpretation of their post.

[Comfed]

they just wanted praise.

Not true, I wanted TWI to get a commendation.

Then you shouldn’t have rushed it to vote, or this wouldn’t be happening. Take your time next draft.

[Havalland]

I say we condemn the western isles lol.

[Pluvie]

So I’m taking another look at this res, looks like a solid amount of changes have been made, and one thing strikes me the second time reading through it. And that is that the first two clauses seem to list similar/the same thing. The first remarks that the resolution being a laundry list of treaties is the main issue and the next just lists that it’s a list of treaties with no context. I feel like these could maybe be combined or changed slightly to represent two different things? As it is, it seems redundant to have both clauses in there

[Bormiar]

So I’m taking another look at this res, looks like a solid amount of changes have been made, and one thing strikes me the second time reading through it. And that is that the first two clauses seem to list similar/the same thing. The first remarks that the resolution being a laundry list of treaties is the main issue and the next just lists that it’s a list of treaties with no context. I feel like these could maybe be combined or changed slightly to represent two different things? As it is, it seems redundant to have both clauses in there

The clauses are slightly different, as I wouldn’t want it to appear redundant at first glance (I suppose I succeeded in your case). The reason I had two clauses was mostly to emphasize (I really wanted to hammer down how lackluster and important those diplomacy clauses were), but also organization.

So if you don’t mind, I’d like to be slightly stubborn on this one. Maybe someone has a second opinion? Just to break the tie.

[Pluvie]

So I’m taking another look at this res, looks like a solid amount of changes have been made, and one thing strikes me the second time reading through it. And that is that the first two clauses seem to list similar/the same thing. The first remarks that the resolution being a laundry list of treaties is the main issue and the next just lists that it’s a list of treaties with no context. I feel like these could maybe be combined or changed slightly to represent two different things? As it is, it seems redundant to have both clauses in there

The clauses are slightly different, as I wouldn’t want it to appear redundant at first glance (I suppose I succeeded in your case). The reason I had two clauses was mostly to emphasize (I really wanted to hammer down how lackluster and important those diplomacy clauses were), but also organization.

So if you don’t mind, I’d like to be slightly stubborn on this one. Maybe someone has a second opinion? Just to break the tie.

Totally reasonable If the goal is to hammer in that particular point however, I would note that you say in the first clause that it’s the main issue with the proposal, which feels to me like a heavy statement as it is. Notably I can also see the argument for the second clause as it does provide a little bit more in depth reasoning as to exactly what is wrong with the treaties. So either way works but if you do keep both clauses maybe try and change the wording a little bit? Make them seem a little less redundant? You did say that was a goal of yours and I’m sure I’m not the only one to notice it. I’d point out that the start of both clauses is rather similar, you could maybe try editing the wording on those opening statements? But also, reasonable if you do plan on keeping as-is.

[WayNeacTia]

I'd prefer to see a replacement ready before supporting such a repeal.

Or we could, you know....... not? Since you seem to be such a huge fan, please elaborate exactly what TWI has done to make the community a better place? Vancouvia passed one whole resolution, which was very quickly repealed. They are a little isolationist region and nothing more. Their population has been dropping for quite some time now. In fact Vancouvia's endorsement count is a third of what it used to be. That it? That's really all it takes these days to get a commendation?

they just wanted praise.

Not true, I wanted TWI to get a commendation.

Bullshit. You were seeking attention. Nothing less, nothing more.

[Balnik]

I am in agreement with a replacement. I do believe that the current commendation does not represent the aspects of the region that have influenced the site properly.

[WayNeacTia]

I am in agreement with a replacement. I do believe that the current commendation does not represent the aspects of the region that have influenced the site properly.

Please, do elaborate on that influence please?

[Comfed]

I am in agreement with a replacement. I do believe that the current commendation does not represent the aspects of the region that have influenced the site properly.

TWI has influenced the site? How have they done so, besides yelling that GP is corrupted?

[Bormiar]

I am in agreement with a replacement. I do believe that the current commendation does not represent the aspects of the region that have influenced the site properly.

Please, do elaborate on that influence please?

I am in agreement with a replacement. I do believe that the current commendation does not represent the aspects of the region that have influenced the site properly.

TWI has influenced the site? How have they done so, besides yelling that GP is corrupted?

He's on our side guys >_>. And all he's saying is the commendation didn't impress anything upon him.

[Aizcona]

I am in agreement with a replacement. I do believe that the current commendation does not represent the aspects of the region that have influenced the site properly.

TWI has influenced the site? How have they done so, besides yelling that GP is corrupted?

It's funny that us messing around 3 years ago still gets to you.

Nonetheless as for how has TWI influenced the site? Well that's a bit hard to quantify isn't it in comparison to what you guys normally do? Most WA resolutions it seems have to deal with the interconnectivity of the WA and R/D gameplay, although the R/D stuff seems to be more in the past with changes to the site. Or maybe I'm just not noticing it so much anymore. Either way RP to me feels underrepresented in terms of what it means to NS. In my mind RP is the best part of NS and probably the best thing to come out of it, following in the footsteps of the writer who created this site. And when I say RP I mean neither this WA stuff nor the Portal to the Multiverse stuff. Plus in my mind R/D is probably the worst part of this site and the fact that that stuff is what alot of the SC resolutions have been about is kind of telling what influence means to the majority of you, especially in TNP I would imagine.

Getting back to TWI's influence, we have produced some of the best RP and nationbuilding on this site. We've curated an expanse of knowledge on how to do it well from military, economic, cultural, environmental, and more perspectives. Our Art and our dispatch styles have been used by many people which the best way to see that is whenever one of our members would see their dispatch be posted on another Regions WFE as a reference. In addition to this we have done this from a solely isolationalist perspective, building from the ground up. Creating a very well functioning regional government that helps its regional members even in its third addition. We've been very high on members although recently we've stabilized to a more reasonable number than back when we had 800 nations.

At the end of the day we've had a rich history as a region. Our contributions to this site is all onsite, we haven't done our RP in other places like other regions and we have a clean RMB taking good use of the forums with our [TWI Only] tags that can often be seen.

For me I don't really care too much how TWI gets a commendation, I'm just happy that it has received it as I thoroughly believe it does deserve it. And I believe that its nice that the WA does recognize that RP regions contribute to the shared history of this site that is quite nice and interesting.

I don't much know how to quantify that for a SC thing though as honestly this mix of IC and OOC confuses me. Whatever you guys go with is what happens but the fact that a commendation did pass makes me happy.

Here's some factbooks at least to see what I'm talking about,
Tutorial Factbook: Nationbuilding
Tutorial Dispatch: Government and Politics Part 2
So You Want To Design Your Economy?
Guide to Nuclear Weapons and Refinement
Making Vehicle Art, The Corindi Way
Our Welcome dispatch
Our map which is the highest upvoted one on NS, Top 20 dispatch
Our third and current Constitution which has enabled an extremely stable region

These are just some overarching factbooks but you can find high quality factbooks among most of our members.

Along with that you can find multiple of our members, notably Corindia, Miklania, and Alteran Republics prowling around art and military threads.